Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Hackers revisited...


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
65 replies to this topic

#1    saxcatz

saxcatz

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 227 posts
  • Joined:22 Oct 2003
  • Location:Southern Arizona

  • There are only 10 kinds of people:
    Those who understand binary
    and those who don't!

Posted 03 November 2003 - 06:18 PM

I wished to revisit this subject in a civilized and direct manner; as I am curious as to the input of individuals on these forums.
Dollars... yen... pounds... euros... whatever currency you trade in, hackers cost millions, perhaps even billions, per year.  Today's high-tech buisness market relies on the speed with which computers and the internet allow the transfer of data.  Perhaps they rely on it too much, as they find out "WHEN HACKERS ATTACK" (sorry, couldn't resist whistling2.gif) and they have no way in which to conduct thier buiness.  To a corporation as large as Microsoft of McDonalds, or even Amazon or Ebay, a single day on the down can mean several million dollars of lost profits (especially for those that operate solely online)... multiply that by the number of corporations affected, and the results can be tremendous!
As a programmer, I speak with "wanna-be" hackers on a daily basis... but not a one of them I know would venture to truly cause destruction... As a matter of fact, none have ever mentioned of truly hacking into any system, personal or otherwise.  Most hackers are more interested in learning about the systems, wether it be in the hopes of creating a empire of thier own or simply by creating a system for thier own personal enjoyment.
Saying that malicious hacking is a product of boredom is like saying that murder is a product of malnutrition.  Bad parenting, shady morals, or good, ol' fashioned destructive tendancies are the causes of malicious hacking.  There are plenty of other challenges that the PC presents.  If you are a board young prodigy, try creating the next hit PC game... or maybe put Microsoft out to pasture with a superior OS or a wonderful and affordable office suite.  Sure... these are VERY lofty ambitions... and that's the point, these are much higher and more fulfilling ambitions than hacking into Ebay and changing every other word  of text to "boob."  Don't want to set your sites so high?  You skills could always allow you to make a nice bit of extra cash setting up wireless networks for private individuals and small buisnesses; or spend your day creating groovy flash animations for NewGrounds.  Not that ambitious?  Well, you probably shouldn't try hacking anyway... but if you still need a deterrant; why don't you just spend all day creating "nude patches" for GTA or Tomb Raider?  Not that tech saavy?  There's ALWAYS porn and message boards... take your pick, I prefer the latter. grin2.gif
My point is; there are lots of equally entertaining, accessible, and profitable diversions other than malicious hacking.  Destructive hacking is brought on by the same teenage angst that causes vandalism and non-social drug and alchohol abuse... it is a lack of parenting and good social exposure that leaves teens without a proper outlet for thier frustrations.  Parents spend too much time worrying about Johnny's grades and NOT enough time worrying about Johnny's emotional state.  They never tried to teach Johnny what to do when his girlfriend says "so long", what to do when the world throws you a curveball.
Parents... TEACH YOUR CHILDREN HOW TO CONSTRUCTIVELY DEAL WITH THIER ANGER AND FRUSTRATION!  It will allow your children to live happier, healthier, and more successful lives as well as cause you ALOT less trouble in the long run!
thumbsup.gif  

***************************************************
The Saxfiend (AKA "SaxCatz")
saxcatz@hotmail.com
Saxophonist and Software Engineer (AKA "Code Jockey")
"What do you mean IF these walls could talk?"
***************************************************

#2    Seraphina

Seraphina

    Voted Best Member 2005

  • Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Joined:10 Sep 2003
  • Location:Paisley, Scotland

  • Everyone likes a smouldering and sexy glare from a diminutive scientist.

Posted 03 November 2003 - 08:47 PM

Well, I’d give my opinion again…but I’m pretty sure it’s been pretty well documented wink2.gif So I’ll just reiterate that I think hackers are scum, who shouldn’t be allowed to have a computer, let alone the internet, and leave it at that.

Should they be punished? Yes, next question.

If you want the full argument…and I do mean ‘argument’…then it’s all in the other thread.

