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What Is The Christian View On The Dinosaur?


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#571    Yamato

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostArbitran, on 24 June 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

I merely noted that I find it interesting that most Christians would like to have their beliefs be Bible-based, and many modern Christians who haven't studied have a notable proclivity towards imagining that things like Paradise Lost and C.S. Lewis' books are part of the Bible's text. That was all I said. I apologize if you read into it.
You've been noting a lot more than merely that, of late.  Just so I understand the distinction in the note you're making here, you would find it uninteresting if most Christians would like to have their beliefs based on ______?  

It's imagination on your part to think that "modern Christians" think C.S. Lewis is "part of the Bible's text".  The Chronicles of Narnia contain well known Christian allegory.  We understand allegorical concepts in religion that aren't data mined out of the Bible and regarded by their exact text. You almost answer your own question but can't quite land it.   If Christians "only read perhaps 10% of the text" then obviously it's not as important to them as you keep rhetorically fluffing it up to be.   Is the real point you're trying to make here that Christians are so ignorant, they just throw their beliefs on a book they've never read?  If you want to find someone who takes their book seriously enough to read it, find a Muslim.

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#572    Arbitran

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:09 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 June 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

You've been noting a lot more than merely that, of late.  Just so I understand the distinction in the note you're making here, you would find it uninteresting if most Christians would like to have their beliefs based on ______?  

It's imagination on your part to think that "modern Christians" think C.S. Lewis is "part of the Bible's text".  The Chronicles of Narnia contain well known Christian allegory.  We understand allegorical concepts in religion that aren't data mined out of the Bible and regarded by their exact text. You almost answer your own question but can't quite land it.   If Christians "only read perhaps 10% of the text" then obviously it's not as important to them as you keep rhetorically fluffing it up to be.   Is the real point you're trying to make here that Christians are so ignorant, they just throw their beliefs on a book they've never read?  If you want to find someone who takes their book seriously enough to read it, find a Muslim.

I'll ignore the utterly hypocritical switch-tactic about Islam there. You seem to think that Christians know the Bible better than Muslims know the Quran; I can't say that's not true, but I can say that I am very skeptical, given the fact that my observations reveal that Christians tend not to read very much of the Bible. And yes, they find it to be of utmost importance; I never said they didn't. Just because they find it important doesn't mean they read all of it. More often than not, they only read prescribed bits; ask a Christian who Jephthah was, for instance, and maybe 95% will have no idea what you're talking about (I tried it). And yes, I know that Christians don't literally think that C.S. Lewis is part of the Bible (they actually do seem to think that the narrative of Paradise Lost is in there somewhere; again, I tried it); I simply meant that a great deal of their modern interpretations and beliefs seem to have been sculpted and heavily influenced by these extra-biblical sources.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#573    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostArbitran, on 24 June 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

I'll ignore the utterly hypocritical switch-tactic about Islam there. You seem to think that Christians know the Bible better than Muslims know the Quran; I can't say that's not true, but I can say that I am very skeptical, given the fact that my observations reveal that Christians tend not to read very much of the Bible. And yes, they find it to be of utmost importance; I never said they didn't. Just because they find it important doesn't mean they read all of it. More often than not, they only read prescribed bits; ask a Christian who Jephthah was, for instance, and maybe 95% will have no idea what you're talking about (I tried it). And yes, I know that Christians don't literally think that C.S. Lewis is part of the Bible (they actually do seem to think that the narrative of Paradise Lost is in there somewhere; again, I tried it); I simply meant that a great deal of their modern interpretations and beliefs seem to have been sculpted and heavily influenced by these extra-biblical sources.
There's nothing hypocritical about telling you to find a Muslim if you want a good chance to meet someone who reads their Holy Book, but your chronic habit of cherry picking obscure pieces of the Bible and making blanket judgments about Christians makes you look extremely ignorant.  

Nothing I've said on this thread should have given you the idea that "Christians know the Bible better than Muslims know the Qu'ran".  

Whether it's "most" or "many" or "a great deal" or "heavily", you sure get a lot of spoons and scales out when it comes to the "Christians" in your observations.   They don't know who Jephthah was because they don't care who Jephthah was and that's the point.  If their religious belief and practice is not Jephthah-dependent, why is that a bad thing?   Why shouldn't an extra-biblical source influence me?   Why shouldn't Aslan sculpt me?   Maybe Aslan should sculpt you?

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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#574    Arbitran

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:16 AM

View PostYamato, on 25 June 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

There's nothing hypocritical about telling you to find a Muslim if you want a good chance to meet someone who reads their Holy Book, but your chronic habit of cherry picking obscure pieces of the Bible and making blanket judgments about Christians makes you look extremely ignorant.  

Nothing I've said on this thread should have given you the idea that "Christians know the Bible better than Muslims know the Qu'ran".  

Whether it's "most" or "many" or "a great deal" or "heavily", you sure get a lot of spoons and scales out when it comes to the "Christians" in your observations.   They don't know who Jephthah was because they don't care who Jephthah was and that's the point.  If their religious belief and practice is not Jephthah-dependent, why is that a bad thing?   Why shouldn't an extra-biblical source influence me?   Why shouldn't Aslan sculpt me?   Maybe Aslan should sculpt you?

My point was that they claim to follow the Bible, and yet display a deplorably-poor understanding of it. You submit that I cherry-pick; I submit that Christians cherry-pick the Bible, and I simply make note of the bits they leave out. And in what way does Aslan "sculpt" people?

