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Bin Laden


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#31    Rakshasas

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 05:00 PM

  wub.gif   Whoops...

Sorry...

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#32    gollum

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 05:21 PM

QUOTE
No offence but that thug you keep refering too massacred fourthousand Kurds while being an Ally of your country.Basically because he was needed by the states they overlooked what he was doing.It was ok as long as he fought Iran who at the time your goverment thought was a bigger threat.


Rakshasas

As sera just pointed out, i,m not from America and during the Gulf war of 91, there was no-one more surprised than myself, that we did not go a stage further and elimenate Mr. hussian and his Republican Army when we had the chance, but unfortunately the Commander in Chief was an AMERICAN, (STORMIN' NORMAN).

If you look at the top 10 US hit list of ROUGH STATES, yuo will note that Iran sit around the number 2 mark, they ARE a big threat to the stability of our small, fragile planet.

As for the atrocity that happened in Kurdistan, it goes without saying that it was a sick and cowardly act of a complete maniac, who deserves nothing but pain and suffering for the rest of his living and dead life.

As has been mentioned before, all of our countries make mistakes, and i've said it before we will bring that country round and turn it into an example to the rest of the middle east.


Incidently, we do have an uncanny nack of surviving in the wettest of weathers tongue.gif

thanx to sera for the esteemed bit, i do'nt think anyone has ever said a kinder thing to me. crying.gif  thumbsup.gif  

Edited by golam, 04 November 2003 - 05:34 PM.

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#33    Seraphina

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 06:53 PM

Okay, quick comment I need to insert in...for all of you supporting Bush as the leader of your great country...apparantly, this is his veiw on the french:

"The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur!"

...he's a scarily stupid guy, isn't he? huh.gif  

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#34    moe eubleck

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 08:26 PM

  laugh.gif  grin2.gif   No to go off topic but since the subject of Bush's stupididty was brought up here is one that makes me cry :

Bush waves at Stevie Wonder :
When Stevie Wonder sat down at the keyboard center stage, President Bush in the front row got very excited. He smiled and started waving at Wonder, who understandably did not respond.  
  
Gotta love that.  laugh.gif




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#35    Nancy

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:35 PM

QUOTE
Posted: Oct 30 2003, 06:42 PM   
Do you think US government should be blamed for 9/11 or do you think BIn Laiden is the devil of the demonish act. Or a patriot of Afgan?


Like Kismit, I've been tying my hands behind my back, doing my best to avoid this Thread. Quite akin to "Government Lies" the content of THIS thread has me seeing bright RED

As of this writing, there are approx. 33 Replies. Out of those, I find one example where UBL has been mentioned, and that was more or less, in passing.

Those who have dared to tread on this Thread have done nothing but "US" and "Bush Bash"........ Amazingly? 99.9% of those are from individuals who are not Americans (to the best of my knowledge) nor do the Profiles reflect United States Residency.

Immediately, the Topic Changed to Iraq, Saddam.... then onto Mexico. Seems this should be titled, "Terrorists Around The Globe."

For what it's worth... It is my opinion that UBL and his Band of Merry Maniacs are responsible for "9/11".........

I would love to come back here, to discuss the TOPIC listed. Anyone care to join me?     Just a thought         disgust.gif  disgust.gif  disgust.gif  

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#36    Kryso

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:34 AM

I once heard the expression when referring to WAR... war means -

We
Are
Right

Whoever gets involved in a conflict always presumes they are right (else why would they be there?)

I once read a report that since 1914, there has only been 12 executive days, when there hasn’t been a war or some type of conflict waging somewhere in the world.

I find that really sad! It’s summed up by the famous words, uttered by Jack Nicholson: “Can’t we just get along?”



#37    Seraphina

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 08:32 AM

QUOTE
Those who have dared to tread on this Thread have done nothing but "US" and "Bush Bash"........ Amazingly? 99.9% of those are from individuals who are not Americans (to the best of my knowledge) nor do the Profiles reflect United States Residency.


From the outside looking in, my friend tongue.gif Without, I might add, a veiw clouded by Americana dogma. I'm perfectly willing to accept the absolute idiocy of my own government as well, practically inviting terrorists into the country...Patriotism should never extend so far that you put up a sheild in front of your eyes to block out what your country is doing wrong.

QUOTE
For what it's worth... It is my opinion that UBL and his Band of Merry Maniacs are responsible for "9/11".........


While I think it's true that nobody could have predicted 9/11, and that it's something that wouldn't enter into the mind of any sane and rational person...the reason it happened was because of your government's insane backing of Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palistinians.

While it's true that 9/11 was the result of actions by an extremist (and downright loony) faction, you can't turn a blind eye to the fact that your government is supporting the murder of thousands of people in the middle east that led to it. Now, it's true the Palistine vs Israel front is a two way street as far as killing each other in concerned, but Israel is causing more than half the problems in the middle east right now, and the fact that your government keeps supporting them is insane. And it's what's going to lead to more and more attacks from loonies as things go on.