Posted Image

Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#3    TheLight

TheLight

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 142 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2003

Posted 03 November 2003 - 09:20 PM

So the point you're making is that hackers shouldn't waste their brains on topics like computer security but work on motivating projects like for example a word processor or something like excel. Put yourself in the head of the teenager, or remember when you were one, what was the thing that excites all teenagers ? If I remember well, it's being cool, a concept that people generally loose when they grow up. But for teenagers, writing a text processor is not "cool", hacking in a computer is cool. Listening to Mozart is not cool, listening to the latest rap hit is cool. So basically teenagers and adult live in two different worlds, conceptions are completely different.

To the question: should they be punished. Of course yes but in proportion to the consequences of their acts and their age. I can hardly imagine to hold a kid responsible on the same level as an adult because by nature kids are not as reponsible as adults (otherwise we would let them drive cars at 10 wink2.gif).

It's always the same question and internet and hackers are just one side of it. For example if a 12 years old kid shots another one with his father gun, who is guilty ? The kid for stealing the gun and using it ? The father for not securing the access to the gun enough ? The society that lets people have guns so easily ?

In computers it's similar. Who is responsible for the loss of money ? The kid for hacking a server ? The server owner for not taking sufficient measures for protecting its server ? The parents for not monitoring their kid ?

In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible. But then who is responsible ?  


#4    dust19

dust19

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 639 posts
  • Joined:13 Feb 2003

Posted 03 November 2003 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (TheLight @ Nov 3 2003, 04:20 PM)
In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible.

Whoah now! I have to chime in on this one. So you are saying if one isn't "mature" enough to be "responsible", they should be absolutely no repercussions for their actions? I think this line of reasoning is horribly skewed and you should really think long and hard about what your saying. When I was a teenager, I was VERY aware of my actions and whether or not they were wrong. You could get away with using that line of reasoning to defend a 6 year old, but I think it stops there.


#5    thepsychoticseaotter

thepsychoticseaotter

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 963 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2003
  • Location:Missouri

  • Ice, Snow, Blood and Iron!!!

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:32 AM

QUOTE (dust19 @ Nov 3 2003, 03:27 PM)
QUOTE (TheLight @ Nov 3 2003, 04:20 PM)
In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible.

Whoah now! I have to chime in on this one. So you are saying if one isn't "mature" enough to be "responsible", they should be absolutely no repercussions for their actions? I think this line of reasoning is horribly skewed and you should really think long and hard about what your saying. When I was a teenager, I was VERY aware of my actions and whether or not they were wrong. You could get away with using that line of reasoning to defend a 6 year old, but I think it stops there.

To expand on it it's like a kids killing his brothers and sisters in cold blood then whoever claiming he was misunderstood...He should fry nomatterwhat.

Ravens KeepA forum for Classic D&D, AD&D and the upcoming Castles and Crusades.

Soon it's over, all the dwarfs defeated
The silence of the caverns stand still
Orcs took the command of the caves and depths
The darklord has reached his will ---Battlelore

Fill my mug, I just want to forget
All the troubles and fighting
And the ghosts in my head --Battlelore

#6    Nancy

Nancy

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts
  • Joined:07 Mar 2001
  • Location:South Florida

Posted 04 November 2003 - 03:03 AM

saxcatz? dust? Mr. Otter? Seraphina?
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!  Standing ovation here....... Well Done! Well Said!!!!!


dying is easy ... tis the living that's hard...

#7    Kryso

Kryso

    Always watching...

  • Member
  • 3,943 posts
  • Joined:21 Sep 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

  • Truth titillates the imagination far less than fiction.

