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Where did Lucifer fall?


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#1    darkninja

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 07:30 PM

I was wondering if anyone has any info on this. I remember reading somewhere that the spot where Lucifer hit the ground when he fell from the heavens is one of the most cursed spots in the world. Although I know Lucifer's fall from heaven is more literal than actual (meaning he fell from the ways and will of God), I read this somewhere and couldn't find anything on the internet or the UM forums about this. Just wondering if anyone had any info or ideas.

Also, I wasn't really sure where to post this, so I decided to post here.



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#2    draconic chronicler

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 08:06 PM

I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed.  There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament.  This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated.  This has been discussed at length here on UM several times.  The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon.  There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits.  It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.


#3    Wookie McFly

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 08:19 PM

Regardless of whether or not it is contained in the OT or NT (which can be debated forever and a day based on alternate translations, views of the time, etc etc etc), it is an accepted part of faith and dogma in the modern church.

I doubt that there are really places which are tremendously cursed, but I might say the field of armageddon (I'll have to look up the precise original spelling) in Palestine... that's where we get the term Armageddon and has been the site of more battles (and death) than any other place on earth (that we know of)... Everyone from Alexander to Napoleon fought there.

Just an idea.  Plus it fits nicely with Revelations and various other apocolyptic texts.


#4    Heru

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 11:35 PM

Quote


Regardless of whether or not it is contained in the OT or NT (which can be debated forever and a day based on alternate translations, views of the time, etc etc etc), it is an accepted part of faith and dogma in the modern church.

I doubt that there are really places which are tremendously cursed, but I might say the field of armageddon (I'll have to look up the precise original spelling) in Palestine... that's where we get the term Armageddon and has been the site of more battles (and death) than any other place on earth (that we know of)... Everyone from Alexander to Napoleon fought there.

Just an idea.  Plus it fits nicely with Revelations and various other apocolyptic texts.


Huh? It cant be "debated forever and a day". Its a misstranslation. Christianitys facts are from the bible. And the fact is, it refers to a babylonian king and the translation was suppose to be day star. Or Venus. Sometimes venus appears at day but its glory(just as the kings) pales in comparison to the suns glory(as in God). And it was talking about god casting down the king. Isreals opresser.

Now Satan started from Job which was a accusing angel or literaly it meant adversary. Everyone whose against you is satan.

The falling angels bit came from the book of Enoch (only book that mentions such a thing).
Judaism and the council of Nicea both rejected it.

Anyways.

There is no one named Lucifer, its just venus. The day or morning star. Its actualy a planet though.


#5    Raptor Witness

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:28 AM

Tunguska - June 30, 1908


user posted image

When powerful beings enter our atmosphere, they do not leave a crater on earth, rather, they arrive like this ...

"For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be."Matt. 24:27


The Russians collected a number of accounts from eyewitnesses at the trading station, which was probably the closest permanent habitation. These included:[Link]

user posted image
Witness #1

"I was sitting on the porch of the house at the trading station, looking north. Suddenly in the north...the sky was split in two, and high above the forest the whole northern part of the sky appeared covered with fire. I felt a great heat, as if my shirt had caught fire... At that moment there was a bang in the sky, and a mighty crash... I was thrown twenty feet from the porch and lost consciousness for a moment.... The crash was followed by a noise like stones falling from the sky, or guns firing. The earth trembled.... At the moment when the sky opened, a hot wind, as if from a cannon, blew past the huts from the north. It damaged the onion plants. Later, we found that many panes in the windows had been blown out and the iron hasp in the barn door had been broken."

A second witness said:

"I saw the sky in the north open to the ground and fire poured out. The fire was brighter than the sun. We were terrified, but the sky closed again and immediately afterward, bangs like gunshots were heard. We thought stones were falling... I ran with my head down and covered, because I was afraid stones may fall on it."

Note:

This marked the beginning of the increase in knowledge and rapid human transit on the earth, predicted by the prophet [Daniel 12:4,] for within days Wilbur Wright made his first official public demonstration of manned flight on August 8, 1908, at the race track of Le Mans, France. [Link]

The Devil arrived just in time to witness this important event ... [attachmentid=28577]

The Mystery of Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots had been accomplished. [Rev. 17:5]

Attached Files


Edited by Raptor Witness, 28 September 2006 - 05:10 AM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#6    fallingalien

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:34 AM

Quote


I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed.  There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament.  This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated.  This has been discussed at length here on UM several times.  The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon.  There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits.  It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.


and are you a professional historian? I don't think so. the Bible must be right somehow because there's alot of powerful Christians out there (I mean spiritually) All that's important is that you would do was Jesus would, Christian means Christ like and that's mostly important.

if satan didn't exist, who was the leader of the music in heaven? and the most good looking angel? it's all in the Bible, did you ever even read the Bible? because, compared to my knowledge you can't be right, no offense.  thumbsup.gif

Edited by fallingalien, 28 September 2006 - 04:36 AM.

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#7    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:12 AM

A fallen angel doesn't literally 'fall'. The 'fall' is the fall from grace with God. However, angels have thrones in the Heavens (stars) and when they fall they are cast off their thrones and no place is thenceforth found for them (unless they find salvation, and yes fallen angels CAN get back into Heaven, Satanail is one of them) so they can still go up to Heaven but eventually they fall back to where they are cast down to. That is usually Earth.


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#8    AtlantisRises

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 10:38 AM

I have no idea how knowledgeable Draconic Chronicler is of the bible but i am pretty sure he is right.

