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Spanking Children- Is it a Viable Punishment?


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#16    firefemme1202

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:11 PM

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Children aren't as mature as adults. Ok. Children don't always take to heart what you tell them. Ok.

So because a child is "immature", they need to be spanked?  When a person or child is being immature, you rationalize with them.  It does work as long as the child is at least 3 or 4, they understand "don't do that it's bad (and tell them WHY)" and then they respect you for that.  Spanking the child will simply make them fear the spanking and not respect the parent, hence, more bad behaviour.  Every parent and authority figure wants to be respected and not feared (well, most anyways) and this cannot be achieved by physical punishment.

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Some children can easily learn if you tell them what they did is bad and why, some children don't. Ok?

Some children will obey their parents more readily than other children, yes, but this does not mean they are incapable of learning and by no means does the child need to be spanked.  Raising a child is difficult.  If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so many abortions and adoptions and babies found in dumpsters.  Just like if a child is having trouble learning to read when they are 5, or learning fractions at 8, or learning to do physics at 15, or driving at 16, life is difficult and is a constant learning process.  But that means the TEACHER, or in the case of a parent and child, the PARENT, must take the time to understand the reason the subject is difficult for the child or person.  They must find a way to communicate to the child or person in a way that they will learn.  If every person that had to learn something new got spanked because they didn't catch on as quickly as others, every person in the world would need a spanking.  It's illogical.  If a child is dyslexic and the parent just spanks the child because they repeatedly bring home F's for not reading, is that right?  The parent would, by your method, take the easy way out by spanking the child because the parent has told them over and over again to apply themselves and learn to read.  But what about the child?  They can't read because of a disease, but the parent isn't TAKING THE TIME to communicate with the child to discover this issue.  

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I think we can agree on that...? Anyway, as you said, not every child is the same. There are very disruptive children that just don't learn when you try and explain something to them. Spanking, in this situation, is a viable punishment. That doesn't mean after the child calms down you can't tell explain to them then what they did wrong. Then, if the child begans to learn, you don't need to spank your child again. It should be reserved only if the child gets really out of control and won't listen.

A parent must be able to understand the child's difficulty in properly obeying or the parent isn't being a good PARENT.  A parent is there to teach the child and raise them to be good and understand right from wrong.  I know many people who were not spanked as children and they actually seem like more stable people than the friends I have who were spanked.  I understand a lot of factors go into that, but look at it from the parent's perspective.  A parent who spanks their children will continue that method until the child is grown.  Not by spanking the child, but by taking the easy way out.  If the parent doesn't communicate with the child, then that means the parent is closing off from the child.  This is a pattern that the parent continues to follow which causes their child in the future to disobey.  The parent gets a call from the principal and is told their child is expelled for punching a teacher.  The parent decides, "ok, if my child wants to be bad, then I will send him off to military school so he can learn to listen."  The parent is taking the easy way out.  The child continued the pattern of disobeying because of lack of respect for the parent to do the right thing.  The parent continued the pattern of "taking the easy way out" by not communicating with the child, and in turn, the causes the child to behave worse.  

When a baby is born and the mother and father hold the baby in their arms and that extreme feeling of euphoria that fills the parent's hearts is perhaps the most wonderful feeling the world.  A parents emotions and feelings and natural instincts are there for a reason.  That guilty feeling a parent gets after spanking a child comes for a reason.  It is not viable to spank a child.  It is not a good punishment in order for a child to learn.  The parent needs to be consistent with time-outs or the taking away of privileges in order to make the child learn properly.  Just like when a child is having a hard time learning how to read, if the child is taking a long time to learn that running out into the street is wrong, they the parent needs to find another method, aside from spanking, that will make the child learn.  Instead of putting the child into time-out, sit down with them and explain that the child will no longer get to see Mom and Dad because they will have to live underground forever if they run into the street.  Put it in terms they understand.  Children must know WHY something is wrong before they can do the right thing, and it will take a while to learn.  It's not easy to teach the child right from wrong, but that's what parenting is all about, the trials and tribulations, and in the end, the reward and pride of having raised an amazing child the RIGHT way.