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#38    Kryso

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 5 2003, 01:32 AM)


While it's true that 9/11 was the result of actions by an extremist (and downright loony) faction, you can't turn a blind eye to the fact that your government is supporting the murder of thousands of people in the middle east that led to it. Now, it's true the Palistine vs Israel front is a two way street as far as killing each other in concerned, but Israel is causing more than half the problems in the middle east right now, and the fact that your government keeps supporting them is insane. And it's what's going to lead to more and more attacks from loonies as things go on.

This is so true, all the time you hear that Israel has blown up a building killing 40 people or so! Why? Because it’s a long religions and political debate that’s been raging for years. But as been said, what’s the difference between their leaders, and those of Iraq – answer, there friendly towards America, and for some reason America has a little agreement with them – for one, where do you think all there weapons comes from. I look at this as being hypocritical, on one hand your against terrorism, etcetera, on the other, your supply the weapons, and befriending those who use them against innocent people…  


#39    Seraphina

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:52 PM

The US is friendly towards Israel because they took land off Palistine to give to the Israelies in the first place...so no matter what this, ironically naziesque, new state decided to do, the US has to be seen to justify it to avoid losing face.

It scares me a little that they're actually more willing to support a cause that they know is wrong, than they to admit they're wrong...they consider themselves the world's watch dog in almost any other situation, why aren't they putting a leash of Israel?

It's crazy tongue.gif  

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#40    moe eubleck

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 5 2003, 02:52 PM)

.they consider themselves the world's watch dog in almost any other situation

   Politics are not my bread and butter but you are right. But do you think its Americas job to police the world? What gives us the right to invade other countries  and attempt to make them just like us?
     As this point we are turning our backs on other countries that really do need our help. It makes me think that we arent going to police the world.  Its just a really good justification to take what we want.  And after we have what we want, then what?

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#41    Rakshasas

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 03:24 AM

Nancy something for you to ponder.. http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp

NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 1998 —  At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a code name: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term that describes an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.    
  BEFORE YOU CLICK on my face and call me naive, let me concede some points. Yes, the West needed Josef Stalin to defeat Hitler. Yes, there were times during the Cold War when supporting one villain (Cambodia’s Lon Nol, for instance) would have been better than the alternative (Pol Pot). So yes, there are times when any nation must hold its nose and shake hands with the devil for the long-term good of the planet.
       But just as surely, there are times when the United States, faced with such moral dilemmas, should have resisted the temptation to act. Arming a multi-national coalition of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s - well after the destruction of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 - was one of those times.
       BIN LADEN’S BEGINNINGS
          


         As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.
       As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.
       What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.  

Taliban militiamen watch as one of their tanks light up an opposition position northeast of Kabul on Aug. 15.
  
       By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan’s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan’s freedom - like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals.
       Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.
       WHAT’S ‘INTELLIGENT’ ABOUT THIS?
       Though he has come to represent all that went wrong with the CIA’s reckless strategy there, by the end of the Afghan war in 1989, bin Laden was still viewed by the agency as something of a dilettante - a rich Saudi boy gone to war and welcomed home by the Saudi monarchy he so hated as something of a hero.
       In fact, while he returned to his family’s construction business, bin Laden had split from the relatively conventional MAK in 1988 and established a new group, al-Qaida, that included many of the more extreme MAK members he had met in Afghanistan.  
Exiled Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden is seen in this April, 1998 photo in Afghanistan.
          Most of these Afghan vets, or Afghanis, as the Arabs who fought there became known, turned up later behind violent Islamic movements around the world. Among them: the GIA in Algeria, thought responsible for the massacres of tens of thousands of civilians; Egypt’s Gamat Ismalia, which has massacred western tourists repeatedly in recent years; Saudi Arabia Shiite militants, responsible for the Khobar Towers and Riyadh bombings of 1996.
       Indeed, to this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.
       “Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,” he said.
       HINDSIGHT OR TUNNEL VISION
       It should be pointed out that the evidence of bin Laden’s connection to these activities is mostly classified, though its hard to imagine the CIA rushing to take credit for a Frankenstein’s monster like this.
       It is also worth acknowledging that it is easier now to oppose the CIA’s Afghan adventures than it was when Hatch and company made them in the mid-1980s. After all, in 1998 we now know that far larger elements than Afghanistan were corroding the communist party’s grip on power in Moscow.
       Even Hatch can’t be blamed completely. The CIA, ever mindful of the need to justify its “mission,” had conclusive evidence by the mid-1980s of the deepening crisis of infrastructure within the Soviet Union. The CIA, as its deputy director Robert Gates acknowledged under congressional questioning in 1992, had decided to keep that evidence from President Reagan and his top advisors and instead continued to grossly exaggerate Soviet military and technological capabilities in its annual “Soviet Military Power” report right up to 1990.
       Given that context, a decision was made to provide America’s potential enemies with the arms, money - and most importantly - the knowledge of how to run a war of attrition violent and well-organized enough to humble a superpower.
       That decision is coming home to roost.


