26 replies to this topic

[AztecInca]

Debate suggestion by Neo2005

Is the spread of mulit-chain outlets such as Wal-mart worth the economic positives when it forces the "little guys" to go out of business?"


RamboIII will debate that these multi-chain outlets or "big box retailers" are worth it .

Falco Rex will debate that it is not worth the economic positives.

This will be a 1v1 formal debate.
An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant. No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will be tolerated.

Please be aware that:

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself or Tiddlyjen know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for up to 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

Aztec!

Edited by AztecInca, 28 June 2006 - 02:14 AM.

[RamboIII]

Rambo is certainly in this for....Pro Big boxes!
Good luck to whomever I may be debating!

Edited by RamboIII, 10 April 2006 - 10:57 PM.

[Falco Rex]

I've been out of this game for quite awhile..I wouldn't mind taking a swing at it; if nobody minds..

[tiddlyjen]

Looks like we have a debate!!!



(and of course we dont mind Falco!!

I'll go set it up right away, the best of luck to the both of you!

RamboIII will debate that these multi-chain outlets or "big box retailers" are worth it .

Falco Rex will debate that it is not worth the economic positives.

Edited by tiddlyjen, 18 April 2006 - 07:18 AM.

[RamboIII]

Introduction

My Case will be based around how Big Box retailers benefit their surrounding community-Debate as you wish but my arguments will be universal for the location(Including those small businesses)

First I'd like to state that recently Wal-Mart has taken to account that they have been, in the past, putting small businesses out of businesses. Now, they are advertising and influencing customers to shop at the other small businesses as well as their retailer INSIDE OF THEIR WAL-MARTS!

I will bring up other points later but I'll say this now: Wal-Mart once WAS terrible for the small businesses. NOW it is nothing less than a miracle.

Edited by RamboIII, 19 April 2006 - 02:56 AM.

[Falco Rex]

Ahhh, Big business! You can smell the fresh capitilism in the morning air; greeting another day thick with good old American promise!
Yes sir; capitilism is the basis of an entire country..

Of course; just as with anything else, any great concept carried to it's extreme becomes fatal; and that's exactly what's happened with giant MegaCorps..
The fatality isn't measured in death though, but in the cost to small businessmen and the consumer in general, and in the long run; our very economy itself..
Of course Wal-Mart can afford to advertise for smaller businesses; they can open a store every 12 minutes if they want to..And they just know you'll shop there. You almost have to; thanks to conditions they themselves help set up..
Besides; patting small-business on the head helps distract people from thier thousands of law-suits; many of them advanced by their own employees; who have been treated like dirt..

It doesn't begin and end with them though..From Halliburton Oil, to Verizon, to Target and Nike, an atmosphere of "You'll buy what we want you to; and shop where we tell you to" has descended upon us..
And you will too; because soon there won't be any other option..You'll wear their clothes; fill up with their gas, and use their long-distance service. It's inevitable; and it's death for capitilism in the long run...

In this debate; I hope to show the ladies and gentlemen of the judging panel that Big Business is slowly strangling the world in it's coils..
As a matter of fact; as an exercise in proof; I want each of you to simply walk out to your car and drive down any random street in your city..
The stores you see will be exactly the same, no matter that you all live in different places.
That should prove point one right there...

Good luck to my opponent; and let us begin!

[RamboIII]

Quote

It doesn't begin and end with them though..From Halliburton Oil, to Verizon, to Target and Nike, an atmosphere of "You'll buy what we want you to; and shop where we tell you to" has descended upon us..
And you will too; because soon there won't be any other option..You'll wear their clothes; fill up with their gas, and use their long-distance service. It's inevitable; and it's death for capitilism in the long run..

Well, it is a proven fact that a reason why not all of small businesses have been put out of business is because of their uniqueness. Therefore, we will NOT be wearing their close and, because they specialize in products, their gasoline is cheaper and more quality.
As for "You buy what we want you to..." are they not telling the public to shop at small businesses?

Besides, small businesses thrive on their own independence that sets them apart from big business. They provide things such as souvenirs, interesting art, etc. that big businesses do not carry. Therefore they do not always get put out of business anyway, they instead gain enough income to survive. This means that, although many people must shop at Wal-Mart for certain necessities, small businesses thrive due to their specializing and uniqueness.

[Falco Rex]

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Therefore they do not always get put out of business anyway, they instead gain enough income to survive.

