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Show me proof


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#1    theSOURCE

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 11:49 PM

I want proof that anything paranormal discussed on this board exists. Show me the carcass of a cryptid, or tell me where I can find a ghost that I can sit down and have a chat with. Tell me how I can shake the hand of an actual ET.

Forget pictures. With photo software I can create convincing ghostly images, or UFOs, or Nessie type lake monsters. I can synthesize "other worldly" sounds.

Scoop marks on someone's leg is not proof that he/she has been abducted. Regression through hypnosis? Sorry...confabulation.

I want empirical evidence. I want proof that can be handled, observed by anyone, prodded and poked with test equipment, and shows the phenomena it represents is real.

Give me a ghost in a bottle. Show me a live Big Foot in a cage. Let me scrape the poop from a real live Grey alien off of my shoe! (OK...maybe not that last one.)

I've heard this reply before: "If you don't believe in it, then nothing will convince you of it's existence." Sorry, that's not good enough. I don't subscribe to blind faith.

And if anyone wonders what the hell I'm doing at an unexplained mysteries forum, my answer is simple: curiosity. I'm curious to "know" if any of this really exists (plus the fact that I enjoy the nice company of the friendly people here original.gif ).

I have no problem with whatever anyone chooses to believe. But the repeated theories, conjectures, and tired anecdotes seem to go nowhere.

"Bring me the head of the chupacabras on a silver plater!"


#2    Nancy

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE (theSOURCE @ Oct 4 2003, 07:49 PM)
I want proof that anything paranormal discussed on this board exists.

I want empirical evidence. I want proof that can be handled, observed by anyone, prodded and poked with test equipment, and shows the phenomena it represents is real.


I've heard this reply before: "If you don't believe in it, then nothing will convince you of it's existence." Sorry, that's not good enough. I don't subscribe to blind faith.


Whew...... Maybe a tad too much caffine??   blink.gif

SOURCE, I understand what you are requesting, but I find your demands impossible to fulfill.   Why?

That "ghost in a bottle" choses his/her time and place and to whom he/she will make itself known.  I say this with trepidation, as I have just experienced my first "contact" just within the past two weeks. This took my totally by surprise and has confused this blonde, to no end.

I have an editorial here on UM called "The Yellow Rose." Since you are not interested in photographs, sending you one would be useless. What happened with the Yellow Rose is 100% true, accurate, yet how do I convince you?

How can I explain knowing my step-son had committed suicide, hours before the Los Angeles Coroner's Office called me to let me know? I was hundreds of miles north of where he lived, yet........ I had "heard" from him early the morning he took his own life. I can tell you what I "heard"...... but would you believe me?

Until things that go bump in the night affect You personally, no amount of jibber jabber will convince you. Once that experience occurs, you will no longer doubt.
Not what you wanted to hear, but tis the honest truth. crying.gif


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#3    Seraphina

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 01:30 AM

If everyone required evidence before they believed, then nobody would go out trying to find evidence in the first place tongue.gif

I'm not much for faith myself either...however, I do think that not every single thing we see and hear about bigfoot, chupas, ghosts and so forth can simply be down to hoaxes....not everyone in the world is capable of doctoring a convincing photo, or fabricating a convincing story, coroberated by others from completely seperate witnesses.

At the end of the day, believing something exists without needing the evidence is what makes scientific advancement...while I don't agree that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absense" (to be honest, if a serious investigation fails to turn up any results whatsoever, not even signs or sounds of a creature, then it's probably not out there...unfortunately, thanks to the attitude that evidence is needed before anyone will believe, I don't think very many serious investigations get done)....I do feel that, as human beings, we really do need to make an effort to explore and learn about the world around us.

If you need everything rubbed in your nose before you believe it, despite a vast array of photographic, audia, testimonial, film, and historical evidence...then we'd probably not have advanced at all since the beliefs of the dark ages tongue.gif

You think Newton woulda gotten very far if he'd decided gravity can't exist, because he couldn't see it? wink2.gif    

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#4    theSOURCE

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 02:17 AM

Please don't misunderstand my point.

Perhaps my "blind faith" comment was a little too strong. I'm not that closed minded. I realize "something" is undeniably going on with all these reports of strange phenomena. That's the reason I belong to forums like this one. But I'm frustrated with the fact that, even with all the statements made by credible witnesses, there's no tangible evidence to support anything they've reported (and if I'm wrong about this, I would appreciate anyone letting me know).

I want to know what is behind all this. I want to know the nuts n' bolts explanation, the cell by cell break down.