  Now what bothers me the most about this is the C.I.A knew very early on that there was no need to continue its dealings with Bin..From public papers being released now they knew he was a screwy wing nut but still kept up with sending him weapons and teaching him how to use them

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#42    Kryso

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 03:32 AM

It’s mind boggling that America call Bin the number one emery, when they’re partly responsible for ‘making’ him into who he has become? ph34r.gif  blink.gif  


#43    Rakshasas

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 03:35 AM

   Bin in his own words... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh.../interview.html

... What is the meaning of your call for Muslims to take arms against America in particular, and what is the message that you wish to send to the West in general?

The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control. These are the reasons behind the singling out of America as a target. And not exempt of responsibility are those Western regimes whose presence in the region offers support to the American troops there. We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Jewish and Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...

  I think Americans should educate themselves more on everything their goverment does in the middle east and other countries.

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#44    Nancy

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 01:43 AM

Rakshasas... Thank you for the LINK and your comments. I just finished reading the information you provided concerning the 1998 Interview with bin Laden.
I chose to include the following, right below what you included in your last post.

Believe me, I am not justifying US errors in the past. I am not forgiving what the CIA/US did in prior years. However, at the time that was happening, I was not privy to the information, even if I were? Nothing I could have done to correct it.

Below, I have placed in RED, certain statements by bin Laden.

Can anyone here, please explain to me HOW his 'reasoning' applies to what he made certain happened on September 11, 2001?

What did those people do to oppress, rob?
If his terrorism is directed at tyrants, agressors and enemies of Allah, can you explain NYC? The Pentagon and PA?

These were totally innocent men, women and children!

bin Laden and those of his ilk have no respect for life..... PERIOD. Punishing innocents to punish their governments is not acceptable.

I still contend the US has no choice but to eliminate, to the best of our ability, those factions who are of this mind set...... It will take decades.
Nancy


QUOTE
Many of the Arabic as well as the Western mass media accuse you of terrorism and of supporting terrorism. What do you have to say to that?

There is an Arabic proverb that says "she accused me of having her malady, then snuck away." Besides, terrorism can be commendable and it can be reprehensible. Terrifying an innocent person and terrorizing him is objectionable and unjust, also unjustly terrorizing people is not right.
 
Whereas, terrorizing oppressors and criminals and thieves and robbers is necessary for the safety of people and for the protection of their property. There is no doubt in this. Every state and every civilization and culture has to resort to terrorism under certain circumstances for the purpose of abolishing tyranny and corruption. Every country in the world has its own security system and its own security forces, its own police and its own army. They are all designed to terrorize whoever even contemplates to attack that country or its citizens. The terrorism we practice is of the commendable kind for it is directed at the tyrants and the aggressors and the enemies of Allah, the tyrants, the traitors who commit acts of treason against their own countries and their own faith and their own prophet and their own nation. Terrorizing those and punishing them are necessary measures to straighten things and to make them right. Tyrants and oppressors who subject the Arab nation to aggression ought to be punished. The wrongs and the crimes committed against the Muslim nation are far greater than can be covered by this interview. America heads the list of aggressors against Muslims. The recurrence of aggression against Muslims everywhere is proof enough. For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed. And the strange thing is that any act on their part to avenge themselves or to lift the injustice befalling them causes great agitation in the United Nations which hastens to call for an emergency meeting only to convict the victim and to censure the wronged and the tyrannized whose children have been killed and whose crops have been destroyed and whose farms have been pulverized. ...
In today's wars, there are no morals, and it is clear that mankind has descended to the lowest degrees of decadence and oppression. They rip us of our wealth and of our resources and of our oil. Our religion is under attack. They kill and murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists. This is compounded injustice. And the United Nations insistence to convict the victims and support the aggressors constitutes a serious precedence which shows the extent of injustice that has been allowed to take root in this land. ...




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#45    Rakshasas

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 03:58 PM

Nancy

I do believe that the American public really has no idea and i can take each of your statements and answer them for you.

QUOTE
Can anyone here, please explain to me HOW his 'reasoning' applies to what he made certain happened on September 11, 2001?

What did those people do to oppress, rob?
If his terrorism is directed at tyrants, agressors and enemies of Allah, can you explain NYC? The Pentagon and PA?


First of all I think every American should read a bit of history about the middle east.Currently your tax dollars go to help finance and fund Isreal and its oppression of the Palestinians.Theres something like Fourty resolutions pertaining to this situation that both parties have voted against.Simple things like gaurenteeing medicine for palestinians.Every time the U.N tries to condemn Isreal for its actions in the west bank its voted down by the United States.Includeing the same things your country accuses Saddam of doing.Isreal is just as guilty for slaughtering innocent muslims as Saddam was of the Kurds.Now think about it.
If your country was over run by Muslims,who were being supported by an outside country and you had to live in the conditions of the palestinians wouldn`t your hatred extend to that country too?? They are partly in fault for the pain and suffering your endureing.As a democratic country you vote in the goverments whose actions are hurting them.


QUOTE
bin Laden and those of his ilk have no respect for life..... PERIOD. Punishing innocents to punish their governments is not acceptable.


  As far as I`m concerned this is a Pot calling the kettle black statement.
Now going into a country like Afghanistan bombing innocent people who have nothing to do with the actions of their goverment or of terrorist actions is going to make Muslims not hate Americans how??
If you kill the parent of a Muslim child by accident do you think they are going to thank you for it??

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