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Apollo - Video Anomalies?


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#76    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 06:04 PM

straydog, you were one of those who asked for threads on specific issues. You got what you wanted so please stay on topic. This is a thread about the alleged video anomalies.

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#77    phunk

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 06:30 PM

Quote


THESE LIGHTS APPEAR TO BE SEPERATED INTO DIFFERENT SECTIONS , AS IN MULTIPLE LIGHTS .


You mean kinda like the silver part in question is separated into sections in this picture that I know you saw earlier in the thread:

user posted image




#78    straydog

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 06:52 PM

No , I hadn't noticed that photo before ...That might explain why the lights appear to be divided .... but wouldn't the gold strips between the silver on the strut also reflect the light ? ... If you look at the side of the LM in the picture you posted here , you can see that the gold foil is just as reflective as the silver is .... Possibly even more so .... Or is the gold tape used to wrap the struts not as reflective as the foil ?

Edited by straydog, 06 October 2006 - 08:34 PM.

I would rather be in the minority and know the truth , than to be in the majority and be in denial of the truth .

#79    Krynoid

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 01:03 AM

Hi everyone.  I've been a lurker for a while, and really enjoy reading the "Apollo hoax" type threads.  I have no doubt that Apollo happened as documented - I find it absurd that the "photo anomalies" claims are continually pushed as absolute proof that Apollo was faked, when they can so easily be discredited by simply looking at the photos in high resolution, or going out and taking some photos yourself!

I couldn't resist any longer - I had to come in on this thread.  I think most here see the LM where turbonium sees technicians behind a shade.   Turbonium, if I may borrow your frame captures from the video, I am adding my attempt to show you, in the images below, where I believe they match the same parts of AS12-46-6727.

[attachmentid=28769]
[attachmentid=28771]
[attachmentid=28772]
[attachmentid=28773]
[attachmentid=28774]

Allowing for the distortions introduced by this kind of video camera and the very fast movement (as mentioned earlier in this thread), and the difference of angle between where the video was taken and where the photo was taken, I think the matches are spot on.

If this is a faked set, then where exactly are the technicians in relation to the LM?  Given how we see the image pan from when the camera is taken from stowage, I am having trouble trying to visualise where they would be (other than in the LM - is that what you mean?).  Could you do a top down drawing of the set showing where you think things are, and the path of the video pan over the set?

Attached Thumbnails

  • A12_video_1.jpg
  • A12_video_2.jpg
  • A12_video_3.jpg
  • A12_video_4.jpg
  • A12_video_5.jpg


#80    Pericynthion

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 01:34 AM

Quote


I couldn't resist any longer - I had to come in on this thread.  I think most here see the LM where turbonium sees technicians behind a shade.   Turbonium, if I may borrow your frame captures from the video, I am adding my attempt to show you, in the images below, where I believe they match the same parts of AS12-46-6727.


Hi Krynoid.  Welcome to the forum.  I just recently de-lurked myself, so I know how you feel!   That's a great piece of work you've put together.  The sheer number of feature matches is pretty hard to ignore.  I hope turbonium will stop by and address your points.  You've made some good ones.   thumbsup.gif


#81    straydog

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 02:52 AM

krynoid ....  I think that you have shown very well that what turbonium  thinks are anomalies in this Apollo 12 video clip are nothing more than mis-identified objects on the LM ... The only thing I found interesting in this particular clip were the two places where it does look like someone's flesh colored arm is moving around and also what looks like a bank of stage lights .

But in reality I do think this clip contains no real anomalies .... But some of the Apollo 12 still photos do , and this is where you are wrong , in my opinion .

First of all to put "Apollo Hoax" in quotes like you did is incorrect and silly  ... Putting words in quotes should only be applied when describing something it isn't , not when describing something it is .... Believe it or not , millions of people really believe ( for very legitimate reasons)  that Apollo was not a real event , as in the official nasa record , but rather a very expensive staged event .. It was done to fool the world into believing that the United States of America had far more advanced technology and space travel capability than it really did, during the space race and the cold war ....

