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Got milk? Got B.S.


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#256    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:20 PM

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Frog that is a mattter of perspective and choice . Oh for cripes sake  .Hyper's intellegence speaks for itself frog stop this is just silly......FYI Hyper and micheal are dear friends of mine who I have the greatest resepect for and enjoy their posts and learning from them...
frog Alcohol isn't good for you you may choose too drink it but as far as your liver is concerned its not good for you....

Yes. When it is your perspective its right. When its anyone else its wrong.Hmm. Thats a little close minded. One of the healthiest diets is mediterainean(greens, olive oil, wine, and some meats and cheeses).

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#257    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:22 PM

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frog, this is what it says on the back of a bottle of wine, that I'm looking at right this minute.....

The goverment warning...According to the surgeon general Pregnant
1)Women shouldn't drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of  the risk of birth defects.
2) Consumption of alchoholic beverages impairs the ability to drive a car and operate machinery and may cause health problems....

Now I ask you Frog which would you beleive a study put out to sell wine or the surgeon general ?
Wine is not good for you end of story.......

The grape is great for you. I am sure you know the benefits of grape seed extract. When I was nursing school, a doctor told be that he had never seen a alcoholic with heart disease. Now, I am not saying overindulge, but a glass or two of wine a day works.

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#258    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:24 PM

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Next are you guys gonna say sniffing glue is good for you "in moderation" or crack lol........boys alcohol isn't good for you frog and meglo your brains are still developing...  "Say no to drugs " thumbsup.gif

Sherri. How come your sources are always valid, but anyone elses are not good enough. blush.gif Hey, I am being nicer.

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#259    mklsgl

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 07:09 PM

This is a never-ending debate--which ought to be self-evident by now.

Studies are a great resource, however, facts and stats don't speak for themselves: data needs a context. That context is usually cultural and based upon the socialization process.

We can speak in generalities but then again, to paraphrase William Blake, "Anyone who speaks in generalities is an idiot." This leaves us to speak from our own contexts and from our individual contexts we may then move to apply what we have come to prove beyond reasonable doubt to a larger context. However, in doing so, the risk of mistake is greater because what may be true in your context may not apply elsewhere. Information is a "hot" commodity; caveat emptor! (...buyer beware!)

Edited by mklsgl, 11 June 2006 - 04:42 PM.

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#260    hyperactive

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 08:17 PM

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Stop being Hyper's cronie Sheri...He's not god,

blashemy! grin2.gif

anyway,  alcohol is a poison, but indeed studies have shown positive health effects from wine and beer.  I have not studied this area since it does not effect me (I don't consume alcohol).  I have a relative that consumes wine for its blood thinning properties as he suffers from blood clots.  It is a case of evaluating the risks vs the rewards to yourself.

Quote


I don't understand how asking almost every doctor in Australia (hopefully, almost all of them will see the message), is "shopping".
So far out of the multiple hundred (as far as my doctor has reported) doctors that have replied to the message, 100% can't find problems in milk.

I went to the nutritionist, she said that milk is important in everyone's diet.
Now, I don't know how far across Australia I can ask,
But I'll get the opinions of as many nutritionists I can.

Also, my milk sample came back.
No diseases, not toxins.
Just 100% pure healthy milk thumbsup.gif
Ah yes, I'm in Australia.
But if the US are doing this, would Australia really be too far behind?

And I'm trying to find both sides. But so far, the professionals are very one-sided.
Not my fault if they all agree thumbsup.gif


Why don't you read the research that has been done on the topic?
Doctors are not trained on nutrition, and as a profession are slow to learn of advances in knowledge on nutrition.  

Remember when doctors promoted smoking?

Are you asking these doctors why they are of a particular stance?  Is it because they have reviewed particular research on the topic and have concluded X, or is it because that is just what they have taken as truth because they were told so as children?  When your doctor merely laughed and said "are you serious" (or whatever his exact words were to that effect) he provided no reason for his position and you accepted it merely on authority (and that it conformed to your beliefs - people always accept supporting evidence with less scrutiny).

Anyway, it sounded like shopping when you said you asked a doctor, and you were going to ask a nutritionist.  

Would it not make more sense for you to examine the research that has been done on milk and meat in the diet and draw your own conclusions from that?  
here is a link i posted in the other thread you may be interested in:
http://articles.animalconcerns.org/ar-voic...tural_diet.html

Edited by hyperactive, 10 June 2006 - 08:45 PM.


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#261    Sherapy

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 11:34 PM

Quote


This is a never-ending debate--which ought to be self-evident by now.

Studies are great resource, however, facts and stats don't speak for themselves: data needs a context. That context is usually cultural and based upon the socialization process.

We can speak in generalities but then again, to paraphrase William Blake, "Anyone who speaks in generalities is an idiot." This leaves us to speak from our own contexts and from our individual contexts we may then move to apply what we have come to prove beyond reasonable doubt to a larger context. However, in doing so, the risk of mistake is greater because what may be true in your context may not apply elsewhere. Information is a "hot" commodity; caveat emptor! (...buyer beware!)

Very good post Micheal, a very interesting way to look at how we buy information first, I like to say we like to a buy a really good story... w00t.gif


As Hyper pointed out doctors not only aren't nutrtionists they don't always have the time or need to stay abreast of things, also another part to figure in is they have to excersie extreme caution, they may be well aware that Joe alcoholic drinks a 12 pack a day and his health issues are relatied to that but to tell joe alcoholic is yet another issue altoghter...the majority of Americans are not interested in changing anything, they want to keep the same habits.the doctor wants to keeps his pateints HMO amd PPO is big buisness ..We can't forget either that medicine now is a huge drug hub, medicine is practiced in that way now its not about prevention  its about disease managment and the health care industry is a huge drug buisness  through pharmecueticals .........


