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Hey whats that on the moon ?


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#346    TheGreatWhiteHorse

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:23 AM

Documentaries are not the problem.  Calling awards a director wins 'credentials' in a debate on the moon landing stretches credulity, but even that isnt the problem.

You insulting people is.




#347    TheGreatWhiteHorse

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:43 AM

I tried to debate this topic with you.  You like to jab at people.  You get jabbed back, and you raise it to a completely unnecessary level by insulting my mother.

You want to talk about action and reaction when dealing with people?
Take notes:

Action - you insult my mother.

Reaction - I report you, ignore you, and leave this thread.

G'night.


#348    boggle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:47 AM

Quote


I tried to debate this topic with you.  You like to jab at people.  You get jabbed back, and you raise it to a completely unnecessary level by insulting my mother.

You want to talk about action and reaction when dealing with people?
Take notes:

Action - you insult my mother.

Reaction - I report you, ignore you, and leave this thread.

G'night.


apparently you are oblivious to what you do as well, you initiated the confrontation and i reacted to it.   Are you going to start evading now?

Edited by boggle, 08 June 2006 - 05:49 AM.


#349    ivytheplant

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:49 AM

Quote


I wonder what Apollo 11 moon rocks scientist DR. GERALD WASSERBERG of the California Institute of Technology would state in regards to the moon rocks given during an interview on camera.   Would he state something towards skeptics or towards debunkers of skeptics?


That's interesting. Let me see what I can find about it...

G. J. WASSERBURG
  
Crafoord Laureate and
John D. MacArthur Professor of
Geology and Geophysics,
Emeritus
Ph.D., D.h.c. University of Chicago; D.h.c. University of Brussels,
University of Paris; Sc.D.h.c., Arizona State University,
University of Rennes, University of Torino


  
Isotopic Geochemistry and Cosmochemistry in the Lunatic Asylum

Professor Wasserburg and his colleagues in the "Lunatic Asylum" are carrying forward a vigorous research program in several areas. These range from theoretical studies to the development and application of analytical methods to the study of some natural systems. The research areas of interest are in cosmochemistry, geochemistry and aqueous geochemistry. The general purpose of the cosmochemical research is: 1) to understand the nucleosynthetic and chemical processes which led to the formation of dust grains around presolar stars; 2) to model early nucleosynthesis in galaxies; 3) to establish the chronology of events and processes which led to the formation of the solar system from the interstellar medium, using short and intermediate lifetime radioactive nuclides; 4) to understand the events during the early stages of solar system formation and the development and early evolution of planets. The geochemical studies are directed toward 1) the structure and evolution of large scale reservoirs within the earth and their relationship to major geodynamical processes and 2) the short term processes involving climate change, recent volcanism and fluid-rock interactions. The fluid rock interactions are particularly important with regard to environmental problems and the stability and storage of radioactive waste. Many of these geochemical studies directly involve field work.
The research involves both students and research faculty in experimental and theoretical work. A wide variety of advanced instrumentation and actively used laboratory facilities provide the basis for the studies. A key to all of this research is the effort toward innovation, invention, and discovery. The laboratory has had the good fortune to be successful in identifying and developing new approaches which permit a new look at old problems and the start of new studies. The diverse areas of study by Prof. Wasserburg and his colleagues may be seen in the recent, selected papers listed below.

  
Papers in Cosmochemistry

J. H. Chen, D. A. Papanastassiou and G. J. Wasserburg
Re-Os systematics in chondrites and the fractionation of the Platinum Group Elements. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 62, 3379-3382 (1998).
B-G. Choi, G. R. Huss and G. J. Wasserburg
Presolar corundum and spinel in ordinary chondrites: Origins from AGB stars and a supernova. Science 282, 1284-1289 (1998).

M. Busso, R. Gallino and G. J. Wasserburg
Nucleosynthesis in AGB stars: relevance for galactic enrichment and solar system formation.
Annual Reviews of Astronomy and Astrophys. 37, 239-309 (1999).