Your statement of ; "  I find it absurd that the "photo anomalies" claims are continually pushed as absolute proof that Apollo was faked, when they can so easily be discredited by simply looking at the photos in high resolution, or going out and taking some photos yourself!" ,  is totally incorrect also ...  What is absurd is that you would really believe this statement .... Even though the Apollo photographs contain many real and not imagined anomalies ( which are seen even more clearly in high resolution ) , that is not the sole reason for believing that Apollo was a hoax .... If that was all the evidence the conspiracy researchers had to go on , then the belief of a conspiracy , the continued cover up , and debate about this subject , would have died down a very long time ago .

So obviously the photographic and video anomalies ( even though there are plenty of them ) are not the only reasons to believe that nasa faked the moon landings .... There are very many reasons , but they can't be discussed here because we are only supposed to be discussing video anomalies and not the other dozens of reasons which have proven to millions of people that Apollo was a hoax.

Edited by straydog, 07 October 2006 - 03:48 AM.

I would rather be in the minority and know the truth , than to be in the majority and be in denial of the truth .

#82    turbonium

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 08:02 AM

Quote


Er, in the right picture you draw the top line along the strut, in the left picture along the edge of the black foil.  The match comes when you draw the line along the strut in both pictures.

Given the slightly different viewing angles and fields of view of the two cameras, and the movement of the TV camera which introduces multi-colour effects, the match is excellent, and I don't understand why you can't see it.


You mean draw the lines like this, which also do not match?

user posted image

Or like this, which still do not match?

user posted image



Here is another comparison which points out more problems with the strut theory...

user posted image

And another...

user posted image

And yet another...

user posted image
________________________________________________________________________

The pro-strut argument

The LM has four straight white struts which intersect at the center over black material, under which is gold mylar.


- There are four white lines that intersect over the black material in the video clip.

- There is gold mylar under the black material in the video clip.

Conclusion: They match.

The anti-strut argument

The LM has four straight white struts which intersect at the center over black material, under which is gold mylar.

- There are more than four white lines joined in the video. There are only four struts joined
   on the LM

- The white lines in the video are not perfectly straight. The LM struts are straight.

- The white lines in the video are extremely long, and cannot be entirely captured in
   frame by the video camera. The LM struts are 6 or 7 feet in entire length.

user posted image

Above we see the video camera as it pans around. If these white lines are the LM struts, that would mean the camera is panning a field of view no more than 6 or 7 feet! It also means that the panning is restricted completely to the strut area of the LM during the entire video clip!

- The white lines have a totally different geometry than the LM struts. The struts are
   basically a flattened "X" shape, while the white lines in the video are a "+" shape.

- The white lines.....are not always white lines!! The LM struts are straight, thin, white
   strips. There are stills from the video which show that much of the white material is in
   fact not only linear, but is also in wide "sheets".

- The LM struts are positioned over the black material, touching only at the ends, while the
   white material in the video clip is joined to the top of the black material all along its
   length.

- An LM strut is over gold mylar of the LM. No white material in the video is over any gold
  colored material.

- The obvious complete lack of gold mylar in the video clip below the black material. The
   LM gold mylar is seen in every single piece of footage and every photo of every Apollo
   mission with the sole exception of this one video clip?? Simply impossible.

Conclusion: They do not match.

While I understand and appreciate the efforts being made to support the LM strut explanation, the fact is that it is really not a convincing argument.


#83    Pericynthion

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 05:40 PM

Quote


The pro-strut argument

The LM has four straight white struts which intersect at the center over black material, under

which is gold mylar.


- There are four white lines that intersect over the black material in the video clip.

- There is gold mylar under the black material in the video clip.

Conclusion: They match.

The anti-strut argument

The LM has four straight white struts which intersect at the center over

black material, under which is gold mylar.


- There are more than four white lines joined in the video. There are only four struts joined
   on the LM

- The white lines in the video are not perfectly straight. The LM struts are straight.

- The white lines in the video are extremely long, and cannot be entirely captured in
   frame by the video camera. The LM struts are 6 or 7 feet in entire length.


Above we see the video camera as it pans around. If these white lines are the LM struts, that

would mean the camera is panning a field of view no more than 6 or 7 feet! It also means

that the panning is restricted completely to the strut area of the LM during the entire video

clip!