Edited by firefemme1202, 25 April 2006 - 05:12 PM.

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#17    Carajbu

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 06:59 AM

If you shouldn't feel guilty about spanking your child. If you do, something's wrong.

What's wrong with spanking your child? Honestly? Some parents are lazy. People always want to take the easy way out. I don't agree with you about spanking being the easy way out. Even if it was, it's not like spanking your kid is going scar them for freaking ever.

Sometimes you just CAN'T rationalise with your child. CHILDREN DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO THEIR PARENTS ALL THE TIME. whoever told you any different is wrong.

Just talking to the kid won't always work. You need to show the kid who's boss. I'm not going to let some brat throw toys around in my house and tell them that's wrong and leave it alone.

So if a kid draws all over the wall how would you punish them? The point is that the kids associate the thing they did wrong with spanking and they'll remember not to do that again. Maybe when they get older you could talk to them about what they did wrong.

I don't know if you had perfect parents, but I'm still a pretty bad kid and I'll admit sometimes the things I do I SHOULD be spanked. But my parents don't spank me, they ground me.
You can't ground a three year old. It doesn't work out. A 14 year old and a 3 year old are at a different maturity level and need to be punished differently.
So, spanking is a viable punishment for some parents.
this is really pointless because all we're doing is repeating ourselves in different ways.

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#18    firefemme1202

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 03:55 PM

Post 4

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If you shouldn't feel guilty about spanking your child. If you do, something's wrong.

My guess is that you don't have children of your own then.  Neither do I, but I live with my two nieces and nephew and in the beginning, I spanked them for discipline but I always hated it and I always felt guilty.  It's a natural feeling because no parent or guardian should have to hit their child for any reason.

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What's wrong with spanking your child? Honestly? Some parents are lazy. People always want to take the easy way out. I don't agree with you about spanking being the easy way out. Even if it was, it's not like spanking your kid is going scar them for freaking ever.

Sometimes you just CAN'T rationalise with your child. CHILDREN DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO THEIR PARENTS ALL THE TIME. whoever told you any different is wrong.

Just talking to the kid won't always work. You need to show the kid who's boss. I'm not going to let some brat throw toys around in my house and tell them that's wrong and leave it alone.

My nieces have been spanked since they hit their terrible twos (their 5 & 3 now).  Quite frankly, they never learned anything and all the explaining in the world helped.  So about 6 months ago, when their mother and I had enough of all the tantrums and them destroying the house for the 30 minutes they were awake and we were not (they flooded our bathroom and it took 3 days for the carpet to dry completely) I started getting online trying to find alternatives because it was obvious that spanking was NOT working.  It never had and it never would.  I visited numerous websites and implemented many of the things I read.  Their mother and I set rules, like not going into the kitchen AT ALL unless they ask one of us, or if they throw a tantrum, they go to their room, even if it's for two hours.  These are just a couple of the rules we implemented, along with no more spanking.  Over the course of the last 6 months, the kids (who used to go in the kitchen EVERY morning and get out all the food, poor out all the drinks, etc) don't set foot in the kitchen even if we're in there unless they ask first.  They almost never get punished because they listen a lot more now.  The reason they changed so drastically is for one simple reason.  Like you said, show them who's boss, but not with spanking.  Children become immune to spanking but not to time-outs when they want to play.  We gave them rewards when they were good and told them EVERY DAY that they are going to have a good day and we would go over the rules with them EVERY MORNING.  I've said it before and I will say it again; children need consistency.  They are CHILDREN.  You must take the time and put in the effort if you are to expect a good outcome.  You said "whoever told me differently is wrong" but what you fail to understand is that I did the research, their mother and I put in the time and effort and the children improved after we removed spanking as an option.  

The following is from this LINK and I think it speaks volumes.

