Beauty: skin deep versus stitch deep?

[AztecInca]

Debate Topic: Beauty-skin deep versus stitch deep?

Do we need cosmetic surgery in order to obtain the image of 'perfect' or are we born with natural attributes that make us so?

Neo2005 will de debating that that we require cosmetic surgery to obtain the 'perfect' image while Glacies will be debating that the natural attributes we are born with make us 'perfect'.

This will be a 1v1 formal debate.

An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant. No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will be tolerated.

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself, Lottie or Tiddlyjen know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for up to 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

Good luck!

Aztec.

Edited May 12, 2006 by AztecInca

[Glacies]

INTRODUCTION

The concept of Perfection, is a long sought after ideal which many argue is unnattainable, at least by natural methods especially in the context of beauty. However I wish to argue against everything that said ideal proposes. It is of my opinion that perfection is something that can never be worked towards, because a person cannot strive to something they allready possess.

But Glacies, you say, isn't it cliche as heck to say "everyones perfect" to which i respond, stop butting in to my debate post, but i will also give you an answer to that question, the statement of "everyone's perfect/beautiful" is only a cliche if it is used to console people who are otherwise not perfect/beautiful.

Wow, i have said perfect alot here haven't I? i haven't even properly defined it yet. sorry, i should lose a point or two for that, anywho, perfection can be (and should be) described as a peak in acheivement or excelling in something. and to be beautiful, one cannot limit the term beauty to only encompassing the visual fields. after all, can a scent not be beautiful? can a song not touch you with its beauty? Therefor it could be argued that something is beautiful if it is perfect in one of the many fields, ie scent, sound, taste touch and sight.

Though we are focussing on the visual concept of beauty right now, asking is surgery required to hit that peak of perfection? well, as i'd said, perfection is a peak, perhaps better defined as a personal peak. this peak means i can go no further naturally, i have gone as far as I can, and i am thus perfect at it. This sentiment only comes into conflict when propped up against societies inflated standards of beauty and perfection associated with it.

Complying to societies norms in fact detracts from the overall concept of personal perfection, because how can you be perfect if you are in fact aiming for a standard that no one can actually reach, in fact exceeding my aforementioned definition of a natural peak? this artificaility removes all aspects of the raw beauty that everyone in fact has, and in doing so perverts the very concepts of beauty and perfection.

and that's all for now folks i'd like to wish luck to my opponent. and a great debate season had by all.

[Neo2005]

Introduction

Well lets get right into it shall we?

Beauty, apparently it's in the eye of the beholder, but how unfortunate for us that pretty much all of those eyes is grotesquely superficial.So how do we make it so that we are seen in the most flattering of lights? Simple, surgery.

I know you might think that this may seem rather barbaric to just hack and slash someones face or body in the hopes of making it better.But when you think about it you can only love someone if you love yourself first, and if you don't have the self confidence in your own appreance to do that the how are you ever going to be happy?

Simple safe Botox injections can take years off of your facial age, and make you feel so much better about how you look to others.Let's face it people no matter how blind you are to how others see you everyone still cares about how they look, it may not be a primal instinct in the but it is becoming one quickly.

In my debate I will outline several upsides to getting procedures done to enhance your look and i will even examine some of the bad sides, but hopefully if you read correctly you will see that the pro's more than make up for the mild discomfort.

I wish you luck Glacies, and let's both make this an awesome debate.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Neo2005

[Glacies]

POST 1

Indeed, i hope to have a stellar debate here. so as you'd said, right into it. first, a brief rebuttal, I must state that the concept of to be beautiful one needs to appear beautiful to others is one which serves to completely discount the theory that perfection and beauty are in fact within us to begin with. In stating that beauty is not ingrained within us we successfully limit the entire abstract concept of beauty and take something universal and make it superficial. in making beauty superficial, it ceases to be beauty and becomes a marketable trait, and nothing more.

The premise of surgery as a means to increase confidence is true, however the publics perception of beauty as a marketable trait manipulates the dependence on surgery to such an extent where it becomes the only way to raise an artificially lowered self confidence level. as i'd said, beauty and perfection are personal peaks, the best one looks, the best one is, should be all one needs to be self confident. and surgery is not the means to obtain that peak. said peak is naturally occuring, and makes a person beautiful regardless of how they compare to societies opinion.