- The white lines have a totally different geometry than the LM struts. The struts are
   basically a flattened "X" shape, while the white lines in the video are a "+" shape.

- The white lines.....are not always white lines!! The LM struts are straight, thin, white
   strips. There are stills from the video which show that much of the white material is in
   fact not only linear, but is also in wide "sheets".

- The LM struts are positioned over the black material, touching only at the ends, while the
   white material in the video clip is joined to the top of the black material all along its
   length.

- An LM strut is over gold mylar of the LM. No white material in the video is over any gold
  colored material.

- The obvious complete lack of gold mylar in the video clip below the black material. The
   LM gold mylar is seen in every single piece of footage and every photo of every Apollo
   mission with the sole exception of this one video clip?? Simply impossible.

Conclusion: They do not match.

While I understand and appreciate the efforts being made to support the LM strut explanation,

the fact is that it is really not a convincing argument.


Hi turbonium.  The "anti-strut" arguments you make above are all explained by characteristics which have been shown to you before:

-  The video is shot from a different position than the still photos.  Three-dimensional objects like the plume deflector struts appear to shift position and angle as the viewpoint changes.
-  The video camera lens has been shown to distort straight lines.
-  The video camera is known to create color artifacts on fast-moving objects due to the method used to create a color image (spinning color wheel).
-  Cameras in general will blur objects when the relative motion of the object is too fast for the camera's shutter speed.
-  The sequence in question was recorded on video, converted to motion picture film, converted back to video, and finally digitized for use on the internet.  This process will create its own set of artifacts and color shifts.

Both AtomicDog and Krynoid have made excellent, detailed posts showing you how the video stills can be assembled into a collage that shows the side of the LM with multiple matching features.  

In one last attempt to help you see what most of the rest of us appear to find fairly obvious, I've started with AtomicDog's great collage idea and have added one extra feature.  Since we know that the camera was moving somewhat randomly, it could easily have rotated along the view axis as it was panning left/right and up/down.  In other words, when building a collage from the video stills, we don't need to keep the individual frames straight.

Shown below is a collage I assembled from video frames you have previously posted.  I've selected only those frames which were not overly blurred by motion and which had features which overlapped other frames.  I moved these frames around and rotated them as necessary to best match up all overlapping features.  Since you've been referring to the dark areas as "black material," I've also used Photoshop to apply a slight color balance shift to the frames with "black material" to make this material a neutral gray.  Basically, I removed some of the cyan tint.  I've also taken the liberty of covering up one of the text boxes your animated gif program applied to a frame I was using.  The white box was a distraction and was not part of the original image.  Here's my result:

user posted image

And here, as you've seen before, is a cropped portion of AS12-46-6728:

user posted image

Can you not see that these are shots of the same object taken from somewhat different positions?  Yes, there are some features visible in one image, but not the other.  This is to be expected.  The video camera is much closer to the LM and is looking up into the RCS plume deflector assembly.  Please refer back to AtomicDog's and Krynoid's posts for a list of all the matching features between these images.  How likely is it that a detailed collage could be assembled and all those features matched with the Hasselblad images if this is not a truly a video of the Apollo 12 lunar module?



#84    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 08:19 PM

Just finished watching an interesting documentary about space exploration. Part of the programme was devoted to a scientific station in Scotland (one of three around the world) which was set up just after the (alledged) moon landings.
Since the mid seventies a scientist has been employed to attend this station each day, & take regular readings from a high powered lazer which is targeted on to a mirror placed on the moon by one of those pesky 'lying' astronauts, this apparently can measure the distance to the moon to within a couple of centimetres, & from the readings it appears that the moon is moving away from us at a rate of 2-3 centimetres per year.
My question is:

1.Are nasa having a big laugh at the expense of this poor deluded scientist?

2. Is the scientist having a laugh at our expense, as he has been drawing a wage for the last thirty years.

or my preferred option

3. Astronauts did go to the moon & place the mirror there, & this thread & those like it are pure ga ga.

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#85    straydog

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 10:35 PM

Speaking of ga ga , here is an official nasa Apollo VIDEO ANOMALY if I ever saw one .... nasa had the Apollo astronauts do different voice overs for the same EVA 'moon' video scenes ... In this particular 'moon' video we get to see how the "house rock" turned into the "football rock" from one edit to the next ....

