65 replies to this topic

[saxcatz]

I wished to revisit this subject in a civilized and direct manner; as I am curious as to the input of individuals on these forums.
Dollars... yen... pounds... euros... whatever currency you trade in, hackers cost millions, perhaps even billions, per year.  Today's high-tech buisness market relies on the speed with which computers and the internet allow the transfer of data.  Perhaps they rely on it too much, as they find out "WHEN HACKERS ATTACK" (sorry, couldn't resist ) and they have no way in which to conduct thier buiness.  To a corporation as large as Microsoft of McDonalds, or even Amazon or Ebay, a single day on the down can mean several million dollars of lost profits (especially for those that operate solely online)... multiply that by the number of corporations affected, and the results can be tremendous!
As a programmer, I speak with "wanna-be" hackers on a daily basis... but not a one of them I know would venture to truly cause destruction... As a matter of fact, none have ever mentioned of truly hacking into any system, personal or otherwise.  Most hackers are more interested in learning about the systems, wether it be in the hopes of creating a empire of thier own or simply by creating a system for thier own personal enjoyment.
Saying that malicious hacking is a product of boredom is like saying that murder is a product of malnutrition.  Bad parenting, shady morals, or good, ol' fashioned destructive tendancies are the causes of malicious hacking.  There are plenty of other challenges that the PC presents.  If you are a board young prodigy, try creating the next hit PC game... or maybe put Microsoft out to pasture with a superior OS or a wonderful and affordable office suite.  Sure... these are VERY lofty ambitions... and that's the point, these are much higher and more fulfilling ambitions than hacking into Ebay and changing every other word  of text to "boob."  Don't want to set your sites so high?  You skills could always allow you to make a nice bit of extra cash setting up wireless networks for private individuals and small buisnesses; or spend your day creating groovy flash animations for NewGrounds.  Not that ambitious?  Well, you probably shouldn't try hacking anyway... but if you still need a deterrant; why don't you just spend all day creating "nude patches" for GTA or Tomb Raider?  Not that tech saavy?  There's ALWAYS porn and message boards... take your pick, I prefer the latter.
My point is; there are lots of equally entertaining, accessible, and profitable diversions other than malicious hacking.  Destructive hacking is brought on by the same teenage angst that causes vandalism and non-social drug and alchohol abuse... it is a lack of parenting and good social exposure that leaves teens without a proper outlet for thier frustrations.  Parents spend too much time worrying about Johnny's grades and NOT enough time worrying about Johnny's emotional state.  They never tried to teach Johnny what to do when his girlfriend says "so long", what to do when the world throws you a curveball.
Parents... TEACH YOUR CHILDREN HOW TO CONSTRUCTIVELY DEAL WITH THIER ANGER AND FRUSTRATION!  It will allow your children to live happier, healthier, and more successful lives as well as cause you ALOT less trouble in the long run!
  

[Seraphina]

Well, I’d give my opinion again…but I’m pretty sure it’s been pretty well documented So I’ll just reiterate that I think hackers are scum, who shouldn’t be allowed to have a computer, let alone the internet, and leave it at that.

Should they be punished? Yes, next question.

If you want the full argument…and I do mean ‘argument’…then it’s all in the other thread.

[TheLight]

So the point you're making is that hackers shouldn't waste their brains on topics like computer security but work on motivating projects like for example a word processor or something like excel. Put yourself in the head of the teenager, or remember when you were one, what was the thing that excites all teenagers ? If I remember well, it's being cool, a concept that people generally loose when they grow up. But for teenagers, writing a text processor is not "cool", hacking in a computer is cool. Listening to Mozart is not cool, listening to the latest rap hit is cool. So basically teenagers and adult live in two different worlds, conceptions are completely different.

To the question: should they be punished. Of course yes but in proportion to the consequences of their acts and their age. I can hardly imagine to hold a kid responsible on the same level as an adult because by nature kids are not as reponsible as adults (otherwise we would let them drive cars at 10 ).

It's always the same question and internet and hackers are just one side of it. For example if a 12 years old kid shots another one with his father gun, who is guilty ? The kid for stealing the gun and using it ? The father for not securing the access to the gun enough ? The society that lets people have guns so easily ?

