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Exorcisms


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#31    ShaunZero

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:09 AM

We're saying that when it comes to such cases, it is in fact possession and NOT a mental illness. Do you believe in demons possessing people?

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#32    TheEssenceofExcellence

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:21 AM

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You are confirming what i am saying E of E,  showing in your post in your own words the same thing I'm saying proving  this is a valid observation ,then your psot goes into how i    i am persecuting religion and am not the first to do this and  it doesn't mean this and how could I say this and its been topped off with an wagging finger oh you better not say that sheri' this is the standard post by religion IME  nasmaste Sheri


When someone figures out how to respond to nonesensical ramblings let me know.......then i'll reply to that post by sheri.

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#33    Sherapy

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:26 AM

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Sheri like Zero tried to say for me before I saw your other post.....  I was talking about how possessed people don't show any signs, they get possessed over night and then they have doctors trying to tell them they're mentally ill which they aren't.  Like you have even said mentally ill people don't manifest an illness over night it happens over time, with many signs in between.  Possessed people don't show these signs, they are perfectly fine and then suddenly exhibit signs of possession.
Thanks Zero, I like it too.

I'm sorry let me clear this up mentally ill and possessed are the same things again i know about this first hand (my moms converstation with me gave me insight i asked her what she experinced she said her  mental illness lead her to believe she was possessed, in retrospect there were symptoms, I have taked in depth with her and a few others i have known, Why are you so sure and based on what besides hearsay are you Stating this is s FACT ...Zero that possession and mental illness are two entirely different things , Possession is the mental illness of the religious.


#34    Sherapy

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:38 AM

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When someone figures out how to respond to nonesensical ramblings let me know.......then i'll reply to that post by sheri.

I'm repeating your post to me and you call mine nonsensical ........alrighty then I can see this is going no where thankyou for the conversation we will just have to agree to disagree
grin2.gif Namaste Sheri


#35    ShaunZero

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:46 AM

We just explained to you how they are NOT the same thing. You even said so yourself. When a person has no signs or reason to become mentaly ill, but become "possessed", then it is NOT mental illness, because mental illness does not come on that way.

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#36    Sherapy

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:58 AM

I know this subject very well i have had a few whom are very close to me who have suffered with mental illness and i have talked with them in depth, my mother happens to be one. You want to beleive in possessions i would ask why, mental illness doesn't just happen its a process over time. have either of you looked into this subject or you getting your facts from church??

They are the same thing i used the word interchangeably Zero My mother who was mentally ill thought she was possessed. she cussed 'god' too  and she's religious now and was then. My mother -n-law was mentally ill thought she was possessed she wouldn't get help she had alot of symtoms Zero and we all saw that we tried to get her help  i know this area very well , i spent years with doctors and what not. she was also very religous


#37    ShaunZero

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 08:20 AM

People who have no signs of mental illness, or reason to be, become "possessed", so what is it if it's not mental illness? They speak in languages they never even knew, they cuss out God, and do very odd things that go hand in hand with possession.

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#38    Celumnaz

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:11 PM

Anytime I've heard of a "real" exorcism, it's been after mental illness if pretty much ruled out.  As they said on the program, when the interviewer talks to the persons doctors and the doctors say things like "we've tried everything and don't even know what's wrong" is when the interviewers generally say they start looking at cases.

They're not talking about a bunch of so called religious nuts swarming a person so they can "feel" holy.  That's akin to comparing that guy that tried to kill those kids to bring his girlfriend to life as a sterling example of a knowledgeable practicing pagan, and can be worse sometimes than not doing anything at all.

Mental illness and posession are different things that at times do seem similar and I'm sure there's misdiagnoses on both sides at times.

coasttocoastam.com rocks by the way, have been a subscriber for a few years now.  Great to have Art back!

Possession can also be fairly gradual at times too...  As that guy was saying, most of the time it comes from doctors that have been seeing patients and have exhausted encyclopedia medica, have (even though unbeliever) come to the conclusion that something else is wrong, and state point blank that they cannot offer this as a diagnosis, they will be ridiculed by the community, and is therefore unreported and left as something they just don't talk about for the most part.

Statements like, "I can't believe in this.  It's your problem now."


#39    newbloodmoon

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 07:11 AM

Misdiagnosis happens on both sides no denying that.  I would rather find out that someone is suffering from a mental illness and to have them medically treated versus having them thrashing around in a chair frothing at the mouth with people around them when they have a bonefide medical condition.

On the other hand when a doctor, after consulting their peers along with consulting the various books of medicine with no diagnosis then possession could be looked at with some credibility.  