Posted 04 November 2003 - 04:36 AM

I’m Simply repeating what I said in the last thread about this subject, here goes, lol. tongue.gif

The other day a hacker was acquitted because his lawyer claimed a Trojan Virus was placed onto his clients computer by ANOTHER hacker. But even though the law can prove where the hack was preformed from, they cannot prove who was sat at the keyboard at the time, or whether it was in fact caused by another hacker hacking the hackers computer (confusing I know, lol) So this has set a new president. Now hackers have a legal loophole with which to escape punishment for something they have done.  wacko.gif



#8    TheLight

TheLight

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 142 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2003

Posted 04 November 2003 - 07:44 AM

About the Trojan  Horse: Imagine a hacker sets up a Trojan Horse in your computers and hacks into many places using your computer as a getaway. Now imagine that the FBI traces the attacks back to your computer. Then you'll be happy to find an attorney to defend yourself and explain that it wasn't your fault. See it's not because people are charged that they're guilty, that's why there are courts of law.

About kids not being responsible: What I'm saying is that they can't be held responsible on the same level as adults, that is the punishment must be much lighter.

Talking about responsability, if someone with a mental handicap murders someone else, what should be his sentence ? Electric chair or mental hospital ? I would say mental hospital if he's not fully aware of his doings, the punishment only makes if the person understands he did something wrong. And I think it's good that the law generally agrees with that in evolved countries (ok may be perhaps excepted in Texas from what I've heared but well I'm not going to comment on Texas).

TheLight


#9    Seraphina

Seraphina

    Voted Best Member 2005

  • Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Joined:10 Sep 2003
  • Location:Paisley, Scotland

  • Everyone likes a smouldering and sexy glare from a diminutive scientist.

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:15 AM

Is this the correct time to point out that children are not insane? tongue.gif Nor, for that matter, are they stupid...which is what the opinion that 'they're not responsible', levied by extremely patronising adults, manages very well to imply.

The kids who are actually out there hacking (most of the ones I've encountered range from 15-19) are quite able to understand the concept of right and wrong, and are also able to understand that people are being hurt as a result of their actions...they simply don't care. What age do you think the people making all these killer viruses are, seven!? rolleyes.gif




Posted Image

Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#10    Kryso

Kryso

    Always watching...

  • Member
  • 3,943 posts
  • Joined:21 Sep 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

  • Truth titillates the imagination far less than fiction.

Posted 04 November 2003 - 04:37 PM

QUOTE (TheLight @ Nov 4 2003, 12:44 AM)
About kids not being responsible: What I'm saying is that they can't be held responsible on the same level as adults, that is the punishment must be much lighter.


So, these ‘young’ kids, who have the ability to bypass complicated multitasking computer software that protects programs from military installations to oil companies and banks (just to name a few). You believe they have the ability and intelligence to get around military encrypted programs, and insert their own, which causes devastation, that these, amazingly gifted young ninos, shouldn’t be prosecuted along with adults, when as its stated they are of legal age to be prosecuted?
Well I for one am 30 and know my way around almost any computer, but I haven’t the ability to comprehended how to bypass complicated programs. I think you not giving these ‘children’ enough credit for the abilities and intelligence they hold, and have the power to cause alot of trouble, considering almost everything is patched through computers.
I wonder if you will feel the same way after one of these precious little ‘children’ hack into the bank where your money is ‘safely’ held, and wipes your banking details of the computer. Or puts your address onto a dept collecting agencies computer, and have you furniture removed in front of all your neighbours. Or puts a tag on your car, and the police pull you over for unpaid tickets (which have all been done by hackers). Lets see you smile and pat the wonderful little ninos on the head after you have personally been a victim of them!
If they have the intelligence to commit the crime, then they should be treated with the same manner as one would treat any other crime. (Don’t get me wrong, this sort of crime is pure adrenaline junkies, that know exactly what they are doing,) not all crime is so black and white as this!



#11    TheLight

TheLight

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 142 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2003

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:31 PM

Kryso,

it's funny you ask me this question because I asked it to myself  before posting my mail. I would be really pissed off if such a situation happened to me but I would stick to my principles, lighter punishment than for an adult (which doesn't mean no punishment). Being skilled and knowledgeable doesn't mean that you have the maturity to go along with it. I'm saying that about kids and suddenly I realize that it would apply perfectly well to military and their powerful weapons too.
But well I guess it's easier for people to focus on a kid than on a powerful institution...