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Many studies show the futility of spanking as a disciplinary technique, but none show its usefulness. In the past thirty years in pediatric practice, we have observed thousands of families who have tried spanking and found it doesn't work. Our general impression is that parents spank less as their experience increases. Spanking doesn't work for the child, for the parents, or for society. Spanking does not promote good behavior, it creates a distance between parent and child, and it contributes to a violent society. Parents who rely on punishment as their primary mode of discipline don't grow in their knowledge of their child. It keeps them from creating better alternatives, which would help them to know their child and build a better relationship. In the process of raising our own eight children, we have also concluded that spanking doesn't work. We found ourselves spanking less and less as our experience and the number of children increased. In our home, we have programmed ourselves against spanking and are committed to creating an attitude within our children, and an atmosphere within our home, that renders spanking unnecessary. Since spanking is not an option, we have been forced to come up with better alternatives. This has not only made us better parents, but in the long run we believe it has created more sensitive and well-behaved children.



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So if a kid draws all over the wall how would you punish them? The point is that the kids associate the thing they did wrong with spanking and they'll remember not to do that again. Maybe when they get older you could talk to them about what they did wrong.

Simple, you get them to scrub the wall.  They may need a time out first based on how riled up they get, but that depends on the child.  At some point, you talk to the child about why it's wrong.  

Here's a LINK for the following quote.

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Dr. Phil's advice: Ask yourself these three questions before the next time you go to spank your child.

Is Spanking a Calming Interaction?
If your goal is to get your child to calm down, chances are, hitting them doesn't bring he or she any closer to that. Your child will most likely understand hitting as a chaotic behavior, and instead of relaxing, your child will become more anxious and he or she will be more likely to return to his unruly behavior.

What Does Your Child Learn by Being Hit?
When you spank, you introduce chaos into your child's world. This tells him or her that violence is acceptable, and it's an OK way to react when you're mad. If your child is subdued, but continues to think of hitting as an acceptable behavior, is the trade-off worth it?

Is It Working for the Long-Term?
As Phil told Nickie and Brent, "If it's working so well, why does your child continue to push you to the edge?" Spanking your kids may work to suppress his or her bad behavior temporarily, but it isn't a learning type of discipline. The message they get from being spanked is "I'm a bad kid," which doesn't help your child figure out what he or she did wrong or how to keep from doing it again!


Exactly what he said...chaos is not going to help any situation, and nor will the act of hitting your child.  Some kids are more difficult than others, but that's like saying some kids need to be hit and some don't.  It doesn't work that way.  Discipline, whether made easy or difficult, is discipline.  Without PROPER discipline, the kids will not learn and not obey.  Spanking is not a viable punishment for the plain and simple reason that it's not a punishment.  It's a way for parents to ascert what they think is control over a situation.  The child acts out and they won't calm down.  The parent will naturally think spanking their child will give them control of the situation.  It doesn't.  What is the reason a parent will spank?  Because they want their child to stop being bad.  Gaining physical control over the child however does not mean that the parent gained EMOTIONAL control over the child.  The child is still upset, and even more so because their parent just spanked them.  Emotional actions (walking away from them until they are calm, staying calm as a parent yourself, making sure your child knows you love them and reward them for being good, praising them specifically, etc) are what will win the behaviour battle, not physical actions.

QUOTE(Qarrah @ Apr 27 2006, 01:59 AM) View Post

I don't know if you had perfect parents, but I'm still a pretty bad kid and I'll admit sometimes the things I do I SHOULD be spanked. But my parents don't spank me, they ground me.
You can't ground a three year old. It doesn't work out. A 14 year old and a 3 year old are at a different maturity level and need to be punished differently.
So, spanking is a viable punishment for some parents.
this is really pointless because all we're doing is repeating ourselves in different ways.