I have had a few strange encounters that I have no explanation for. But I also don't have anything to show you that what I experienced really did happen.

I'm not calling anyone a liar. However, if something can be shown to be a myth, or a misidentification of a natural phenomenon, then I can live with that.

OTOH, if a chupacabras jumps up and bites me on the ass, I'm going to damn well make sure I tackle the little freak and show it to the world.  


#5    theSOURCE

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE (sarkypi @ Oct 5 2003, 02:14 AM)
To apply the rules of science to the metaphysical make no sense to me.  Perhaps we need to create a different set of rules for the metaphysical.

Good point sarky.

It's a shame most scientists frown on the idea of the possible existence of anything metaphysical.


#6    reese2

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 02:29 AM

Hey, I'm with you Source........

I have to have something tangible, to fully believe.  I can only believe what my two eyes have seen, this far.  And, it isn't the smoking gun that I would like.

I do, however, have a tendancy to look at say ABDUCTEES, and weigh what they say, and who they are as people, equally.  Meaning, don't come to me and tell me that you have been abducted, without an understanding that the ones that weren't there, just have a hard time swallowing it, without something good to wash it down.  I can believe, but you have to allow room for critisism.  (You just have to expect it, I get it all the time)

Before I had my 'experiences', I never even thought of UFO's.  Really, never.  I was just mulling around life, not really thinking about anything outside of this world.  But, now, I know what I know.  (Which isn't a tremendous amount)   dontgetit.gif   But, it is what it is.

I don't think anyone blindly believes, before they have something happen to them, then it changes all the rules.  So, for me, I look at people that don't even believe in basic UFO's (which could be quite mundane, I am not saying they are neccessarily ET's) and I understand why they don't believe, because I didn't either.

I have to say, anyone that just blindly believes, is a fool.  That is my thought on the whole thing.  

I believe that ghosts are possible, but I haven't seen any, so do I believe?  Hell No...  Takes a lot more than people telling me what they saw, for me to believe anything of the sort. (Even the mounds of pictures that show everything from orbs, to haze, to swirls of light, do nothing for me)  But, I think it is very important that I point out, that I believe it is POSSIBLE.  

So, that is about it......

I do want to say, that this board is about the best out there for Unexplained discussions, because you have a very intelligent crowd, that DOES NOT jump right on the bandwagon of either direction, without some sort of intellectual backing.  I happen to like that very much.   thumbsup.gif  wink2.gif




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#7    Nancy

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:24 AM

SOURCE......
All I can say is? I tried.

I do have unusual photos of the Rose. However, I suspect you wouldn't "buy" it...
no matter how much you trusted me.

QUOTE
I want to know what is behind all this. I want to know the nuts n' bolts explanation, the cell by cell break down.

I have had a few strange encounters that I have no explanation for. But I also don't have anything to show you that what I experienced really did happen

  SOURCE? Those of us interested would also like to know what is behind all this.

Wish I knew a way to help..........

dying is easy ... tis the living that's hard...

#8    theSOURCE

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE
reese -

But, I think it is very important that I point out, that I believe it is POSSIBLE.


I also believe that many of these things are possible, and a few even probable (the existence of sea cryptids, for example). What I can't understand is after 10s or even 100s of years of sightings, no solid evidence has ever surfaced to support those claims. Thousands of hoaxes have been uncovered, but not a single bone fragment or alien artifact has ever been found.

QUOTE
Nancy -

SOURCE......
All I can say is? I tried.

I do have unusual photos of the Rose. However, I suspect you wouldn't "buy" it...
no matter how much you trusted me.


Nancy.

I do believe you. In the short time I've known you on this forum, I've come to realize that you are a very honest and straight forward person. I cannot imagine that you would use something so painful as the loss of your father simply to perpetrate a hoax.

How that yellow rose grew on a red rose bush is a mystery to me, but I will not question your belief that this was/is a gift from him. In fact, I'm happy to know the yellow rose is such a positive and comforting sign for you. I know how devastating the loss of a loved one can be.

QUOTE
SOURCE? Those of us interested would also like to know what is behind all this.

Wish I knew a way to help..........


Maybe I'm asking for too much.






#9    theSOURCE

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE
It makes u wonder about the people that trust science so blindly.  original.gif


Sarky, I have no doubt that the human mind is capable of controlling the human body to the point of healing itself without the use of medication.

I also believe science is just a tool, a current understanding of the laws of nature. It's through the use of scientific methods, however, that I hope the answers to these mysteries can be found.

