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my moon landing theory and evidence


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#346    AROCES

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 09:14 AM

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I'm sorry i just don't think we went to the moon when they said we did....They had to beat Russia there....



     Think about it, it would be impossible to pull a Hoax of that magniture, with so many people involved and so many watching.
     Makes going to the moon actually a lot easier.



#347    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:20 AM

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I'm sorry i just don't think we went to the moon when they said we did....They had to beat Russia there....


Actually it is because they were in a race with the Soviet Union that it is impossiblr that the moon landings were faked. The Soviets had sent spacecraft (albeit unmanned vehicles) around the moon before America, so they were capable of tracking Apollo. We know that the Soviet missions were not fake because they were tracked from the west. Some of the first pictures of the far side of the moon were release by Jodrell Bank Radio Telescope in the UK BEFORE the Soviets released them. So if we could track their missions they could track ours. The only way Apollo could possibly be faked is if the Soviet Union was part of the cover up, but as the Soviets were trying to beat the USA why would thet lie?

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf, 17 June 2006 - 11:21 AM.

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#348    boggle

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:13 PM

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Actually it is because they were in a race with the Soviet Union that it is impossiblr that the moon landings were faked. The Soviets had sent spacecraft (albeit unmanned vehicles) around the moon before America, so they were capable of tracking Apollo. We know that the Soviet missions were not fake because they were tracked from the west. Some of the first pictures of the far side of the moon were release by Jodrell Bank Radio Telescope in the UK BEFORE the Soviets released them. So if we could track their missions they could track ours. The only way Apollo could possibly be faked is if the Soviet Union was part of the cover up, but as the Soviets were trying to beat the USA why would thet lie?


actually that is reverse psychology while trying to entail it with impossiblity when in fact the Solviets could very well be in the dark since they had no other choice but to recieve what was being fed worldwide by NASA.  The solviets also didnt want to create a rift especially after merging efforts, your limitation is superficial and not an impossiblity.

Edited by boggle, 17 June 2006 - 12:17 PM.


#349    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 02:42 PM

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i read their article relating to what is being addressed now but i noticed that they evade what has been questioned by reforming the question with this:

"This argument is based on the assumption that all hypergolic engines behave the same way."   (Jay's statement from Clavius article previously referred to...)

when in fact that is not what is being proposed especially being that the time frame in question is the initial beginning of the saturn V.  They use a broad range of scenarios but do not specifically address the fuels used at the time frame that is an integral part of the question.  That is why the engineer who proposes questions is referring to the era in time he had experience with and not as they are outlining with the different variations being used today.  They did a nice job of evasion that is for sure.  It would have been better if they would have actually submitted the fuel usage documentation for saturn V during the specified era but instead they give the runaround.



I wonder what actually is being addressed now... no.gif

We actually discussed the use of the term hypergolic before in reference to the post regarding exhaust trails of the Saturn V which weren't consistent with hypergolic fuels.

I also pointed out the falacy in that statement, as Jay would as well, were he to have read it, by stating a fact that once again, was not read.

HYPERGOLICS WERE NOT USED TO POWER THE SATURN V.

Jay is discussing hypergolic engine operation, not the Saturn V engine operation.  Hypergolics are self-igniting fuels which were used in the thrusters on the CSM and LM, and on the LM DPS and APS engines.  

The fuels used on the Saturn V first stage (which are the only exhaust trails anyone ever saw on a Saturn V) were, as previously indicated , RP-1 ( a kerosene based fuel) and LOX as an oxidizer.

I don't know how this information will help...but the question was asked:

The S-1-C stage contained approximately 315,000 gallons of liquid oxygen, and approximately 190,000 gallons of RP-1.

The RP-1 was consumed at a rate of ~1275 gallons per second, and the LOX at ~1900 gallons per second.  The S-1-C burned for ~2.7 minutes, during which time it boosted the Apollo package to around 35 miles in altitude and a velocity of around 6000 MPH.   It was then dumped, and the S-II stage took over, using it's cryogenic LOX and liquid hydrogen...