Regardless of the safety level of the operation, or the efficacy of the operation itself, the results it gives are false, and are merely conforming. how can one be beautiful if they look like everyone else? the natural beauty within is much more potent, and longer lasting than any surgery.

Parallelling drugs, the surgeries producing an artificial high/happiness, regardless of how safe or extreme the change the drug/operation causes is, the alteration is false, a fake happiness produced by an external factor. this falsification removes all purity from the beauty, and how can something impure be beautiful?

Thusly, regardless of the surgery, any results are fake, and thusly cheapen and in fact lower the natural peak of beauty itself.

Great debate so for Neo.

[Neo2005]

Body 1

The premise of surgery as a means to increase confidence is true, however the publics perception of beauty as a marketable trait manipulates the dependence on surgery to such an extent where it becomes the only way to raise an artificially lowered self confidence level.

You say that it is the "only" way to raise a lowered self esteem.First off it is a standard in most medical practices who perform these procedures to check mental health and make sure that this person isn't a surgery junkie or anything else like that.Which makes it so that anyone getting said surgery will only benefit 100% from it.I point this out only because the people getting surgery know for a fact that it will make them happy and feel better about themselves.

Beauty as you said is a marketable trait indeed, but like i said in the previous statement this surgery is only given to people who are 100% mentally capeable of handeling and dealing with what they are buying(beauty).

Sometimes surgery isn't just because someone wants to look like Charlize Theron or some celebrity they see on T.V, it's because they are in dire need of an operatuon to significantly enhance thei quality of life.Say for intsance that there is a man or woman who is morbidly obesse and can barely walk and could possibly die if they don't loose weight.How is someone who can barely walk supposed to get enough exersice to loose weight, short answer they can't.So maybe gastric bypass surgery is the only other option.Their "looks" are taking a secondary to their imediate problem but it's always in the back of their mind.

Edit: Neo2005 if you have any questions regarding your debate please pm your designated organiser. As its me I`ll just briefly answer your question here. A debate participant may post whatever they like throughout their debate as long as it is not offensive, insulting, crude etc..... It is up to the individual debater themselves to decide how far they can or cannot stray from the topic.

Edited April 14, 2006 by AztecInca

[Glacies]

BODY POST 2

I must argue with your point here, (sorry it was a well worded post, and very well thought out) while a person may be mentally able to handle the surgery, they are not mentally aware that the surgery is not to better themselves, but rather societies opinion of themselves. How else can some people not chose surgery and remain self confident and feel they are beautiful, if in fact the beauty isn't there to begin with, and this beauty is only manipulated and twisted to meet societies standards. How can someone believe themselves to be perfect, if they haven't been altered? The answer is, that these people, lucky enough to realize the perfection within, are not swayed by societies demands to conform, and as such, excell to the perfect peak point, beautiful and perfect for doing so.

In the subject raised of extreme cosmetic surgery to save lives, this surgery is only necessary because society has forced it down the afflicted parties throats that they are not perfect, so a person with a slight weight problem becomes depressed and harms themselves in the process. no this isn't the case in all circumstances, however more often than not, this analogy rings true.

Evidence of the inherent beauty within would be asking a person free from the media, free from societal pressures, if the feel themselves to be beautiful. tribes in south america will wear next to nothing, both because of the climate, and in part due to the lack of guilt, and sense of pride in their bodies. the counter arguement would require that these people feel "ugly" but, never hearing of plastic surgery or other alterations, would wonder why. certainly peircings and other methods of body art are used, though those are most often harnessed in the religious sense, and are inconsequential to the overall belief of beauty within the groups.

Nice rebuttals, i love where this debate is going.

[Neo2005]

they are not mentally aware that the surgery is not to better themselves, but rather societies opinion of themselves

That is why cosmetic surgery agencies have psycologist to help weed out the peple who are 100% content with getting surgery from the people who are just doing it because it's the new thing.

tribes in south america will wear next to nothing, both because of the climate, and in part due to the lack of guilt

How do you feel guilt of something you've never questioned? These peple have never known what clothes are, so there is no reason or them to feel shame of guilt.

Everyone has something about them they would like to change, wether it be the way your nose looks or how far your ears stick out from your head, there is something hat people don;t want to have to fear going out in public to be discriminated against.All we are doing is providing people who are uncomfortable with they way they look an oppourtunity to feel comfortable with they way they look.