In computers it's similar. Who is responsible for the loss of money ? The kid for hacking a server ? The server owner for not taking sufficient measures for protecting its server ? The parents for not monitoring their kid ?

In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible. But then who is responsible ?  

[dust19]

[thepsychoticseaotter]

[Nancy]

saxcatz? dust? Mr. Otter? Seraphina?
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!  Standing ovation here....... Well Done! Well Said!!!!!

[Kryso]

I’m Simply repeating what I said in the last thread about this subject, here goes, lol.

The other day a hacker was acquitted because his lawyer claimed a Trojan Virus was placed onto his clients computer by ANOTHER hacker. But even though the law can prove where the hack was preformed from, they cannot prove who was sat at the keyboard at the time, or whether it was in fact caused by another hacker hacking the hackers computer (confusing I know, lol) So this has set a new president. Now hackers have a legal loophole with which to escape punishment for something they have done.  

[TheLight]

About the Trojan  Horse: Imagine a hacker sets up a Trojan Horse in your computers and hacks into many places using your computer as a getaway. Now imagine that the FBI traces the attacks back to your computer. Then you'll be happy to find an attorney to defend yourself and explain that it wasn't your fault. See it's not because people are charged that they're guilty, that's why there are courts of law.

About kids not being responsible: What I'm saying is that they can't be held responsible on the same level as adults, that is the punishment must be much lighter.

Talking about responsability, if someone with a mental handicap murders someone else, what should be his sentence ? Electric chair or mental hospital ? I would say mental hospital if he's not fully aware of his doings, the punishment only makes if the person understands he did something wrong. And I think it's good that the law generally agrees with that in evolved countries (ok may be perhaps excepted in Texas from what I've heared but well I'm not going to comment on Texas).

TheLight

[Seraphina]

Is this the correct time to point out that children are not insane? Nor, for that matter, are they stupid...which is what the opinion that 'they're not responsible', levied by extremely patronising adults, manages very well to imply.

The kids who are actually out there hacking (most of the ones I've encountered range from 15-19) are quite able to understand the concept of right and wrong, and are also able to understand that people are being hurt as a result of their actions...they simply don't care. What age do you think the people making all these killer viruses are, seven!?

[Kryso]

[TheLight]

Kryso,

it's funny you ask me this question because I asked it to myself  before posting my mail. I would be really pissed off if such a situation happened to me but I would stick to my principles, lighter punishment than for an adult (which doesn't mean no punishment). Being skilled and knowledgeable doesn't mean that you have the maturity to go along with it. I'm saying that about kids and suddenly I realize that it would apply perfectly well to military and their powerful weapons too.
But well I guess it's easier for people to focus on a kid than on a powerful institution...

TheLight

[Nancy]

Kryso? I applaud your efforts.......  However? I think you're beating your head against a wall.

One of the comments I found interesting in this thread was a reference to "anti-virus" Companies....... Those who produce the Software to fight the digusting, never-ending battle against this crud that has invaded the Internet...... would have nothing to produce, if "hackers" ceased their dirty work.

Argggggggg..!!  Makes me want to scream!
N...  

[Blood Angel]

Again you use hacker as a generic term, Say that in 1 million hackers and cracker 5 are stupid enough to get caught, the public starts to get annoyed with computer savvy people, it doesn't matter whether they are good or bad they still get a blasting, The hackers gets pissed off because they spend all of their free time making YOU safe, from the crackers. The hackers are what make your firewalls, your antivirus software, your trojan horse detecters, they fix bugs in your software, so that crackers can't get the handhold, while they are busy making YOU safe, they are getting flamed but millions of user worldwide becuase of crackers who are intent on harming, do they get credit? NO. How about giving the hackers that do a good job in keeping YOU safe a round of applause for their efforts? I'm not saying praise the crackers, but praise hackers that do good, they are like the "police" force of the internet, but go relatively unnoticed by normal users. I myself find it frustrating everytime i mention myself as a hacker, to be blasted left right and centre because of something else someone else is doing. Don't hate the many because of a few. You can call me whatever you like.

[Nancy]

Blood Angel:
For your information, I found the following in Merriam Webster:

[FreyKade]

nope nancey, i believe what blood angel said...is true