TheLight


#12    Nancy

Nancy

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts
  • Joined:07 Mar 2001
  • Location:South Florida

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:17 PM

Kryso? I applaud your efforts.......  However? I think you're beating your head against a wall.

One of the comments I found interesting in this thread was a reference to "anti-virus" Companies....... Those who produce the Software to fight the digusting, never-ending battle against this crud that has invaded the Internet...... would have nothing to produce, if "hackers" ceased their dirty work.

Argggggggg..!!  Makes me want to scream!
N...  

dying is easy ... tis the living that's hard...

#13    Blood Angel

Blood Angel

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,389 posts
  • Joined:24 Jul 2003
  • Location:.:: Classified Top Secret ::.

  • Deus Ex Conspiratio

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:26 PM

Again you use hacker as a generic term, Say that in 1 million hackers and cracker 5 are stupid enough to get caught, the public starts to get annoyed with computer savvy people, it doesn't matter whether they are good or bad they still get a blasting, The hackers gets pissed off because they spend all of their free time making YOU safe, from the crackers. The hackers are what make your firewalls, your antivirus software, your trojan horse detecters, they fix bugs in your software, so that crackers can't get the handhold, while they are busy making YOU safe, they are getting flamed but millions of user worldwide becuase of crackers who are intent on harming, do they get credit? NO. How about giving the hackers that do a good job in keeping YOU safe a round of applause for their efforts? I'm not saying praise the crackers, but praise hackers that do good, they are like the "police" force of the internet, but go relatively unnoticed by normal users. I myself find it frustrating everytime i mention myself as a hacker, to be blasted left right and centre because of something else someone else is doing. Don't hate the many because of a few. You can call me whatever you like.

Fight Win Prevail - me
No guts No Glory - me
Cadjole....i like that word, so much more sophisticated than bludgeon.
Vicious says: You are saying impudence to me! That is impudence!!!1

#14    Nancy

Nancy

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts
  • Joined:07 Mar 2001
  • Location:South Florida

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:49 PM

Blood Angel:
For your information, I found the following in Merriam Webster:

QUOTE
Main Entry: hack·er
Pronunciation: 'ha-k&r
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : one that hacks
2 : a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity <a tennis hacker>
3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer
4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy


Please NOTE reference to #3 above, which appears to meet your definition.

I also looked up "cracker"........ I found 8 subjects:
Cracker
Animal Cracker
Catalytic Cracker
Cracker Jack
Cracker-barrel
Graham Cracker
Oyster Cracker
Soda Cracker

Just to make sure I didn't overlook anything, here is the 'generic' definition of 'cracker.'
QUOTE
Main Entry: crack·er
Pronunciation: 'kra-k&r
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : chiefly dialect : a bragging liar : BOASTER
2 : something that makes a cracking or snapping noise: as a : FIRECRACKER b : the snapping end of a whiplash : SNAPPER c : a paper holder for a party favor that pops when the ends are pulled sharply
3 : plural : NUTCRACKER
4 : a dry thin crispy baked bread product that may be leavened or unleavened
5 a : usually disparaging : a poor usually Southern white b : capitalized : a native or resident of Florida or Georgia — used as a nickname
6 : the equipment in which cracking (as of petroleum) is carried out
© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy


The whole point of my boring and excessively long Reply is to advise that the "general public" is not familiar with "cracker." I suggest you direct your efforts to educate the public, so computer dummies will realize the world has changed.
N.   disgust.gif  

dying is easy ... tis the living that's hard...

#15    FreyKade

FreyKade

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,416 posts
  • Joined:31 Jan 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:54 PM

nope nancey, i believe what blood angel said...is true

"isn't that intresting Dave, i mean every step you take down that chain, takes you one step further from your imagination"

i said
"you're right! youre a bit of a hippy, but you're right"
- Dave Gorman

"Wanna buy some pegs Dave?"
"I got some pegs belonging to you"
- Papa Lazarou




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users