B.-G. Choi, G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
Circumstellar hibonite and corundum and nucleosynthesis in asymptotic giant branch stars. Astrophys. J. 522, L133-136 (1999).

H. C. Connolly, Jr., G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
On the formation of Fe-Ni metal in CR2 meteorites. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta, submitted (2000)

W. Hsu, G. J. Wasserburg, and G. R. Huss
High time resolution by use of the 26Al chronometer in the multistage formation of a CAI. Earth Planet. Sci. Lett 182, 15-29, (2000).

Y.-Z. Qian and G. J. Wasserburg
Evolution of O abundance relative to Fe.
Astrophys. J., in press (March, 2001).

G. Srinivasan, G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
A petrographic, chemical, and isotopic study of Ca-Al-Inclusions and Al-rich chondrules from the Axtell (CV3) chondrite. Meteoritics and Planetary Science 35, 1333-1354 (2000).

G. J. Wasserburg and Y.-Z. Qian
A model of metallicity in the evolution of the early universe.
Astrophys. J. 538, L99-L102 (2000).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The University of Chicago Chronicle
October 10, 2002
Vol. 22 No. 2
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/021010/turkevich.shtml

"Turkevich, 1916–2002, studied composition of universe
Anthony Turkevich, a veteran of the Manhattan Project who later developed scientific instruments that identified what constitutes the moon and Mars, died Saturday, Sept. 7, at the Kendal retirement community in Lexington, Va. He was 86.

Turkevich, the James Franck Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in Chemistry and the College, made a career of studying the physical and chemical composition of the universe. His research ranged from observing the fundamental properties of matter with particle accelerators to identifying the chemical composition of meteorites, the lunar surface and the planets. In 1950, for example, he teamed up with Nobel laureate and Chicago physicist Enrico Fermi to calculate the elements produced in the big bang.

“The first real analysis of another planet came from Turkevich’s alpha backscattering experiment on the moon,” said Gerald Wasserburg, the John MacArthur professor emeritus in geology and geophysics at the California Institute of Technology. As a researcher, Wasserburg said, Turkevich “was always deep, penetrating, with exquisite experimental skills and an incredible physical understanding.”

Turkevich was able to analyze the lunar soil with his alpha scattering instrument, which was carried aboard the robotic Surveyor V space probe, and which landed on the moon on Sept. 11, 1967. Turkevich and his team found basalt–volcanic rock–highly laced with titanium at the site. His analysis was based on a new method, and many scientists were initially skeptical of the results. His findings were later vindicated through analysis of lunar samples collected during the Apollo 11 mission, Wasserburg said.

..."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What we hope to gain is, we've got a window right now,
between T equals zero at the beginning of the Solar System and when the Earth
so totally messed up itself, that we can't look at it anymore. We'd like to
look in there, and that window is on the Moon."
  - Dr. Gerald Wasserburg, from the NASA film "Mission to Fra Mauro" of Apollo 14

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/ch13-5.html
"LUNAR EXPLORATION CONCLUDED

Apollo 15's Science Dividend
It was clear even before Scott and his crew returned that Apollo 15 had surpassed all prior missions in both the quantity and variety of information it returned. More than 350 individual soil and rock samples aggregating 77 kilograms (170 pounds), ranging in size from 1 or 2 grams (0.03 to 0.06 ounce) to more than 9.5 kilograms (21 pounds) and taken from two distinct selenological regions (the mare plain and the foot of Hadley Delta), were the richest geological haul of the program.46 The seismometer and the heat flow probes emplaced with the surface experiments package were important in obtaining data on the moon's interior, while the instruments Al Worden had operated in lunar orbit gathered information on the chemical composition of large areas on the front and back sides of the moon.

If the scientists had been unhappy with MSC's cooperation in the early missions, they were overjoyed with the way Apollo 15 was conducted, and several graciously congratulated MSC on it. Gerald Wasserburg of Caltech wrote to Robert R. Gilruth to offer his congratulations "on one of the most brilliant missions in space science ever flown." He particularly praised the fairness and wisdom of the decisions made during the astronauts' explorations, even though he had not always got what he wanted.