Yet we are supposed to believe this stuff was recorded "live from the moon " ???  ... All I can say is how embarrassing for nasa ... and what were they thinking ? ... No wonder they are all now the laughing stocks of the world .

This one is called 'How America Faked the Moon Landings '

Running time is 3 minutes 30 seconds ... Watch some more of nasa's bloopers caught on tape !

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...d+moon+landings



I would rather be in the minority and know the truth , than to be in the majority and be in denial of the truth .

#86    phunk

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 11:28 PM

Quote


Speaking of ga ga , here is an official nasa Apollo VIDEO ANOMALY if I ever saw one .... nasa had the Apollo astronauts do different voice overs for the same EVA 'moon' video scenes ... In this particular 'moon' video we get to see how the "house rock" turned into the "football rock" from one edit to the next ....

Yet we are supposed to believe this stuff was recorded "live from the moon " ???  ... All I can say is how embarrassing for nasa ... and what were they thinking ? ... No wonder they are all now the laughing stocks of the world .

This one is called 'How America Faked the Moon Landings '

Running time is 3 minutes 30 seconds ... Watch some more of nasa's bloopers caught on tape !

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...d+moon+landings


Yep, that video is clearly dubbed, most likely by the guy trying to sell it, not nasa.  The 'house rock' comment is taken from an apollo 16 clip of the actual house rock, which is a rock that looked relatively small from a distance but it turned out was bigger and farther away than they thought.  Turned out to be the size of a house.  The football rock is the correct audio.



#87    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 12:10 AM

Quote


Speaking of ga ga , here is an official nasa Apollo VIDEO ANOMALY if I ever saw one .... nasa had the Apollo astronauts do different voice overs for the same EVA 'moon' video scenes ... In this particular 'moon' video we get to see how the "house rock" turned into the "football rock" from one edit to the next ....

Yet we are supposed to believe this stuff was recorded "live from the moon " ???  ... All I can say is how embarrassing for nasa ... and what were they thinking ? ... No wonder they are all now the laughing stocks of the world .

This one is called 'How America Faked the Moon Landings '

Running time is 3 minutes 30 seconds ... Watch some more of nasa's bloopers caught on tape !

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...d+moon+landings


and your point is.....!!


“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#88    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 12:14 AM

http://www.clavius.org/circle.html

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#89    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 12:17 AM

Why a conspiracy

As entertainment. Real life is boring. We constantly seek to embellish it, whether formally through media such as motion pictures or fictional literature, or informally through the exaggeration of our personal experiences. It's more exciting to believe that strange lights in the sky are visiting aliens and not an airliner's landing lights. As astounding as the moon landings were, it's even more astounding to suppose that the entire thing was falsified.

To seem intelligent. Conspiracy theories are often much more elaborate than what's commonly believed about something. And they usually require the listener to expand his understanding to accept the possibility of a conspiracy. Those who casually examine photographs of the lunar landings are impressed when they are led to discover discrepancies. This inflates the ego and gives one the impression that he is smarter than the dozens who look at the same photographs and see nothing special.

To be "on the inside." The conspiracist fancies himself to be elite, to be privy to secret information that few others have.

To express distrust for authority. Americans especially take delight in distrusting authority, particularly governments.

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#90    straydog

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 12:23 AM

Both voice dub overs are nasa's and seem to belong to this same video , as the movements of the astronauts and the astronaut's voice overs are completely synchronized .

Can you show any proof that the Apollo 16 "house rock" belongs to another video instead of this one ?

The "guy selling it " sure isn't doing it for monetary gain on Google videos .... I think the correct explanation for these dub overs would be that he found them on nasa sites and decided to bust out nasa and their bogus 'moon' missions .

So my point is ... none of what nasa shows us in their phony videos was filmed "live on the moon " .. or even filmed on the moon at all .

I would rather be in the minority and know the truth , than to be in the majority and be in denial of the truth .




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