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Study Suggests Life Sprang From Clay


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#1    Lionel

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 04:27 AM

user posted imageScience backed up religion this week in a study that suggests life may have indeed sprung from clay -- just as many faiths teach. A team at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston said they had shown materials in clay were key to some of the initial processes in forming life. Specifically, a clay mixture called montmorillonite not only helps form little bags of fat and liquid but helps cells use genetic material called RNA. That, in turn, is one of the key processes of life. Jack Szostak, Martin Hanczyc and Shelly Fujikawa were building on earlier work that found clays could catalyze the chemical reactions needed to make RNA from building blocks called nucleotides. They found the clay sped along the process by which fatty acids formed little bag-like structures called vesicles. The clay also carried RNA into those vesicles. A cell is, in essence, a complex bag of liquidy compounds.

"Thus, we have demonstrated that not only can clay and other mineral surfaces accelerate vesicle assembly, but assuming that the clay ends up inside at least some of the time, this provides a pathway by which RNA could get into vesicles," Szostak said in a statement Thursday.

user posted image View: Full Article | Source: CNN

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#2    AncientLight

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 07:24 AM

Hmmm , so do they mean we formed inside a lump of clay underground and then just started crawling out of the ground ?? blink.gif  


#3    Engulf

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 08:36 AM

  blink.gif .......can we then form a pot out of ourselves?? blink.gif  tongue.gif  

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#4    gonzowalker

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (Engulf @ Oct 27 2003, 07:36 AM)
blink.gif .......can we then form a pot out of ourselves?? blink.gif  tongue.gif

  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  

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#5    Anirbas

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 03:35 AM


Right on!!! It's about time they believed!

Whatever hits the fan will be distributed evenly!

Lord keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth!!!

My life is 10% what happens to me and 90% what I make of it!

#6    weridstuffgirl22

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 08:55 PM

So they finally believe what the bible says! As it says in  Genesis 2 7:8
"And the Lord God formed a man's body from the dust of the ground and
breathed into it the breath of life. And the man became a living person."
So ha ha we are finally starting to accept the bible! God Bless!  clap.gif    idea.gif     grin2.gif     notworthy.gif       thumbup.gif  


#7    Seraphina

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 10:15 PM

It's been observed that some of the substances in clay can help cell functions, not create cells itself tongue.gif Don't get too excited yet people. From what I'm reading up there, they're saying it's a natural catalyst, not a building block.

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#8    soulfire78

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE
It's been observed that some of the substances in clay can help cell functions, not create cells itself  Don't get too excited yet people. From what I'm reading up there, they're saying it's a natural catalyst, not a building block.


Very true.  However, it depends on how you  look at the old testament.  Originally Judaism was an oral tradition, much like many older religions.  The old testament was written down after much later than its origins.  That means that there may have been mistakes.  Especially since it was written down by people.

If you take into account that our human ancestors wouldn't have had any idea that cells were neccessary for life,  then it is possible to see how it might be misconstrued that "life came from clay", or that humans were shaped from it.  I've read quite a bit on this site alone about genetic memory.  Maybe (this is ony a theory) our ancestors--who didn't have the chance to write things down--inherited the memory of life starting as low as clay.  Is it probable? who knows?  But it is a possibility.

Native american culture--different tribes--have beliefs that they were born of the red clay of the earth.   There are even tribes (Navajo or Shoshone?) that don't believe this is the first, or even the second "earth".  For them this is either the third or fourth that has come into being, earlier versions having been destroyed because evil people over ran them.

She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that 's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impair'd the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o'er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.

And on that cheek, and o'er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!

Lord Byron

#9    Seraphina

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 12:20 AM

lol...genetic memory...please, not this again...

Memory is stored in the brain...not in the genes, not in the cells, and certainly not in prokaryotic cells, which didn't even have a nucliod. Organisms that do not have a brain (ie: single celled organisms) do not have memory (or consciousness for that matter). Nothing can be 'passed on'.

The idea that life began from clay most likely comes from the fact that clay was one of the first substances we humans used to build things. It seems quite logical that they'd come to the conclusion that some kind of divine sculpturer would have created them in the same way they did a statue.

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#10    Kryso

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 02:56 AM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 1 2003, 05:20 PM)
lol...genetic memory...please, not this again...

Memory is stored in the brain...not in the genes, not in the cells, and certainly not in prokaryotic cells, which didn't even have a nucliod.

If nothing can be passed on, how do you explain incestís and other animals, that never met their parents (some even die providing new life) and yet these small insects, or animals copy the same traits as their parents, and all other creatures of their kind, who they have never met or leant from.

Example:

The cuckoo - every cuckoo that hatches (without being taught) pushes the other eggs from the nest!

Spiders - when they are born, most instantly flee, to grow up and defend for themselves. Who taught them how to make intricate complicated web designs. Most species of spiders have their particular design, that was never taught, but they copy it (even when never seeing the design before) right down to a perfect replica.

Fish - salmon for example, never meet their parents, are squirted onto a rock or waterweed, then fertilised. Their parents die before they are even born. So how do they know what to do? Never being taught they return once again, at the exact time required to continue the race.

Birds Ė make long complicated migrations without being taught the journey, and never shown the way.

So Iím afraid (No offence) that I beg to differ.
I studied Zoology for 4 years, and have gone over this topic many times, and Iím afraid your logic has a hole in it Ė and nature can prove that hole exists.



#11    Seraphina

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 04:02 AM

QUOTE
I studied Zoology for 4 years, and have gone over this topic many times, and Iím afraid your logic has a hole in it Ė and nature can prove that hole exists.