..."

"...one of the most brilliant missions in space science ever flown."
  -  Gerald Wasserburg to Robert R. Gilruth, Aug. 9, 1971 on Apollo 15

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I'm sure he will help the theory that the moon landing was a hoax.

Edit: By the way, I emailed Dr. Wasserburg and asked if he could enlighten us with his view on the subject. I will let you know when I get a reply if he responds.

Edited by ivytheplant, 08 June 2006 - 05:50 AM.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

#350    boggle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:52 AM

Quote


That's interesting. Let me see what I can find about it...

G. J. WASSERBURG
  
Crafoord Laureate and
John D. MacArthur Professor of
Geology and Geophysics,
Emeritus
Ph.D., D.h.c. University of Chicago; D.h.c. University of Brussels,
University of Paris; Sc.D.h.c., Arizona State University,
University of Rennes, University of Torino


  
Isotopic Geochemistry and Cosmochemistry in the Lunatic Asylum

Professor Wasserburg and his colleagues in the "Lunatic Asylum" are carrying forward a vigorous research program in several areas. These range from theoretical studies to the development and application of analytical methods to the study of some natural systems. The research areas of interest are in cosmochemistry, geochemistry and aqueous geochemistry. The general purpose of the cosmochemical research is: 1) to understand the nucleosynthetic and chemical processes which led to the formation of dust grains around presolar stars; 2) to model early nucleosynthesis in galaxies; 3) to establish the chronology of events and processes which led to the formation of the solar system from the interstellar medium, using short and intermediate lifetime radioactive nuclides; 4) to understand the events during the early stages of solar system formation and the development and early evolution of planets. The geochemical studies are directed toward 1) the structure and evolution of large scale reservoirs within the earth and their relationship to major geodynamical processes and 2) the short term processes involving climate change, recent volcanism and fluid-rock interactions. The fluid rock interactions are particularly important with regard to environmental problems and the stability and storage of radioactive waste. Many of these geochemical studies directly involve field work.
The research involves both students and research faculty in experimental and theoretical work. A wide variety of advanced instrumentation and actively used laboratory facilities provide the basis for the studies. A key to all of this research is the effort toward innovation, invention, and discovery. The laboratory has had the good fortune to be successful in identifying and developing new approaches which permit a new look at old problems and the start of new studies. The diverse areas of study by Prof. Wasserburg and his colleagues may be seen in the recent, selected papers listed below.

  
Papers in Cosmochemistry

J. H. Chen, D. A. Papanastassiou and G. J. Wasserburg
Re-Os systematics in chondrites and the fractionation of the Platinum Group Elements. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 62, 3379-3382 (1998).
B-G. Choi, G. R. Huss and G. J. Wasserburg
Presolar corundum and spinel in ordinary chondrites: Origins from AGB stars and a supernova. Science 282, 1284-1289 (1998).

M. Busso, R. Gallino and G. J. Wasserburg
Nucleosynthesis in AGB stars: relevance for galactic enrichment and solar system formation.
Annual Reviews of Astronomy and Astrophys. 37, 239-309 (1999).

B.-G. Choi, G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
Circumstellar hibonite and corundum and nucleosynthesis in asymptotic giant branch stars. Astrophys. J. 522, L133-136 (1999).

H. C. Connolly, Jr., G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
On the formation of Fe-Ni metal in CR2 meteorites. Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta, submitted (2000)

W. Hsu, G. J. Wasserburg, and G. R. Huss
High time resolution by use of the 26Al chronometer in the multistage formation of a CAI. Earth Planet. Sci. Lett 182, 15-29, (2000).

Y.-Z. Qian and G. J. Wasserburg
Evolution of O abundance relative to Fe.
Astrophys. J., in press (March, 2001).