On one hand you have groups on both sides who will take an extremist view and yell until they are blue in the face to validate their point of view.  I have seen cases that have been helped from both sides of the fence.

But I don't expect people to embrace my points of view with open arms, I am human so I err at times.  And I often appreciate views from another angle brough to my attention.

Edited by newbloodmoon, 14 February 2006 - 07:14 AM.

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#40    TheEssenceofExcellence

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 04:45 AM

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I'm repeating your post to me and you call mine nonsensical ........alrighty then I can see this is going no where thankyou for the conversation we will just have to agree to disagree
grin2.gif Namaste Sheri


No, you didn't just repeat what I wrote and post it, you took a very clear statement and twisted it around in a nonsensical manner to make it sound like I supported your ideas....

Anyway, back on subject.  Possession is real and the proof is staring you and the rest of the skeptics right in the face.  The docotors know possession is real they just don't want to admit it because it doesn't intertwine with their scientific beliefs.  People who have been possessed, do and experience things that no other (so called) mentally ill patient does.  It goes against all of their medical knowledge........when they run tests on people and find no reason for an illness it's because they aren't sick!  The fact is, if possession was just a mentle illness there would be a brand NEW mental illness out there that they would have named, they haven't!  Because these people don't have any illness they can detect, they are possessed, and those dang on medical people know it.

Lets just look at the facts for a second shall we.....  When someone has a medical illness doctors diagnose them and perscribe medical treatment that fixes the problem.  In the case of possession a medical problem cannot be diagnosed, no medical treatment fixes the problem.  On the other hand, when possessed people (who have a spiritual problem not a medical one) go for spiritual help, they are diagnosed, perscribed a treatment (exorcism), they're treated and then cured, problem fixed.

Sometimes it takes more than one exorcism just like sometimes it takes more then one surgery or kemo treatment.  But in the end the patient is healed.  Facts are facts.

If exorcism wasn't real it wouldn't work, why can't scientific people just accept that?  Instead all you can say is that it's just their mind making them believe it works, whatever!  If that's true why aren't these doctor just telling every fatily ill patient their completely healed so there mind will fix them too?!

In short, to reitorate.......exorcism is real and there isn't any disputing it.

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#41    God's soldier

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:34 PM

For those of you who think that possession is a state of mental illness it doesn't work like that. If that person knows demons are possessing her/him, and they know what is going on, and somone convinces them they are crazy don't mean they are crazy. Ever heard that crazy people don't know they are crazy? I have much exprerience with mentally ill people such as skitzophernics, one of my family has this mental illness, and we always have to tell her what she hears isn't there, crazy people don't know they are crazy.

What about when others witness these demonic attacks, such as crosses being turned up side down, or chair being thrown, or powerful strength and the length of time the person can keep it up. Or have you concidered how the possessed would know secrets such as which no one could have possibly told them.

Also these attacks usually come because of the evil eye, so to speak if a witch/wizard type person trys cursing the other person, its not cursing which happens, but sending demons into anothers body or mind.

Like another person said, full blown mental illness does not happen over night.


#42    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:49 PM

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No, you didn't just repeat what I wrote and post it, you took a very clear statement and twisted it around in a nonsensical manner to make it sound like I supported your ideas....

Anyway, back on subject.  Possession is real and the proof is staring you and the rest of the skeptics right in the face.  The docotors know possession is real they just don't want to admit it because it doesn't intertwine with their scientific beliefs.  People who have been possessed, do and experience things that no other (so called) mentally ill patient does.  It goes against all of their medical knowledge........when they run tests on people and find no reason for an illness it's because they aren't sick!  The fact is, if possession was just a mentle illness there would be a brand NEW mental illness out there that they would have named, they haven't!  Because these people don't have any illness they can detect, they are possessed, and those dang on medical people know it.

Lets just look at the facts for a second shall we.....  When someone has a medical illness doctors diagnose them and perscribe medical treatment that fixes the problem.  In the case of possession a medical problem cannot be diagnosed, no medical treatment fixes the problem.  On the other hand, when possessed people (who have a spiritual problem not a medical one) go for spiritual help, they are diagnosed, perscribed a treatment (exorcism), they're treated and then cured, problem fixed.

Sometimes it takes more than one exorcism just like sometimes it takes more then one surgery or kemo treatment.  But in the end the patient is healed.  Facts are facts.

If exorcism wasn't real it wouldn't work, why can't scientific people just accept that?  Instead all you can say is that it's just their mind making them believe it works, whatever!  If that's true why aren't these doctor just telling every fatily ill patient their completely healed so there mind will fix them too?!

In short, to reitorate.......exorcism is real and there isn't any disputing it.