So the more mature a person, that gives more reason NOT to spank them?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your logic, that's like saying you should hit an ADHD kid because he can't control his hyperactivity.  It's illogical.  A child can't just be good because they don't have the consistency of being told not to do something and getting a proper punishment.  They can't control what they don't know.  The parent, however, can control how they teach.  Children need routine.  A daily routine to help them feel stable and balanced and a good/bad, right/wrong routine.  If a child is constantly drawing on a wall, then all their drawing pencils/crayons/markers need to be taken away.  A week or so later, ask them if they want to draw and when they say yes, tell them you don't want to give them back to her because you don't want them to draw on anything but the paper.  They will promise they won't and then give them to her.  Watch her for the first few minutes, check on her constantly, if she's being good, give her a hug and thank her for being a good listener and thank her for making you happy.  Emotional tug-of-wars is a parents best asset.  A child wants to loved and given good attention to so the parent needs to do it as much as possible.  It won't take long before they start to stay away from the bad things and focus more on what makes their parents happy and proud.  

It's been 6 months of this method with my nieces and their mother and I still have some daily battles.  However, we find that the amount of time we spend being mad at them and fighting with them is much less and the kids listen much better.  The 3 year old still throws tantrums sometimes, but that just means she's tired, can't get mad at her for that.  The 5 year old who used to get spanked 3 times a day and never said yes ma'am or listened and always got time outs is now only going to time out about once every couple days.  She almost always says yes ma'am and listens and constantly wants to do things to help me and her mother.  She wants to take out the trash, feed the cats, open the garage door, set the table, and in return, we let her get her own drink from the kitchen (since the rule is not to go in the kitchen, it's like a reward) and she gets to stay up an extra 30 minutes at night or get a piece of candy after dinner.  

This LINK is from the American Academy of Pediatrics and the quote below sums up their reasons not to spank.
QUOTE
--Spanking children <18 months of age increases the chance of physical injury, and the child is unlikely to understand the connection between the behavior and the punishment.
--Although spanking may result in a reaction of shock by the child and cessation of the undesired behavior, repeated spanking may cause agitated, aggressive behavior in the child that may lead to physical altercation between parent and child.
--Spanking models aggressive behavior as a solution to conflict and has been associated with increased aggression in preschool and school children.
--Spanking and threats of spanking lead to altered parent-child relationships, making discipline substantially more difficult when physical punishment is no longer an option, such as with adolescents.
--Spanking is no more effective as a long-term strategy than other approaches,18 and reliance on spanking as a discipline approach makes other discipline strategies less effective to use. Time-out and positive reinforcement of other behaviors are more difficult to implement and take longer to become effective when spanking has previously been a primary method of discipline.
--A pattern of spanking may be sustained or increased. Because spanking may provide the parent some relief from anger, the likelihood that the parent will spank the child in the future is increased.

The transistion from a spanking household to a no-spanking household is not easy.  Reminding a child every day what is good and bad, right and wrong is not easy.  Being creative in ways to find a punishment that fits the crime is not always easy.  As a parent, it's not always easy to control your temper when a child has just broken your favorite vase, or colored on your favorite picture.  The point of all if this though, parenting is not easy.  Spanking is not a viable punishment because it is a short term, unrealistic way to temporarily gain control of a battle that you will have with your child until they are 18 or move out.  A parents child will always do bad things, and as you said, you still do bad things.  But it is the parents responsibility to learn how to gain control of the situation without spanking when the child is young so that as they get older, the parent knows how to handle the situation properly, since, like you said, the older and more mature they are, the less realistic it is to spank them.  This is why the parent needs to learn how to discipline and punish properly while the child is young so they can handle the child as they get older and more mature.

Edited by Lottie, 01 May 2006 - 09:22 AM.

To suppose that earth is the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to believe that in an entire field sown with millet, only one grain will grow.  --Metrodorus of Chios, 4th century BCE

We adore chaos because we love to produce order.

#19    AztecInca

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 01:31 AM

Qarrah you have again failed to post within the 7-day time limit and if we deduct any more points from your score you will be heading for 0. You went over the two week limit earlier and I only allowed the debate to continue for the sake of your opponent. Your committment to this debate has been extremly poor of late and your last post highlights your lack of effort.I cannot allow this to go on any further, firefemme1202 you win by default.

Edited by AztecInca, 05 May 2006 - 01:31 AM.





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