G. Srinivasan, G. R. Huss, and G. J. Wasserburg
A petrographic, chemical, and isotopic study of Ca-Al-Inclusions and Al-rich chondrules from the Axtell (CV3) chondrite. Meteoritics and Planetary Science 35, 1333-1354 (2000).

G. J. Wasserburg and Y.-Z. Qian
A model of metallicity in the evolution of the early universe.
Astrophys. J. 538, L99-L102 (2000).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The University of Chicago Chronicle
October 10, 2002
Vol. 22 No. 2
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/021010/turkevich.shtml

"Turkevich, 1916–2002, studied composition of universe
Anthony Turkevich, a veteran of the Manhattan Project who later developed scientific instruments that identified what constitutes the moon and Mars, died Saturday, Sept. 7, at the Kendal retirement community in Lexington, Va. He was 86.

Turkevich, the James Franck Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in Chemistry and the College, made a career of studying the physical and chemical composition of the universe. His research ranged from observing the fundamental properties of matter with particle accelerators to identifying the chemical composition of meteorites, the lunar surface and the planets. In 1950, for example, he teamed up with Nobel laureate and Chicago physicist Enrico Fermi to calculate the elements produced in the big bang.

“The first real analysis of another planet came from Turkevich’s alpha backscattering experiment on the moon,” said Gerald Wasserburg, the John MacArthur professor emeritus in geology and geophysics at the California Institute of Technology. As a researcher, Wasserburg said, Turkevich “was always deep, penetrating, with exquisite experimental skills and an incredible physical understanding.”

Turkevich was able to analyze the lunar soil with his alpha scattering instrument, which was carried aboard the robotic Surveyor V space probe, and which landed on the moon on Sept. 11, 1967. Turkevich and his team found basalt–volcanic rock–highly laced with titanium at the site. His analysis was based on a new method, and many scientists were initially skeptical of the results. His findings were later vindicated through analysis of lunar samples collected during the Apollo 11 mission, Wasserburg said.

..."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What we hope to gain is, we've got a window right now,
between T equals zero at the beginning of the Solar System and when the Earth
so totally messed up itself, that we can't look at it anymore. We'd like to
look in there, and that window is on the Moon."
  - Dr. Gerald Wasserburg, from the NASA film "Mission to Fra Mauro" of Apollo 14

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/ch13-5.html
"LUNAR EXPLORATION CONCLUDED

Apollo 15's Science Dividend
It was clear even before Scott and his crew returned that Apollo 15 had surpassed all prior missions in both the quantity and variety of information it returned. More than 350 individual soil and rock samples aggregating 77 kilograms (170 pounds), ranging in size from 1 or 2 grams (0.03 to 0.06 ounce) to more than 9.5 kilograms (21 pounds) and taken from two distinct selenological regions (the mare plain and the foot of Hadley Delta), were the richest geological haul of the program.46 The seismometer and the heat flow probes emplaced with the surface experiments package were important in obtaining data on the moon's interior, while the instruments Al Worden had operated in lunar orbit gathered information on the chemical composition of large areas on the front and back sides of the moon.

If the scientists had been unhappy with MSC's cooperation in the early missions, they were overjoyed with the way Apollo 15 was conducted, and several graciously congratulated MSC on it. Gerald Wasserburg of Caltech wrote to Robert R. Gilruth to offer his congratulations "on one of the most brilliant missions in space science ever flown." He particularly praised the fairness and wisdom of the decisions made during the astronauts' explorations, even though he had not always got what he wanted.

..."

"...one of the most brilliant missions in space science ever flown."
  -  Gerald Wasserburg to Robert R. Gilruth, Aug. 9, 1971 on Apollo 15

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I'm sure he will help the theory that the moon landing was a hoax.

Edit: By the way, I emailed Dr. Wasserburg and asked if he could enlighten us with his view on the subject. I will let you know when I get a reply if he responds.


Quote

G. J. WASSERBURG


well done on your written information gathering but if you read my post i was asking towards an interview on camera and what he would state then.