I wish there were more people who would be willing to view both the scientific and the metaphysical side of things.


#10    Saru

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE

I want empirical evidence. I want proof that can be handled, observed by anyone, prodded and poked with test equipment, and shows the phenomena it represents is real.


It's the Holy Grail of the paranormal, actual physical evidence that proves that something is indeed real beyond doubt.

I don't tend to subscribe to blind faith either, I maintain a degree of skepticism towards most aspects of the paranormal, but I think that it's healthy to do so. I believe that a lot of things are very possible, and even probably in some cases, but I won't accept something simply because someone has said it is true.

What it boils down too, is that without physical evidence, a phenomenon exists because of other people claiming to have witnessed/experienced it, and it's the validity of their claims that determines the validity of what they're claiming.  


#11    Benjo Koolzooie

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:23 PM

QUOTE (theSOURCE @ Oct 4 2003, 11:49 PM)
I want empirical evidence. I want proof that can be handled, observed by anyone, prodded and poked with test equipment, and shows the phenomena it represents is real.

Your not going to find it sat around a computer, best go off and try and find some evidence that can be handled, prodded, poked and so on. thumbsup.gif  

Cherokee Warrior you've lost your battle that's for sure, but what you left behind is still shining.

#12    theSOURCE

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 11:13 PM

QUOTE (Benjo Koolzooie @ Oct 5 2003, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (theSOURCE @ Oct 4 2003, 11:49 PM)
I want empirical evidence. I want proof that can be handled, observed by anyone, prodded and poked with test equipment, and shows the phenomena it represents is real.

Your not going to find it sat around a computer, best go off and try and find some evidence that can be handled, prodded, poked and so on. thumbsup.gif

Benjo, I've been researching this stuff for 37 years now, and I'm still no closer to the proof I seek than when I first began. If it wasn't for a few "unexplainable events" that I experienced I'd say this is all bs.

I use the internet as just another source of information.

I don't care if I have to pursue this for the rest of my life, I'm still hopeful that someday I'll find the answers I'm looking for.


Edit: Darn it, now I'm starting to sound like Fox Mulder. tongue.gif  

Edited by theSOURCE, 05 October 2003 - 11:17 PM.


#13    Seraphina

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 12:10 AM

The truth is out there wink2.gif

...seriously...it is tongue.gif One way or another...the internet might be a useful tool for finding stuff about...well...just about anything...but it's still only ever gonna have what other people have found and, more to the point, what mainstream society is willing to accept is true.

If you want evidence, then go out and find it (probably what she'd be doing if she lived in the US). One way or another, the actual truth of the matter is somewhere out there, and it's always just a matter of time before we come across it...

At least once every couple of years, we hear about some new species of animal being discovered...or about a species that was thought extinct suddenly being sighted...there's a great deal of the world's surface people just simply don't explore (and probably never will), but if you don't consider footprints, hair samples, dung samples, eye witness accounts, native american folk lore, sound recordings, photographs and videos (I'll agree, most of the photos and so on seem to be BS), as evidence...well, they pretty much ARE physical evidence that something is out there....I don't think it's a missing link, as I've said elsewhere, but I think it's some kind of greater ape we simple haven't studied yet.

There's a wealth of evidence out there....just nothing you can rub your nose in yet. Historically, we know there were 12 foot tall bipedal apes that migrated over to the americas, along with humans, when the continents were still joined...what's to stop their decendants still existing over there?

Anyway...I've gone on longer than I meant to...just wanted to say the truth is out there, only a matter of time before someone that doesn't need evidence waved around under their nose goes out and finds it wink2.gif  

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#14    Benjo Koolzooie

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:36 AM

  wink2.gif
QUOTE (Seraphina @ Oct 6 2003, 12:10 AM)

If you want evidence, then go out and find it (probably what she'd be doing if she lived in the US).

Same here, but change she to he.

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#15    snuffypuffer

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:57 AM

I think it's possible that there are just some things we are not meant to know.  I know that sounds retarded but some things defy explanation, and I don't think any one theory can explain it all away.  Take ghosts for instance.  I've never seen one myself, but I know several people whol have, and for the most part I believe them.  They had to have seen something.  Environmental factors and psychological conditions aren't all to blame, because these apparitions are being seen in a variety of places, with the whole spectrum of weather, background noise, lighting, and frames of mind.  I believe the vast majority of things can be explained down to ordinary, mundane natural processes, but there are a few that can't, and maybe they never will.

Nothing to see here.




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