Study harder tongue.gif

We know that genetic information passed on in the genes includes sequences to induce responces to certain situations. It has absolutely nothing to do with memory. Memory is independant from an animal's genes, only affecting them AFTER they have developed. In order for 'memory' to be transfered, the genes of an animal would have to literaly changd with each and every single experience a creature has, not to mention the fact that each and every one of its offspring would be inheriting a different set of 'instructions' as new experiences were had between births.

You can argue the hole in my arguement if you like...however I think you'll find that the sheer lunacy of claiming memory can somehow be magically passed on from parent to child is so illogical, I struggle to understand what you were being taught for those four years huh.gif

Inborn instincts such as these are passed on just like physical traits from parent to child. Back in the sands of time, certain animals who's brains were wired (due to genetic configuration) to behave in a particular way were better suited to survival than those who were note wired in such a way...as a result, the genes giving these genetic marching orders were passed on, while the creatures that didn't have them were gradualy eliminated.

'Memory' has absolutely nothing to do with it.  tongue.gif  

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#12    Kryso

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 04:21 AM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 1 2003, 09:02 PM)
We know that genetic information passed on in the genes includes sequences to induce responces to certain situations. It has absolutely nothing to do with memory.

When you say WE, who is the we?  tongue.gif

I studied 4 years and this is what is being taught to future Drís in the Zoology field. Maybe you should become a lecturer or teacher, because you seem to know more than all the professors that taught me!

You say the information is passed on in the genes, but surely it would need translating through the brain, or is there another means of controlling a body that we donít know about? So, the genes to control the future insect (or whatever) is held in the foot? Arm? Or does it hold it in the brain? So, if its genetic, surely it has to originate in the brain, hence, called a memory? Correct me if Iím wrong, Iím sure you willÖ tongue.gif

Just wondering what you do for a living? Or do you read a lot of journals?



#13    Seraphina

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 04:34 AM

I'm a biology student tongue.gif

Basically, what you studied was the live performance of inherited characteristics...I study the 'factory floor' on how they come about, and are passed on.

QUOTE
Correct me if Iím wrong, Iím sure you willÖ


Gladly wink2.gif But only because you asked so nicely...

QUOTE
So, the genes to control the future insect (or whatever) is held in the foot? Arm? Or does it hold it in the brain?


Every cell in the body of any living creature has the exact same chromosomes as the origonal zygote. The type of cell created is determined by a process that 'activates' genes within a cell, that essentially tell it whether or not to make a liver cell, a brain cell, a skin cell and so on and so forth. Every cell in your body contains these inbuilt traits that cause you to behave in whatever way, they're just only activated in certain centres of the brain. They're there to start with, your brain doesn't add to them.

The sex cells have nothing to do with the brain...unless you think there's a gland in your head producing sperm after loading it up with little tapes of all your life memories tongue.gif They're produced in the testes or ovaries, and contain only half the compliment of chromosomes (the other half being donated by the cell they'll join with to form the zygote).

The genes, except through random mutation that sometimes occurs during cell division (e.g. a mole is caused by mutated skin cells), the genetic information in the origonal zygote is not altered...memory can no more be passed on from parent to child than an amputed arm or a missing tooth you lost in a punch up.

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#14    soulfire78

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 04:55 AM

QUOTE
Memory is stored in the brain...not in the genes, not in the cells, and certainly not in prokaryotic cells, which didn't even have a nucliod. Organisms that do not have a brain (ie: single celled organisms) do not have memory (or consciousness for that matter). Nothing can be 'passed on'.


If this is completely 100% the case, then how do you explain medical reports of people born without brains?  The ones that have IQ's of over 120, that have attended college, and that otherwise live normal lives?  The article was posted in the Mind space and time forum.  Here's the link LInk  Do you have an explanation for this?  How were these people able to function at such a high level of education--to which memory would be necessary--if they possessed no brain?  Where would their memories be stored?

The truth is, the more we find out about nature, science, and specifically biology, the more we realize we know nothing.  We only see the pieces.

She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that 's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impair'd the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o'er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.

And on that cheek, and o'er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!

Lord Byron

#15    Kryso

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 05:00 AM

To state what does, or does not originate inside a new beings brain, is pure speculation, and individual interpretation (chromosomes, or not). Because correct me if Iím wrong, but no one can read the electric pulses of the neurons of the brain, and what they hold. (Unless biology has taken a huge step forward since we started this conversation?) So to say that a insect , or human, or anything living that was born, hasnít got information in their brains (upon birth) is impossible. The brain is one of the most complicated issues still unknown to man. For you to simply state this and that, is pure speculation.
Yes man knows all the names for the different sections of the cells that makes up every living being. But they are no closer to understanding every part those cells play!

And we can argue all night about both our personal interpretations. The only difference is I spent 4 years studying what I call my interpretation, that was taught to myself by numerous professors who excel in their fields. And I have earned the Dr. that comes before my name! With hard research, study and field experience. Which is slightly different from simply reading it from a book, or having a quick look at a site on the web about genes includes sequences, or being a biology STUDENT. (And I also studied biology as part of my course).

So how long have you been studying? And how long have you left?

And quite frankly, when you say study harder, (joke or not) I take offence at that. Maybe you should read more, or study harder. Or if you're stuck, put your hand up and ask the professor a question (not that you give professors much credit!) And I become even more incensed when I notice that Iím being lectured and told to study harder (after I have achieved become a Dr) by a 19 year old! In collage or not!

So you will excuse me but I donít want to get in trouble with the Moderators, because some teenager winds me up by quoting long paragraphs and using long words to impress me!





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