Edited by boggle, 08 June 2006 - 05:54 AM.


#351    ivytheplant

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:56 AM

By the way, I was wondering about that so-called footage from NASA where it's shown them faking things.

Why would they film that?

Seriously, if you're trying to fool the entire world, why would you do something so deliberate as to FILM IT! This is like meth heads filming themselves making meth and then giving it to the police.

I think that in itself shows that the so-called footage is bogus.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

#352    boggle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:00 AM

Quote


By the way, I was wondering about that so-called footage from NASA where it's shown them faking things.

Why would they film that?

Seriously, if you're trying to fool the entire world, why would you do something so deliberate as to FILM IT! This is like meth heads filming themselves making meth and then giving it to the police.

I think that in itself shows that the so-called footage is bogus.


lol so you are relating footage of inventing reality to footage of meth-heads turning evidence to police?  well that question does relate towards the why the apollo 11 telementry tapes are missing.  Nobody has turn the tapes over to the police... do you see any difference?  The footage taken was shown world wide remember? these people that created the documentaries have taken that same footage and have scrutinized it.  President Clinton even recalls watching it on tv so if the question as to the validity of the footage is evident then why not let people scrutinize the footage aired?  why not look at the still photos brought back from the astronauts? why not take a second look at the moon rocks instead of taking the government's word at that time?  why not look at the telemetry tapes if Dr. David Williams of the National Space Science Center at NASA's Goddard Space Center in Maryland ever manages to find them?

If someone wants to create a documentary that would make debunkers of skeptics happy then i dont see why they shouldnt be able to do so unless they cant for some odd reason.  Why hasnt NASA done their own documentaries that actually debunks the skeptics? are they waiting for an invitation?  dont they want to stop the flow of documentaries that are being shown in colleges that seem to strike the heart of pride?

admit it, all of you well wishers would love to stop the flow of documentaries that are being shown in colleges, why isnt NASA reacting?

Edited by boggle, 08 June 2006 - 06:25 AM.


#353    ivytheplant

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:01 AM

Quote


well done on your written information gathering but if you read my post i was asking towards an interview on camera and what he would state then.


Why do you think I emailed him?

Oh, I get it. If he believes that the moon landing was real (and since he was involved, I'm guessing "yes") and says so in an email, you'll just claim it's false or doesn't count because it wasn't on camera.

He was on camera when he said:
"What we hope to gain is, we've got a window right now,
between T equals zero at the beginning of the Solar System and when the Earth
so totally messed up itself, that we can't look at it anymore. We'd like to
look in there, and that window is on the Moon."
- Dr. Gerald Wasserburg, from the NASA film "Mission to Fra Mauro" of Apollo 14

Waspie and MID are right. You're a troll. You insult people's mother, use scientist's names to support your claims when they don't (and would be insulted that they were used by you) and do pretty much everything else we already knew.

Have fun.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

#354    ivytheplant

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:02 AM

Quote


lol so you are relating footage of inventing reality to footage of meth-heads turning evidence to police?


I'm saying it's just as idiotic to film yourself making a hoax that big as it is to film yourself committing a crime.

NASA wouldn't do that because they weren't complete morons.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

#355    AGN Fuel

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:21 AM

Quote


Edit: By the way, I emailed Dr. Wasserburg and asked if he could enlighten us with his view on the subject. I will let you know when I get a reply if he responds.


Hi Ivy,

I would be very interested in his reply, if he has no objection to you sharing it.  I do know that Gerry Wasserburg was initially opposed in the mid-60's to the intensive training that the Apollo astronauts were receiving in geology from Lee Silver, et al.  It is possible that whatever this claimed footage is may stem from that period.  However, after the success of A-15, he publicly congratulated the flight, describing it (as you note) as "One of the most brilliant missions in space science ever flown". Nothing I have seen from him suggests that he ever doubted the authenticity of the samples that he worked on.




#356    boggle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:31 AM

Quote


Why do you think I emailed him?