What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
Wow..
I feel like starting my own business right now; don't all of you?
The fact is; what makes greatness is the fact that drive and ambition can make a success of anyone..Or could..
Nowadays there are many factors in place that completely stifle the spirit of Entrepeneurship that people tapped into..
One is out-sourcing...If I own my own business with my own capitol and starting money; I can't afford to pay a factory full of Indonesians to crank out my shoes for me..I have to work with people in my own country..
Never mind the fact that I provide jobs to my own people in my own land by doing so..
Because of that, Wal-Mart can sell sneakers for $5.00; while I have to charge $20.00 for the exact same thing..You can't win in a situation like that..
Hell; this will be a long debate, so I don't even have to start into wages; insurance costs and taxation yet..I'll save those gems for later..
You did state though that small-businesses find a niche in uniqueness and survive there..
True..But do you see the problem?
Look closely...
There it is...
Uniqueness is, well, "Unique"..
There's only a tiny bit of room for each unique niche; which means only a tiny percentage of the population will ever be able to profit off it; much less make even a meager living..
So what am I to infer here?
That you think small business is good only in tiny doses? That Joe Average should never dare to dream above his factory job or mailroom floor; because the Target Corporation will crush him if he attempts to sell any of the things they do?
That he'll only be allowed to succeed if he sells lemonade and sea-shell sculptures at a road-side stand?
Sir: I put it to you that what we need is a playing field where the best and brightest thrive and survive, just as it was in the infancy of capitolism; when it was at it's most pure..
We can of course; pass laws against monopolies to help us out; can't we?
Oh right...
No we can't..Big business supplies at least three quarters of the government; since they have the money it takes to run for office..
So much for that idea..

Well; fight on RamboIII; we have much ground to cover yet..

[RamboIII]

My apologies...

On to the debate...Looks like I'm in a hole but I will clear things up.
Look at it this way, for small businesses having a store as successful as Wal-Mart is something to aspire to or something that they detest and wish to be the opposite of. This works both ways for them:

1. Wal-Mart started as a small bussiness and in knowing this, small bussinesses are motivated in following thier footsteps. Thus benefitting them.

2. Or on the other hand, small bussinesses can aspire to their own fortune, satisfied with having their common customers who enjoy their unique products.
       What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
As for that, many small businesses feel that way because of these "corporate giants" and are benefitted by their hatred as I said before. Following a passion of selling your own products to familliar, loyal customers is better than making millions of dollars to some people. How the Wal-Marts come into place is that they simply help these small businesses realize how much they love what they do and how much they hate what the big businesses do.
Passion is not built off of Income.

Wal-Mart's monopoly is weakening; people depend on it but many professionals are putting it down because of the horrid things it does. Therefore, when customers go into Wal-Mart and see all their advertisements for small businesses that actually directly tell customers to shop at those small businesses, they will think, "And why was I shopping here rather than there?" This proves my first point that I stated. Now, I am not saying that all customers will switch, but many will so that small businesses can begin to sell common neceseties (like you just said that they can not) without risk of getting shut down by Wal-Marts, and while customers are there, the small retailers can fulfill their own passion of selling the things they want.

Yes, there is a lot of ground yet to cover, and there is a lot of new things happening everyday. I look foward to what you have to say next! You have been a strong debater so far.

[AztecInca]

Falco Rex, your reply please!

[Falco Rex]

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1. Wal-Mart started as a small bussiness and in knowing this, small bussinesses are motivated in following thier footsteps. Thus benefitting them.

True to a point; but as I previously mentioned; when Wal-Mart was a small business the economic landscape was very different..A small business could turn itself into a mega-store..Why?
Because there were no mega-stores or giant corporations already existant and making very sure no other small-businessmen got above themselves..
As I said; they can afford a nod or pat on the head to smaller companies even within their own stores..However; let those same folks they're advertising for grow to the point where they become competition; or even threaten to; and watch what happens..
What we're seeing today is economic stasis at the top of the pyramid; and stasis is never good for economies in the long run..They need to grow and change as surely as living beings do..

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Passion is not built off of Income.

No it isn't..Passion can inspire hard work; which can lead to success; which can lead to income. In the retail fields however; government restrictions; amazingly high-taxes, and skyrocketing insurance costs; many of them inspired by big-business lobbyists; harshly punish the small businessman or woman..
Which limits income, minimizes success, and helps kill passion..
Do you see the vicious circle we've become entangled in?

