16 replies to this topic

[crystal sage]

As Kansas is alledgedly going back to the days of the 'Scopes Trial'...where evolution studies were out-lawed at schools...
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f...opes/evolut.htm


Thought I'd check out to see how far science has gone... It's quite impressive!!!

"  In January of this year a region of the brain called the planum temporale, thought only to be present in humans, was found in chimpanzees (Science vol. 279). It is involved in the comprehension of language in humans. Chimpanzee communication is dominated by gesture so it maybe that the planum temporale is important in gesture recognition in these animals. If the appropriate gear is present in other primates perhaps their language abilities are more advanced than we think.  

Did language evolve because we had something to say or do we have something to say as a result of language? The origins of human-like vocal ability have recently been traced back as far as the Neanderthal. The hypoglossal canal, which carries a nerve that controls the flexibility of the tongue, is very similar in size in both Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, but much smaller in apes (Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences). Apes can’t talk because they lack this motor ability?They may well have the intention but not the capability because of their anatomy.  "

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/9/5417

Edited by crystal sage, 20 March 2006 - 12:54 AM.

[crystal sage]

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0080-4622...B2-1&size=SMALL


Following the Gardners' discovery that an ape named Washoe could learn to produce and combine a number of hand movements similar to those used by deaf human beings, a variety of `ape-language projects' sprang up. Some projects used different symbol systems, others used different training techniques, and others used different species of apes. While debate still rages regarding the appropriate way to interpret the symbolic productions of apes, three species of great apes (gorilla, orangutan, and chimpanzee) have now been credited with this capacity while no lesser apes or monkeys have been reported, at present, to have acquired such communicative skills. Among all of the claims made for the various animal species, the philosophers have entered the fray attempting to define the essence of what it is about language that makes it `human'. This paper will compare and contrast the above positions to arrive at behavioural definitions of symbolic usage that can be applied across species. It will then present new data on a fourth ape species Pan paniscus which is proving to be the first non-human species to acquire symbolic skills in a spontaneous manner.

[crystal sage]

Could modern surgery techniques..enable the chimp to speak???

Can you imagine the tales they can tell??... lol
...   
How fast the brain would then develope over the next few generations...??

How about reading skills..??

I don't think that is far away....they already know how to sign..symbols..pictures ...!!!


Chimps going to school???

The future possibilites are .....wow !!!!   

Edited by crystal sage, 20 March 2006 - 01:02 AM.

[frogfish]

No need to reply to your own post...

[Pax Unum]

Quote

Could modern surgery techniques..enable the chimp to speak???

Can you imagine the tales they can tell??... lol
...   
How fast the brain would then develope over the next few generations...??

How about reading skills..??

I don't think that is far away....they already know how to sign..symbols..pictures ...!!!
Chimps going to school???

The future possibilites are .....wow !!!!   

oh no, it's planet of the apes....  

[AnuKabal]

they could one day be just another part of society

[crystal sage]

Quote

they could one day be just another part of society

    
...and be fighting for equal rights...to vote...equal pay for equal work...we women are still fighting for that one... lol


  

[dariaru05]

Actually I know of at least one primate who was taught to make vocalizations.  I heard a recording of it in my anthropology class 10 years ago.  I can't remember when the recording was made or who trained the chimpanzee.  As I recall, the chimp said a short phrase.  It sounded really weird, and the chimpanzee's vocal chords were damaged from the effort.

So, it is possible.  I am not sure if the chimp was regurgitatating the words like a parrot or if he truly understood what he was communicating like the famous KoKo.

[crystal sage]

Quote

Actually I know of at least one primate who was taught to make vocalizations.  I heard a recording of it in my anthropology class 10 years ago.  I can't remember when the recording was made or who trained the chimpanzee.  As I recall, the chimp said a short phrase.  It sounded really weird, and the chimpanzee's vocal chords were damaged from the effort.

So, it is possible.  I am not sure if the chimp was regurgitatating the words like a parrot or if he truly understood what he was communicating like the famous KoKo.

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Viki the talking chimp


Hayes and Hayes (1952) are probably the only researchers to have any success with teaching a chimpanzee how to speak English.

Their chimp, Viki was taught how to pronounce a few words, mama, papa, cup and up, by the use of positive reinforcements. At first, Viki was rewarded with food for making any vocalisation, and this way she was taught how to produce sound on demand. It took 5 months before Viki was able to produce vocalisations that were recognisable in any way to humans, the first one being a hoarse "ah" sound. This was later developed to "mama."

However, the Hayes recorded that Viki had considerable difficulty pronouncing words, would often become confused and pronounce or use the words incorrectly. Also she held her lip while "talking"

[crystal sage]

[quote name='crystal sage' date='Mar 22 2006, 11:18 AM' post='1115009']
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also.....

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/...himpsTalk1.html

[Darkwind]

Animals are a lot smarter than people think.  I know my cat has an easier time figuring out what I want than I do figuring what she wants, but I am getting better.  She is a good trainer.

It is not just primates that are being studied and parrots have been doing remarkable things in commuication and they can talk.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pepperberg...berg_index.html

[frogfish]

We know parrots can talk...but they are not saying anything...its all mimicry and memorization.

[dariaru05]

Thank you Crystal Sage.  I could not remember the details on the talking chimp.

[moomooman]

Isn't the African grey parrot pretty smart. Animal planet said they're as smart as 3 year olds. And have any of you heard about Oliver the chimp? Discovery channel had a special about him not too long ago that i recorded. At about the same time they also had a special about these scientists who teach words and stuff. They even would show the chimps movies on the screen, then afterwords ask them how it made them feel. When one was shown a movie that kinda had a sad vibe (dont really remember what it was exactly, a baby chimp getting hurt or lost, something like that) the monky touched the sad, and mad buttons.

[crouton]

I remember a show on the Animal Planet within the last year (hosted, IIRC, by Jane Goodall) that featured a bird that could have a conversation with it's person.  It also had the concept of time (past, present, and future), and once asked a friend of it's person if she (the friend) could drive a car.  When answered in the affirmative, the bird asked if she could take the bird for a drive sometime.  The bird had been driven around once, remembered it, and talked about it alot.  That is not mere mimicry.  That is intelligent conversation. It's not philosophy, or contemplating the infinite, but it's certainly NOT just 'Polly want a cracker'!

The more I watch programs on the Animal Planet, and observe my own two cats, and other animals around me, the more I am convinced that there are no Human qualities.  There are simply qualities that all creatures on earth share.  After all, humans are animals too.  So why do humans insist that they alone as a species can feel emotions, or think, or laugh, or be curious?

And don't tell me I'm anthropomorphizing.