There are people with horrible birth defects, like that of Treacher collins syndrome where the affected person is born(in the most severe cases) without eyes sockets,a nose, and is basically born without a face, these people regardless of societies look on "beauty" is irrelevent to how much of an outcast we would make them feel, that's why doctors preform these surguries to help people.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Neo2005

[Glacies]

POST 3

Firstly, I've stated, or i should have, that surgery to fix life threatening illnesses or to allow a person to see, isn't of the same level as surgery done to trim weight, reduce wrinkles and all in all alter a human being to societys predetermined norms. secondly, while i am sure the aforementioned psychiatrists do weed out some, there are still undoubtedly some who go through surgeries for little or no reason, besides conforming, which as i've mentioned only serves to further them from their own natural beauty.

The natural beauty within, which is literally a combination of all five senses, as well as the belief in ones natural perfection, is undoubtedly much less expensive, and much safer than the safest of all surgeries, which i'm sure my opponent will agree with. however, the problem arises as the realization and acceptance of natural beauty is so much more difficult to do, due to a combination of pressures from the media, and peers. therefore, it is much simpler to take the easy way out, and accept the misconception that the only way you can be beautiful is to submit yourself to the knife, or needle.

Therefore, a problem arises, and in seeking this artificial boost in self esteem, you serve only to weaken your own natural beauty and self esteem, until they stop functioning alltogether, without the surgery to help. this dependency is one of the main problems associated with cosmetic surgery and regardless of the psych evaluations, this is a prominent risk to anyone changing themselves, shedding the gift of natural perfection that they possess, and conforming to societies beliefs.

[Neo2005]

Body 3

Therefore, a problem arises, and in seeking this artificial boost in self esteem, you serve only to weaken your own natural beauty and self esteem,

This is not an artificial boost at all, this is completely 100% real.

These people on the whole feel much better about themselves than they did befoe they had this done.There is nothing artificial about it and to say that it weakens their own self esteem is obsurd, if it does anything it make them more self confident and more comforatable at how the look to other people.

Anyone who gets this elective procedure is already very low in self esteem and in need of a boost, and this is why they get the surgery.They way you say it makes it sound like they get operated on to make themselves feel worse, that would just be insane.

Another this you say alot is "conforming" which implies that they are all the same, which is totally false, if that were true we would be seeing alot more twins(or acualy people who are all carved from the same template) These people are still themselves, just a more refined improved self.

It's like waking up and not having to put on makeup of brush your hair because you already look your best, which if you ask anyone is all we want.

[Glacies]

POST 4

Why the suspense Glacies? Why wait so long for a response to Neo's awesome rebuttal? well i had a busy schedule and i certainly wanted to give my opponent the response he deserves.

I must argue then, that my meaning of artificial boost is quite accurate, for while the persons self esteem does increase it akin to muscle mass and testosterone increasing under the use of steroids. however, akin to testosterone which will stop being produced if too much steroid intake occurs, so to does natural confidence decrease when artificial boosters are applied, in this case cosmetic surgery.

You say it yourself Neo, those taking the procedure are low in self esteem to begin with. should it not be our goal to show them the natural beauty? or would that be counter productive of the capitalist society we live in, which loves to thrives on the illnesses/weaknesses/pain of others? sorry, got off on a rant there, though the point is valid, and no less, raised by you...i merely elaborated.

Finally, i must disagree, for while the logic of people are not emulating each other to the point of twins, nor are they appearing to be carved from the same template(well worded by the way!) the people electing for cosmetic surgery are in fact loosing themselves, because to alter from the body from it's natural beautiful state, and to alter the mindset of the person involved, have you not changed the person entirely?

Therefore in a cycle consisting of money, low self esteem and the false hope of betterment, the plastic surgeons continue raking in the dough, and society keeps on propegating the sentiment that you cannot be naturally beautiful.

[Neo2005]

Body 4

You say it yourself Neo, those taking the procedure are low in self esteem to begin with. should it not be our goal to show them the natural beauty?

That's the purpose of the surgery.

If beauty is all based on personality then how are supposed to see that unless you walk up and talk to them.Unfortunatly we live in a world where the "un-attractive"(not to be harsh) are segragated from the rest of society, and most people of the "attractive" race(i say race because when speaking literally there is just 2 races in the superficial world, Ugly and Gorgeous) would not dare go and been seen talking to one of the "other kind".