None of these fuels were hypergolic.

The exhaust trail seen from the S-I-C was perfectly consistent with RP-1/LOX burning...a big, huge flame.  


Further reading of what's posted here, and a little further reading of what Jay is actually talking about, might make that clear.


#350    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 02:54 PM

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An opinion towards an event that is supposedly declassified? the documents should be available should they not? just like the telemetry tapes.  When clavius submits the opinion its not addressing the question but rather giving differing varations unspecified towards the initial stages of the moon program.  They dont address the question but reform the question so that they obscure the answer entirely.



The documents are available.  Have been for years.
Telemetry tapes?

All telemetry was analyzed to death after each flight.  Voluminous analysis is available on this telemetry...which was of course used for engineeering analysis.   If the tapes no longer exist, what's the big deal?  Their content is well-documented in technical analyses and reports that the general public would have no interest in, and would likely have no understanding of anyway.  

What's the big deal?  
Apollo is the most documented technical and scientific accomplishment in human history.

The bizarre part of this is that the vast majority of information, including the boring and excruciatingly detailed technical stuff is available for public consumption.   Most all of it can be found on the Web.  

Why hasn't this person used his brain and done so?
Then again...if one doesn't read the relatively simple information presented here, why should anyone assume that a link to a technical article on S-IC-6's (or any other of the S-I-Cs) performance would be read either?


#351    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:03 PM

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Imo i would rather believe some of the names ive mentioned earlier especially the rocket engineer who worked on ICBM's around the same time the apollo missions were allegedly ongoing.  



That's really the bottom line, isn't it.

This person will "believe" no one who actually has knowledge, and will do no research to confirm or deny any information presented him.   He will simply hold to his opinion...uninformed as it may be.

That's OK, of course, but it does nothing for the content of a thread which should, in principal, inspire some discussion, and of course some learning.   Apollo, space flight, and all the associated disciplines are not about "belief".   They are about experience and knowledge.

Belief is conjecture.  We did not accomplish Apollo based upon conjecture, nor does any one learn anything on that basis.

This person states that he prefers to believe rather than to know.   He's entitled to that.  It's sad, of course, but he's entitled to it.

If he is not willing to learn, and prefers only to believe fallacious information, then the only reason he's still here is in order to argue (despite the fact he's already lost that arguement), and to feed his ego in seeing himself in print...saying the same uneducated things over and over again in the face of overwhelming information to the contrary.

It's a waste of everyone's time.


#352    boggle

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:10 PM


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The documents are available.  Have been for years.


the footage that was aired did not include still photos and even the footage has been pointed out with discrepencies even in australia by common folk

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Telemetry tapes?


does Dr. David Williams of the National Space Science Center at NASA's Goddard Space Center in Maryland ring a bell?

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What's the big deal?


at this point im not suprised that you still dont have a clue
  

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Apollo is the most documented technical and scientific accomplishment in human history.


that is your opinion which is not shared unanimously and imo they were and still are deceptively hiding the truth.

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The bizarre part of this is that the vast majority of information, including the boring and excruciatingly detailed technical stuff is available for public consumption.   Most all of it can be found on the Web.  


is that so? then why arent your so called independant sources putting the documentation so as to get to the point instead of giving a runaround like they are presenting it currently.

QUOTE
Then again...if one doesn't read the relatively simple information presented here, why should anyone assume that a link to a technical article on S-IC-6's (or any other of the S-I-Cs) performance would be read either?


first you state they are readily available and now you excuse them for their opinionated statements that dont even convey a straight forward answer to the questions and skeptism being proposed.  Its as if they are squirming like you are doing now.



#353    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:13 PM

I thought we already covered this MID, boggle is a troll, he is only here to "stir it up" (his own words).

The moderators on this forum are not doing their job, if you ask me. I always thought it was a place to change ideas and or learn/teach.  I guess I was wrong.

Edited by hazzard, 17 June 2006 - 03:23 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#354    boggle

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:24 PM

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I thought we already covered this MID, boggle is a troll, he is only here to "stir it up" (his own words).