Oh, I get it. If he believes that the moon landing was real (and since he was involved, I'm guessing "yes") and says so in an email, you'll just claim it's false or doesn't count because it wasn't on camera.

He was on camera when he said:
"What we hope to gain is, we've got a window right now,
between T equals zero at the beginning of the Solar System and when the Earth
so totally messed up itself, that we can't look at it anymore. We'd like to
look in there, and that window is on the Moon."
- Dr. Gerald Wasserburg, from the NASA film "Mission to Fra Mauro" of Apollo 14

Waspie and MID are right. You're a troll. You insult people's mother, use scientist's names to support your claims when they don't (and would be insulted that they were used by you) and do pretty much everything else we already knew.

Have fun.


hmm... ive read the prior posts coming from 2 directions.  The skeptics side is stating the same troll aspects that you are referring to but not towards me, odd isnt it when it involves perspectives.  Can you tell me why NASA hasnt reacted to the inflow of documentaries being shown in colleges? when it directly involves them.  This has been going on for at least a couple of years now, are they waiting for an invitation?

Edited by boggle, 08 June 2006 - 06:37 AM.


#357    ivytheplant

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:58 AM

Quote


hmm... ive read the prior posts coming from 2 directions.  The skeptics side is stating the same troll aspects that you are referring to but not towards me, odd isnt it when it involves perspectives.  Can you tell me why NASA hasnt reacted to the inflow of documentaries being shown in colleges? when it directly involves them.  This has been going on for at least a couple of years now, are they waiting for an invitation?


Because the evidence speaks for itself and unlike me, they don't stoop to feeding trolls.

I think I'll go read some comic books. Batman may be fictional, but at least he knows the moon landing wasn't a hoax.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

#358    AGN Fuel

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:05 AM

Quote


hmm... ive read the prior posts coming from 2 directions.  The skeptics side is stating the same troll aspects that you are referring to but not towards me, odd isnt it when it involves perspectives.  Can you tell me why NASA hasnt reacted to the inflow of documentaries being shown in colleges? when it directly involves them.  This has been going on for at least a couple of years now, are they waiting for an invitation?


In fact, a couple of years ago, NASA commissioned James Oberg to write a book debunking the moon hoax theories. There was a storm of public opinion about a government body wasting taxpayer funds to appease a bunch of fruitloops.

Fortunately, sanity prevailed and the project was shelved. Frankly, NASA's budget is tight enough without wasting it on the looney faction. I would far rather an experiment be incorporated on an upcoming mission, than a book be prepared in order to be ignored by  people who are clearly incapable or unwilling to negotiate in rational debate.




#359    boggle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:34 AM

Quote


In fact, a couple of years ago, NASA commissioned James Oberg to write a book debunking the moon hoax theories. There was a storm of public opinion about a government body wasting taxpayer funds to appease a bunch of fruitloops.

Fortunately, sanity prevailed and the project was shelved. Frankly, NASA's budget is tight enough without wasting it on the looney faction. I would far rather an experiment be incorporated on an upcoming mission, than a book be prepared in order to be ignored by  people who are clearly incapable or unwilling to negotiate in rational debate.


heheh, they shelved a book? a book? that's a shame.  James Oberg  regarded as an expert on the Russian space program.

He was approached by NASA to write a rebuttal of Apollo moon landing hoax accusations, but it is not clear that the manuscript was ever started, and NASA promptly announced their intention not to publish the book soon after their announcement that they had commissioned it.--excerpt taken from wikipedia.


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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:37 AM

Quote


heheh, they shelved a book? a book? that's a shame.  James Oberg  regarded as an expert on the Russian space program.

He was approached by NASA to write a rebuttal of Apollo moon landing hoax accusations, but it is not clear that the manuscript was ever started, and NASA promptly announced their intention not to publish the book soon after their announcement that they had commissioned it.--excerpt taken from wikipedia.


Oberg is regarded as an expert on manned space flight. Full stop.

Apart from this hairsplit, what else have you added here that I did not in my last post?





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