Quote

Wal-Mart's monopoly is weakening; people depend on it but many professionals are putting it down because of the horrid things it does. Therefore, when customers go into Wal-Mart and see all their advertisements for small businesses that actually directly tell customers to shop at those small businesses, they will think, "And why was I shopping here rather than there?"

But do they; after all? A small percentage may; but as we can clearly see day-to-day; most will just end up shopping at another huge chain like Super-Target or Meijer..
And even that business loss doesn't exactly kill Wal-Marts' quarterlies; if you get me..
Is competition among corporate giants a problem?
No; it's just natural capitalism; which brings me to the crux of our argument..
Unless the Government can lower business costs for the smaller businesses, we will never again in our time see a shooting-star-like success story like Wal-Mart..
Our local and small-scale merchants need to be allowed to flex thier wings again and charge reasonable prices for the better quality and service they try to provide us..
But they can't..
Again mostly because big businessmen have set or even passed the laws they have to operate under..
It's another example of a vicious circle; and it's time it was ended..

[RamboIII]

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Our local and small-scale merchants need to be allowed to flex thier wings again and charge reasonable prices for the better quality and service they try to provide us..
But they can't..

That is a major argument: Small businesses do have reasonable prices, big businesses do not. That is the reason for the decline in Wal-Mart's monopoly. How Wal-Mart gains income rather than losing money: Not covering half of their employees with benefits and illegally paying many below minimum wage.
Small businesses, again, benefit from this because not only will constumers begin to go to these stores due to Wal-Mart's bad reputation, but employees will flee there, too. This will result in Small Business Domination. Of course, they couldn't do it without the larger retailers help.

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Because there were no mega-stores or giant corporations already existant and making very sure no other small-businessmen got above themselves..

True, big businesses do not WANT small businesses to get larger than them but they are, however, helping them. Like I said before, large retailers post ads throughout their stores to encourage customers to shop for their unique, authentic, original items.

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No it isn't..Passion can inspire hard work; which can lead to success; which can lead to income. In the retail fields however; government restrictions; amazingly high-taxes, and skyrocketing insurance costs; many of them inspired by big-business lobbyists; harshly punish the small businessman or woman..
Which limits income, minimizes success, and helps kill passion..
Do you see the vicious circle we've become entangled in?

You really contradicted yourself... First you say, passion isn't built off of income, then you say that the lack of income kills passion. No it doesn't, like you said yourself. So, recall what I previously said:

2. Or on the other hand, small businesses can aspire to their own fortune, satisfied with having their common customers who enjoy their unique products.
What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
As for that, many small businesses feel that way because of these "corporate giants" and are benefitted by their hatred as I said before. Following a passion of selling your own products to familiar, loyal customers is better than making millions of dollars to some people. How the Wal-Marts come into place is that they simply help these small businesses realize how much they love what they do and how much they hate what the big businesses do.
Passion is not built off of Income.

New Point:

Many people, who do not yet see the true nature of these big box stores, and still flock to them from out of town to shop there, stay there for an entire day. In doing this, they increase local restraunt sales. That is the big businesses that benefits these restraunts.

Edited by RamboIII, 08 May 2006 - 03:20 AM.

[Falco Rex]

Quote

You really contradicted yourself... First you say, passion isn't built off of income, then you say that the lack of income kills passion. No it doesn't, like you said yourself. So, recall what I previously said:

Ok; although this was the last counter-point made; let's go here first to clear up a misunderstanding..I wasn't disagreeing with you..When I typed "No it isn't", I was agreeing and then using what you said to build my own point..It wasn't a contradiction, it just lacked a comma, and that changed the way the sentence read..
It should have read "No, it isn't"..Were it not a rule violation I'd go back and edit that in for the sake of clarity..However..
Now that it's out of the way; let's move on; shall we?

Quote

That is a major argument: Small businesses do have reasonable prices, big businesses do not. That is the reason for the decline in Wal-Mart's monopoly. How Wal-Mart gains income rather than losing money: Not covering half of their employees with benefits and illegally paying many below minimum wage.
Small businesses, again, benefit from this because not only will constumers begin to go to these stores due to Wal-Mart's bad reputation, but employees will flee there, too. This will result in Small Business Domination. Of course, they couldn't do it without the larger retailers help.