#262    Megalomania

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 01:50 AM

Quote



Remember when doctors promoted smoking?

Are you asking these doctors why they are of a particular stance?  Is it because they have reviewed particular research on the topic and have concluded X, or is it because that is just what they have taken as truth because they were told so as children?  When your doctor merely laughed and said "are you serious" (or whatever his exact words were to that effect) he provided no reason for his position and you accepted it merely on authority (and that it conformed to your beliefs - people always accept supporting evidence with less scrutiny).

Anyway, it sounded like shopping when you said you asked a doctor, and you were going to ask a nutritionist.  

Would it not make more sense for you to examine the research that has been done on milk and meat in the diet and draw your own conclusions from that?  
here is a link i posted in the other thread you may be interested in:
http://articles.animalconcerns.org/ar-voic...tural_diet.html


Just because something's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true.
I can find websites on the internet which outline that lizardmen have enslaved the Earth!
Also, if am able to contact the majority of doctors in Australia, they should give me a good measure of milk-related diseases.

And I asked him if he had ever found any problems related to milk.
He said no.
Was he supposed to give me an essay on all the patients he has measured, and how they weren't having problems with milk?
No. (Obviously not counting Lactose Intolerance)

Your arguments are not making any sense anymore.

Oh yes, and I notice that you completely avoided my nutritionist's opinion, and the milk sample. Good on you.

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#263    hyperactive

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 02:59 AM

what i said about doctors also applies to nutritionists.  Have them provide the supporting evidence for their opinion.

Why don't you ask him if he LOOKED for any milk related issues.  hmm.gif Now you are not making sense!  How would his not encountering a condition where milk was a contributing factor show that milk is not a contributing factor in disease?  This is not a binary process.  Multiple factors contribute to the risk of disease, and if a doctor does not look for a particular cause he won't find it.  Misdiagnosis is a serious issue.

I mentioned before that if you look at post-mortum studies you will find doctors do no better than random guessing at correctly identifying underlying cuases of the diseases that caused the deaths.  Think about that.

You don't seem too interested in actually researching the research for yourself.  Why is that?  Don't respond with "just because I find something on the internet..." either, because if you were truly interested in the research on nutrition you would be reading the journals that are peer reviewed and not just asking random doctors and nutritionists for opinions. rolleyes.gif

Edited by hyperactive, 11 June 2006 - 03:22 AM.


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#264    Megalomania

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 10:37 AM

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Why don't you ask him if he LOOKED for any milk related issues.  hmm.gif


I did thumbsup.gif

Quote


I mentioned before that if you look at post-mortum studies you will find doctors do no better than random guessing at correctly identifying underlying cuases of the diseases that caused the deaths.  Think about that.


o_o
Guessing, right.

Quote


You don't seem too interested in actually researching the research for yourself.  Why is that?  Don't respond with "just because I find something on the internet..." either, because if you were truly interested in the research on nutrition you would be reading the journals that are peer reviewed and not just asking random doctors and nutritionists for opinions. rolleyes.gif


I don't do internet, because whatever you find. Someone will always just deny it.

For example how Sherri ignored 20 or so sources saying that Alcohol is healthy. (In context)

But hey, if you want, I'll look some stuff up.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10420

More to come.

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#265    hyperactive

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 01:10 PM

who said do internet?

I said go do the research for yourself.  Unless you have academic access you are not going to pull up much of the research on the internet (for free anyway).


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#266    frogfish

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

I agree that getting watsed every day is bad for you, but a glass of wine a day will actually help.

There was a ttime also when people were afraid of eating veggies because of the dangerous toxins and pathogens on them...especially botulism.

Quote

For example how Sherri ignored 20 or so sources saying that Alcohol is healthy. (In context)

I laughed at that. Its amazing how some people can be so close minded. She even resorted to snide remarks about kids! laugh.gif



Quote

blashemy!  

anyway, alcohol is a poison, but indeed studies have shown positive health effects from wine and beer

yes.gif

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#267    hyperactive

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 07:33 PM

its all about identifying the therapeutic-toxic threshold.


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He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
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#268    OlDrippy34

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 07:55 PM

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We can speak in generalities but then again, to paraphrase William Blake, "Anyone who speaks in generalities is an idiot."

A generalization in itself.  BA ZING.  Your move, William Blake.

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#269    Sherapy

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 07:59 PM

Meglo, and MY froggie, The back of the alcohol bottle and wine bottle any alcohol for that matter says it causes birth defects in a  growing baby, also it says it may cause health problems actually it does, the most important being the liver and the brain....I have had alcohol in my life beleived all that crap too yet one glass of wine gave me a horrible headache and knocked me on my but for a few days...also ther are studys that say beer is good for a breast fed baby...well what the mother gets the baby gets and this baby is developing would a mother actually endanger her child esepcially when the label says it can cause birth defects well no parent would endanger there child good grief....and its common knowledege that alcohol affects brain development...some studys should be ignored and one should know how to discern that......


that is no different in my world than cigs, the same warning is on
the label...and i actually had a doctor tell me in the 80's that 10 or so ciggs wouldn't hurt anyone...I was addicted to ciggs and compromising my health for years, i have since been tobacco free for 6 years...tehy didn't know and many who argue for cetrain things are doing it and as long as they think their are 'studys' that support there beleifs well it justifys
their choices...Nature doesn't except excuses never forget that....





#270    Megalomania

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 11:35 PM

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who said do internet?

I said go do the research for yourself.  Unless you have academic access you are not going to pull up much of the research on the internet (for free anyway).

Okay I'll try books and such.

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