The moderators on this forum are not doing their job, if you ask me.


just because someone is a skeptic and this is taking into consideration of any subject matter doesnt mean that person equates to being a troll.  The only thing you have ever put into this thread is name calling, out of all the posts throughout this thread there is not one piece of info you have provided.  None, so who is being the troll?  you.  In fact out of 2 threads addressing this subject you have not even provided anything but name calling--FACT.

Edited by boggle, 17 June 2006 - 03:27 PM.


#355    Lilly

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:43 PM

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just because someone is a skeptic and this is taking into consideration of any subject matter doesnt mean that person equates to being a troll...


True, but skeptics do not dismiss scientific facts and direct evidence. You asked for the educated opinion of engineers and rocket scientists awhile back, I posted a link to Dr. Jay Windley's website...you then simply dismissed him as well! No amount of factual information or scientific evidence ever seems to be sufficient for you.

No, your behavior has not been skeptical, I would characterize it as being dismissive and not based upon the scientific evidence...at all. I have the distinct impression that you are dismissing a great deal of scientific facts and evidence simply to be difficult? I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.

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#356    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:24 PM

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I thought we already covered this MID, boggle is a troll, he is only here to "stir it up" (his own words).

The moderators on this forum are not doing their job, if you ask me. I always thought it was a place to change ideas and or learn/teach.  I guess I was wrong.



Yes, haz.  We did.
I guess he didn't read my reference to his words above...

And, based upon the answers he provided in post 352 above, which are completely...well...you know, I'm afraid he just hasn't got the message.

He will, as Lilly said, remain--not skeptical, but rather, obstinately dismissive.   He refuses to read, and get the point, preferring to go off on irrelevant tangents.   I've defined "opinion" for him and "belief".  He ignores it.   He actually came out and said that the idea of Apollo being the most documented scientific and technical accomplishment in human history is my opinion!

Of course, he ignores the reality that it is a fact, not an opinion.

Good Lord.

I know some people are laughing at this...


#357    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:39 PM

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Of course, he ignores the reality that it is a fact, not an opinion.

Good Lord.

I know some people are laughing at this...



I know I am.  laugh.gif  IGNORANCE IS TRULY BLISS.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#358    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:48 PM

Once again...

If he is not willing to learn, and prefers only to believe fallacious information, then the only reason he's still here is in order to argue (despite the fact he's already lost that arguement), and to feed his ego in seeing himself in print...saying the same uneducated things over and over again in the face of overwhelming information to the contrary.

It's a waste of everyone's time.






Why are you here?
If all you will do is obstinately ignore the facts, refuse to research, and argue from a position of nothing at all, going off on irrelevancies as you do?

You are destroying the thread's potential, as Hazzard, and myself have indicated repeatedly...


And, as I said,

Quote

That's really the bottom line, isn't it.

This person will "believe" no one who actually has knowledge, and will do no research to confirm or deny any information presented him. He will simply hold to his opinion...uninformed as it may be.

That's OK...



Thus, you have no purpose continuing. There is no point in your being in this thread.  You've been adamant about your "opinion".

Why not take it, and leave.  We all understand it.
It's fallacious, but you will not alter it, or even attempt to discuss it.  

We say, "The Sun is a star".   You say, "No it's not".   We show you the incontrivertible evidence.   You say, "No, it's not."   And on, and on...

That...is trolling.

Attempting to convince people that actually have experience in these areas is folly...but of course, you know that.



#359    MID

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:50 PM

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I know I am.  laugh.gif  IGNORANCE IS TRULY BLISS.



To paraphrase Jay over at BAUT, it must be wonderful to live a life completely unencumbered by reality...

grin2.gif


#360    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 05:07 PM

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To paraphrase Jay over at BAUT, it must be wonderful to live a life completely unencumbered by reality...

grin2.gif


yes.gif  I have on more than one occation told people here to take their "theories" over to BAUT,were they can get real scientific answers, they never do, and I always wonder why.

Edited by hazzard, 17 June 2006 - 05:13 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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