The sugery is to promote the idea that regardless of what you say or believe in peopl will like you because you look good. If you do these procedures for all the right reasons then nothing but good can come from them as a byproduct.

have you not changed the person entirely?

No quite aimply you have altered he shell, the person remains the same all the way through.Quite the same with the hermit crab who once he outgrows his shell he moves on to someting bigger and more often than not more extravegant looking.The crab reamins the same.Unless we preform a brainwashing procedure as wells as cologen the person will stay as true to there former self as much as they want.

Often with a physical change the mind will go through changes aswell, more so because of he trauma of what the body has just gone through.These changes can be for the better or for the worst.It is true that society has mde a huge impact on the way we see beauty, and i do agree with the fact that being "beautifull" is all based on how close you are to them, but in the world we live in how do we get close is we are not attracted to the exterior?

[AztecInca]

Glacies we are awaiting your reply!

[Glacies]

BODY 5

Sorry for the delay, i like to keep my fans waiting.

Beauty can be completely based on personality, like i've suggested, and not require a complete knowledge of the person being viewed, that is to say, you wouldn't have to know everything about a person to see them as beautiful, if they view themselves as such. The person who views themselves as beautiful will walk accordingly, and present themselves as such, and if said person feels so strongly that they are naturally beautiful, would it not mean all viewers would see them as beautiful as well? therefore, if such feelings of positive self views are echoed in a positive chain reaction, all could end up viewing themselves as naturally beautiful and the need for surgery all together will be eliminated.

Next, i must ask, the concept of people liking you because of the surgery and looking good, isn't that one of the wrong reasons to have the surgery? surely more people would like a person if they acted friendly and confident, both of which come from a positive self image, something very rarely coinciding with the desire to have cosmetic surgery.

And the crab analogy, doesn't quite fit, the persons mindset is drastically altered, thinking that "people will like me now that i'm beautiful", as you yourself had said. The entire operation is thus needless, as a person shouldn't think that, people should like a person for their personality.

Your final question wil in fact be my last statement how can we get close enough to know someone withut being attracted to the exterior? simple, we can't. but it's the definition of exterior we must take notice of. What makes up the exterior of which we speak? more than the appearance, it's the sound, the smell, and the manuerisms. all of which cannot be altered with surgery, all of which cannot be affected or enhanced by anyway other than a positive self image, and an awareness of the beauty one has within.

[AztecInca]

Neo2005 has asked for and been given an extension of a couple of days as he has a valid reason for doing so. The debate will go on.

[Neo2005]

I would like to apologize for my latency with this post.

Body 5

Next, i must ask, the concept of people liking you because of the surgery and looking good, isn't that one of the wrong reasons to have the surgery

No acually this is one of the main reasons people elect to have surgery is so that people will finally apreaciate them for who they are, but also so they see them for what they think they should look like one the outside.

This is a very hard thing for many people these days to understand, "changing the way you look" it's in some means unthinkable, but if you were a person who because of their looks has been teased and "abused" all their life this is technically a miracle for them because there is finally no stigma.I think that whoever you are you can appreciate the fact that these peoples lives are improved because of these surgeries.

And the crab analogy, doesn't quite fit, the persons mindset is drastically altered, thinking that "people will like me now that i'm beautiful", as you yourself had said. The entire operation is thus needless, as a person shouldn't think that, people should like a person for their personality.

Acually the crab analogy does fit the scenario, the crab definatly doesn;t go through a huge mental change like a human would, but because of it's new shell it does take on a different personality with the way it interacts with other crabs.The point i was trying to make was that just like a crab the person will feel more self confident and more pronounced in the way they live their life.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Neo2005

[Glacies]

CLOSING POST

Well, they say good things come to those who wait, great post neo, and a great debate.

At first glance, summarizing my argument seems to be quite the lengthy endeavour. oh stop rolling your eyes, i'll make it quick and to the point.