If experience tells us anything; it's that people will go where they won't get hit as hard in thier pockets; no matter the sins of the retailers..It's sad; but when you have a family and bills; that's what you have to do regardless of morals and ethics..
Nor will harsh treatment of employees effect the long-term welfare of the store..
People need jobs..Even crappy ones..
What it does do is effect how long someone will stay employed there; but none of that hurts the profit margins very much, and the money still rolls in..
And the Mill still grinds out the record quarterly profits..
As, I said; without new laws in place; or even the old ones being more agressively enforced; that can never change..
And how can they be with big business pulling those strings?

Quote

True, big businesses do not WANT small businesses to get larger than them but they are, however, helping them. Like I said before, large retailers post ads throughout their stores to encourage customers to shop for their unique, authentic, original items.

We're covering the same ground here, but as I said..How many of those types of items does your average family need? How many can they even afford?
There's very little wiggle room in that kind of cottage industry to make multiple fortunes..
What we need is a more fair competition on staple items..
You can advertise for them all day, but that won't make them necessary; and Wal-Mart and their ilk are well aware of that..
They're laughing all the way to the bank because people are buying into thier condesending nods to the little guy..

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New Point:

Many people, who do not yet see the true nature of these big box stores, and still flock to them from out of town to shop there, stay there for an entire day. In doing this, they increase local restraunt sales. That is the big businesses that benefits these restraunts

Perhaps that was true once..Now however; they're just as likely to simply grab lunch at one of the many McDonalds or Subways' or other chains that exist right inside the store!
So you eat there and they can make a profit while paying rent directly to the Mega-store they operate out of..
It's a parasitic symbiosis where two or more huge chains help each other gain an even tighter grasp on your wallet; while edging out area restaurants..
The new monopolies use each other to get even farther ahead of the pack..
Welcome to Metropolis...
Enjoy your stay.

[RamboIII]

Ok, I am glad you can reconcile with this point being true(if that is what you went...). So in this particular way, Big Boxes unintentionally benefit small business.

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If experience tells us anything; it's that people will go where they won't get hit as hard in thier pockets; no matter the sins of the retailers..It's sad; but when you have a family and bills; that's what you have to do regardless of morals and ethics..
Nor will harsh treatment of employees effect the long-term welfare of the store..
People need jobs..Even crappy ones..

That is true, but look towards the future, say the year...2012. Wal-Marts are going to have to change their ways and become a good, moral store or else fear being illegalized. How are they going to do this? They're not going to actually become moral, that will kill their income. What they will do, however, is mask their inappropriate ethics by doing favors to small business like they have already done, such as posting advertisements in their stores.
So it is a Win-win situation for small business. Big boxes either collapse or attempt to shield their immorality through directly benefitting them. What more could they ask for?

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We're covering the same ground here, but as I said..How many of those types of items does your average family need?

Well, say you are getting a new house. You need to spice it up a little bit. Say you are a tourist. Your not gonna go buy some milk at Wal-Mart. What if a kid wants to go out and buy some baseball cards? Only the best are at those local stores. Almost everyone has a unique passion, whether it is baseball, PEZ collecting, glassblowing, etc. Wal-Mart DOES NOT HAVE IT.
When a Wal-Mart moves into a city, all the attention goes to the Wal-Mart, right? But that means those ads. will get attention, too. So when a young lady sees a sign for a pottery shop that she always had an interest for, she will follow the finger of the Wal-Mart pointing directly to this small retailer.

But remember, it's not just the small businesses on the ads. that are being represented. What about the local advertising companies??? They are being benefited by the "generosity" of the Wal-Marts.

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Perhaps that was true once..Now however; they're just as likely to simply grab lunch at one of the many McDonalds or Subways' or other chains that exist right inside the store!

First of all, Subways are seldom in big box retailers. But, McDonalds, let's focus on that. Such a perfect example it is. McDonalds, with it's bad reputation, is also losing faith in customers. So, yes, perhaps it was true once. And it lost a lot of effect, and now shoppers from out of town will drive over to Big Al's BBQ down the street, then go to Pottery Barn right next door. Times have changed and remember, they're still a'changin'.

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Welcome to Metropolis...
Enjoy your stay.

Thanks, I'll buy a couple of necessities, eat some quality food, and then fulfill my true passion-All thanks to the "monopoly"! And yes, I'll enjoy my stay.

[AztecInca]

Falco Rex we are eagerly awaiting your reply!