This is all your opinion. In the scientific world(and the rational one), it does not exist.


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#43    Azalin

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

I am quite adept with exorcism / demonology / and the history of demonic possession. I can very much assure demonic possession is real.

First of all, my brother is a schizophrenic. I have been to classes on schizophrenia in order to cope with his illness and ways to treat it. I have talked to a number of pyschiatrists and read a number of books regarding it to have a good knowledge of what my loving brother was dealing with. I have met a number of people with this disease as I visited him in the hospital a number of times, and I have grown to see certain symptoms of it that differ from demonic possession.

The first and foremost thing I find between demonic possession and mental illnesses is the fact the possessed victim will state that he is in fact possessed. A person that believes they are possessed will come asking for help, however, a person with a mental illness does not believe anything is wrong, they instead believe they are above the average person. They think everyone else is crazy, and they have been enlightened. A possessed victim will want to be cured, and in order to even perform a ritual exorcism, permission needs to be granted from the victim. Schizophrenic victims believe they are right, and all others are wrong, so why would they accept such a fate. It takes months, and sometimes years to convince a mentally ill person to take medications to see if it helps them. However, possessed victims will visit a number of psychiatrists asking what is wrong with them, and how it can be cured.

Before exorcisms are thought of, the possessed victim must see a number of psychiatrists to see if it is in fact a mental illness. Many of possessed victims are then SENT to roman catholics or orthodox churches looking for a bishop that will approve an exorcism, because all medicine has failed. Exorcists in this day and age are being rigorously trained in psychiatry to debate mental illness or demonic influence. Even when a priest has come to the conclusion, a board vote within the church has to be cast in order to get permission from a bishop for them perform an exorcism. Valid exorcisms by the church are not done spare of the moment, it is a step by step process of elimination that is carefully regarded as a last step hope, and in the case of demonic possession, the only hope.

Demonic possession is on a rise, and the church is teaching more classes on demonic possessions in Rome then ever from priests who have said to have been face to face with these victims. If anyone has any questions on Demonic Possessions , Exorcisms, or Demonology, feel free to PM me for information.

God Bless,

Edited by Azalin, 15 February 2006 - 10:31 PM.

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#44    zandore

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:43 PM

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Anyway, back on subject.  Possession is real and the proof is staring you and the rest of the skeptics right in the face.  

By chance do you have any references that you could share?

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#45    Permakid

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 10:02 AM

Would someone please direct me to the seating section for "skeptics"?  I think I'd like to stay a while in this thread...... Thanks!  wink2.gif

Now that I'm comfy, I'd like to address some of the points one at a time.

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People who have been possessed, do and experience things that no other (so called) mentally ill patient does.

Just because psychiatry hasn't yet classified a particular mental illness doesn't mean that illness doesn't exist.

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On the other hand when a doctor, after consulting their peers along with consulting the various books of medicine with no diagnosis then possession could be looked at with some credibility.

I think that would be another case of using religious beliefs to explain what we don't understand.  (IMO, a primary reason that religion exists in the first place)

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What about when others witness these demonic attacks, such as crosses being turned up side down, or chair being thrown...

Where can I find reliable evidence of such occurrences?  Note: witness testimony is not often reliable.  Just ask a police officer or judge.

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When a person has no signs or reason to become mentaly ill, but become "possessed", then it is NOT mental illness, because mental illness does not come on that way.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree again.  The sudden onset of the psychotic symptoms of schizophrenia, for example, is very common especially in adolescents.  Need a reference?  Do a Google search for "sudden onset" and "schizophrenia" and I'm sure you'll find plenty.

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On the other hand, when possessed people (who have a spiritual problem not a medical one) go for spiritual help, they are diagnosed, perscribed a treatment (exorcism), they're treated and then cured, problem fixed.

Again, I think it is erroneous to jump to the conclusion that demonic possession exists based on such anecdotal evidence.  I tend to lean toward the "power of suggestion" argument on this one.  I also don't think they're necessarily cured when they stop behaving strangely. The underlying emotional/mental issues that caused those symptoms to arise may still be present.
QUOTE
The first and foremost thing I find between demonic possession and mental illnesses is the fact the possessed victim will state that he is in fact possessed.  A person that believes they are possessed will come asking for help, however, a person with a mental illness does not believe anything is wrong, they instead believe they are above the average person.

Denial of their illness is common in schizophrenics, manic depressives and others.  However, such denial is not persistent in other types of mental illness.  When it comes to this issue, maybe a good comparison for the "possessed" would be hypochondriacs.  They know there is a problem, but they misconstrue what the problem actually is.


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