For certainty however i suggest you ask Mako who IS a professional historian.

I am pretty sure he will give a similar answer.

And i do recall DC mentioning a book he is writing. so perhaps he IS a professinal Historian



And as for the Tungaska event. That was either a meteor or a comet.

I mean sure the UFO theory is OK but the falling demon/angel theory is just silly.

EDIT FOR TYPOS

Edited by AtlantisRises, 28 September 2006 - 10:44 AM.

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#9    seanph

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:07 PM

Lucifer never fell from anywhere.  This term is used only once in the Bible and it is in reference to a Babylonian king.  There was no "fall".  This is a misnomer.

John J. Robinson A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and--ironically--the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."


Here’s a brief synopsis of The Origins of Satan by Professor Elaine Pagels (Princeton University):

“Pagels charts the evolution of the Jewish and Christian concept of evil from Old Testament times to the present day (although the majority of the book deals with the New Testament era). She explains how ' Satan ' didn't always refer to an evil being but was initially used to represent an obstacle. After that meaning, it evolved into a meaning which was used to unify your group against your enemies/adversaries or 'satan'. The Jews still don't, nor did they ever, believe in or create the Satan/Devil being/creature/character of Christian lore.

It wasn't until New Testament times and later that the concept of an evil being who is actually called 'Satan' or the 'Devil' or ' Lucifer ' evolved. It is interesting to see how these concepts have continued to persist throughout religious and political history with groups stigmatizing others not in their group (whether it be religious, political, racial, etc.) as being 'of the devil'. Dictatorships and other authoritarian organizations always need an external enemy to bind their followers together.”


The Origins of Satan
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067973118...TF8&s=books

Kindly,

Sean

Edited by seanph, 28 September 2006 - 03:09 PM.

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#10    raider91

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 04:08 AM

There are fallen angels in the bible,and it talks about God casting down Satan to the Earth after Satan thought he was too wise and tried to BE God ,Ezekiel 28:16-18

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#11    starlitkate

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 04:24 AM

Quote


I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed.  There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament.  This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated.  This has been discussed at length here on UM several times.  The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon.  There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits.  It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.


And how do you know this?? Isn't there a such thing as not calling other's religions false and such??  Try this with Wiccan or something else and see what is said back to ya!!   thumbsup.gif   You can't say for sure that Lucifer isn't real!! You don't know that. But those that do believe, believe in him & God and they're beautiful loving faith is what carries them.

Quote


I have no idea how knowledgeable Draconic Chronicler is of the bible but i am pretty sure he is right.

For certainty however i suggest you ask Mako who IS a professional historian.

I am pretty sure he will give a similar answer.

And i do recall DC mentioning a book he is writing. so perhaps he IS a professinal Historian
And as for the Tungaska event. That was either a meteor or a comet.

I mean sure the UFO theory is OK but the falling demon/angel theory is just silly.

EDIT FOR TYPOS

Mako is a intelligent guy but yet he is also wise in his words of choosing if you get my point. I would suggest they ask someone that has an open mind and is accepting of everyone and they're beliefs then they will be given a true open understanding!!   thumbsup.gif


But yes--when Lucifer fell from heaven then it meant he fell from grace of God and was put in a feiry pit for eternity. And that all his angels which was I think 2/3 of the angels in heaven followed  him.

Edited by starlitkate, 14 October 2006 - 04:28 AM.

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#12    Fothergill

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 10:24 AM

Quote


A fallen angel doesn't literally 'fall'. The 'fall' is the fall from grace with God. However, angels have thrones in the Heavens (stars) and when they fall they are cast off their thrones and no place is thenceforth found for them (unless they find salvation, and yes fallen angels CAN get back into Heaven, Satanail is one of them) so they can still go up to Heaven but eventually they fall back to where they are cast down to. That is usually Earth.


Does that mean Ashley, that every fallen angel, even this Satanail is destined to always fall, have fallen once and strayed from God they are more likely to reoffend? Also I would like to know from whence you got your information about Satanail?? devil.gif


#13    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 10:31 AM

Quote


I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed.  There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament.  This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated.  This has been discussed at length here on UM several times.  The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon.  There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits.  It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.


Is this really true? The bible doesn't even mention satan as being evil? Please verify what you have said.

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#14    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 10:55 AM

Quote


Is this really true? The bible doesn't even mention satan as being evil? Please verify what you have said.


Put into Google the words Satan and Bible then hit search.
You should get the passages you wish to see.

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#15    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 11:03 AM

We now know that the two terms used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, Helel, morning star, and Shahar  dawn, were Babylonian astral deities (which is reflected in most modern translations).

Chapter 14 then begins with the promise of Israelís return from Babylonian exile, a theme that dominates the middle section of Isaiah (40-55). Part of that return would involve the downfall of the tyrant king of Babylon (v. 4; probably Nebuchadrezzer; for the same language used of a later Babylonian ruler, Belshazzar, see Dan 5:20). In that context, verses 12-21 are a poetic picture of that downfall. Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, then, are references to the Babylonian gods who could not save the king, and are themselves to be cast down. In fact, there is probably a reference here to the habit of ancient Near Eastern kings proclaiming themselves incarnations of the gods; with the fall of the kings, the gods also fell, often physically as the images that represented them were pulled down and destroyed (recall the symbolism of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad).source

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So the answer to the original question is Babylon.

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