All the key points of my argument literally flow into one another, and as such i shall start with the first key concept, namely the inherent beauty and perfection within all of us. This ideal, while undoubtedly ackward to grasp, is in fact quite simple to view when you break the point itself down. To be beautiful, one must be pleasing to the senses correct? perfect, and the senses are more than merely sight, so one can be beautiful if they themselves feel it so, and exude an air of confidence and beauty.

the second point is of course how cosmetic surgery in fact eliminates this personal self confidence, by completely restructuring the persons natural beliefs of a beauty within, forcing them to adapt to another persons viewpoint of perfection.

but, from where do these superimposing viewpoints come from? of course the media and society in general, warped around the consumer market. it earns more money for everyone involved (save the person spending on the surgery) if a person submits and conforms to the unrealistic societal views of the nonexistence of natural beauty.

Therefore, the only cure for this non stop ripple effect which is bringing about the abolishment of natural beauty is to accept the natural beauty and self confidence within. because, as i've said, if a person walks like theyre naturally beautiful, talks like theyre naturally beautiful, and acts like theyre naturally beautiful, aren't they beautiful?

A BRILLIANT DEBATE! I look forward to seeing the results.

[Neo2005]

Final Post

I'd first like to say that this was a very fun debate to be a part of and that Glacies did give a good run for my money.

I think that as a society who is trying to strive for perfection all of the time, hat we are making the right advancements to make this possible.

There are many people in the world who arn't happy with they way they look, everyone has "natural beauty" but it's not always as noticably then someone with an amazing body and gorgeous face.

Unfortunatly people only notice the birds with the brightest colours.

All beauty is inside the person, but in this day in age we have to be attracted to the shell to want to find out whats inside, and with plastic surgery this is possible.

Everyone has seen the extreme makeover shows where these people are so happy to finaly be who they think they should be that they breakdown and cry because they are so happy.The person will always remain the same inside, but the outsde will be improved.

The final goal of all plastic surgery is to make it so that the person looks as good on the outside as they feel on the inside, to improve the quality of life and to finally make it s the person is comfortable with who they are as a person.

I wish Glacies good luck, and if he beats me he better win the entire thing!

[AztecInca]

Thank-you to both our debaters, you did an awesome job!

I shall now hand this over to our wonderfully talented debate judges!

Edited May 7, 2006 by AztecInca

[thebarman]

Great debate, I can pick a few holes in either side but I have to say I still found both very entertaining and a joy to read.

I don't need to point out that not a single source was posted, perhaps some examples of surgery gone wrong or some success stories of how happy people have been after surgery might have added strength to the side that used them but you both opted to go without.

Despite that though I didn't think the debate suffered all that much, Neo strayed a little from the topic with the example of surgery on those who are injured or deformed, as the topic clearly defines the parameters of the debate specifically to cosmetic surgery for superficial benefits, although I did like the crab analogy

Countering was very good on both sides, not too little and not too much and most points were dealt with well.

Just a touch more content for both would have added that little extra, in the end I felt it was Glacies points about the descrimination in society that were the more persuasive which gave him the edge.

Glacies

Relevancy: 9

Style: 7

Countering: 9

Persuasiveness: 8

Total: 33

Neo2005

Relevancy: 7

Style: 7

Countering: 9

Persuasiveness: 7

Total: 30

[Kryso]

I think I can say that this has been the shortest amount of written material for any debate I have judged! That said; both your enthusiasm came across for the debate. But a few more Quotes when answering the opponents question. And as the Barman pointed out, a few links or factual references from published articles or reference material to that effect would have spruced it up perfectly, or a few images.

But short is sometimes sweet…

However I enjoyed your debate and I look forward to your future ones…

Glacies

Relevancy: 9

Style: 7

Countering: 6

Persuasiveness: 8

Total: 30

Neo2005

Relevancy: 8

Style: 8

Countering: 7

Persuasiveness: 7

Total: 30

Well done both of you, your both winners! Sometimes it just adds up that way!

[__Kratos__]

"A report should be like a ladies skirt, short enough to grab your interest but long enough to cover everything." - My teacher. That is what both of you did, well done. A little straying at points from Neo and the lack of quoting from Glacies. All and all, covered a lot of points despite the help from outside links for souces. You both seemed to know what you were talking about from your side of the fence. Enjoyable read.

Debater 1: Glacies

Relevancy: 10

Style: 7

Countering: 7

Persuasiveness: 8

Total: 32

Debater 2: Neo2005

Relevancy: 7

Style: 9

Countering: 7

Persuasiveness: 8

Total: 31

[AztecInca]

Glacies wins this debate with a final score of 31.6

Neo2005 finishes this debate with a final score of 30.3

Well done to both our debaters you did a fine job!