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#575    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:18 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

My point was that they claim to follow the Bible, and yet display a deplorably-poor understanding of it. You submit that I cherry-pick; I submit that Christians cherry-pick the Bible, and I simply make note of the bits they leave out. And in what way does Aslan "sculpt" people?
Some people study things on the internet or at school and yet display a deplorably poor understanding of it.   If you want to find people not living up to their own standards, they're everywhere.  Putting that focus of yours in a Christian wrapper looks like a cheap shot (and waste of time) to me.

Yes, Christians cherry-pick and leave things out that you assign to them.  You know how much Bible is right for them and you know them better than they know themselves.   I don't know who these Christians are you're "observing" but I know they don't go to my church.  People don't talk like that, and I can tell from knowing them that they don't think like that.   Browbeating one another for how versed we are on the Bible misses the point.  Sharing peace and community with others is much more important than what you enjoy doing here.

Aslan could sculpt others and did sculpt me (problem?) by suppositionally portraying Jesus in a different world than our own.   First of all, if we believe Jesus's ideals are good for this world, why wouldn't they be good for another world? You see the creation of Narnia.  You see parallels between Aslan and Jesus like whatsoever you do to the least of my creatures, that you do unto me.  Treat even the dumb creatures who don't have the gift of enlightenment and the ability of speech with dignity and respect.   It teaches us the virtue of benevolence and martyrdom, the meaning of sacrifice and resurrection and so on.

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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#576    Arbitran

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:43 AM

View PostYamato, on 25 June 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Some people study things on the internet or at school and yet display a deplorably poor understanding of it.   If you want to find people not living up to their own standards, they're everywhere.  Putting that focus of yours in a Christian wrapper looks like a cheap shot (and waste of time) to me.

Yes, Christians cherry-pick and leave things out that you assign to them.  You know how much Bible is right for them and you know them better than they know themselves.   I don't know who these Christians are you're "observing" but I know they don't go to my church.  People don't talk like that, and I can tell from knowing them that they don't think like that.   Browbeating one another for how versed we are on the Bible misses the point.  Sharing peace and community with others is much more important than what you enjoy doing here.

Aslan could sculpt others and did sculpt me (problem?) by suppositionally portraying Jesus in a different world than our own.   First of all, if we believe Jesus's ideals are good for this world, why wouldn't they be good for another world? You see the creation of Narnia.  You see parallels between Aslan and Jesus like whatsoever you do to the least of my creatures, that you do unto me.  Treat even the dumb creatures who don't have the gift of enlightenment and the ability of speech with dignity and respect.   It teaches us the virtue of benevolence and martyrdom, the meaning of sacrifice and resurrection and so on.

First point: Aslan's behavior and actions are utterly disparate from Jesus'; where anyone could find similarities I can't even begin to imagine (apart perhaps for the seeming "resurrection" bit). Either way, that's irrelevant.

You seem to espouse the position that: because everyone makes mistakes, I should judge specific people for mistakes. That's perhaps a reasonable suggestion. But when there is a very large, influential group of people, which routinely makes extreme mistakes, is it not equally-reasonable to take note of their mistakes? So that one's-self, as well as others, can benefit from the knowledge of said mistakes?

I don't "know how much Bible is good for them" or "know them better than they know themselves" (an excellent point of blatant ad hominem attack though; I couldn't have done better myself). All I have noted is that they claim to wish to follow the Bible, and their actual, demonstrated knowledge and understanding of it is far beneath what one might reasonably expect from someone making such a claim.

And of course, predictably, you resort to the "the-Christians-you're-talking-about-aren't-the-kind-of-Christian-that-I-think-are-really-Christians" dodge. I do find it telling that you seem to consistently make the assumption that I've ever referred to your particular belief system or church; I prefer to comment on standard Christian ideology, not on you, or your church. And again, the only time I really refer to any particular people is when I was making note of specific behaviors I have commonly observed in Christians, which run contrary to their own proposals, or those of standard Christian ideology.

Also, it is intriguing that you bring up "sacrifice". Is it really a sacrifice, for Jesus/Aslan to be killed, if there was full-knowledge on the part of the subject, that they would resurrect (and, in Jesus' case, ascend to heaven for all eternity)? I propose that a true sacrifice cannot exist under these conditions. Yes, sacrifice can be considered virtuous; you seem to have convinced yourself that this is an objectively-true statement. Was it virtuous of all of the Nazi soldiers who died in WWII to "sacrifice" their lives in war, for, what they perceived to be, the greater good of the Reich? As I have stated before, objective morality is extremely rare, if it exists at all; for every virtue, there is a circumstance in which it can be found to be decidedly un-virtuous.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#577    ranrod

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:19 AM

Thought about this from a different thread...We've discussed a Christian's view on the dinosaur, how about the Christian view on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs?  Including the fact that it was 65 million years ago.


#578    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:03 PM

View PostArbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

First point: Aslan's behavior and actions are utterly disparate from Jesus'; where anyone could find similarities I can't even begin to imagine (apart perhaps for the seeming "resurrection" bit). Either way, that's irrelevant.

You seem to espouse the position that: because everyone makes mistakes, I should judge specific people for mistakes. That's perhaps a reasonable suggestion. But when there is a very large, influential group of people, which routinely makes extreme mistakes, is it not equally-reasonable to take note of their mistakes? So that one's-self, as well as others, can benefit from the knowledge of said mistakes?

I don't "know how much Bible is good for them" or "know them better than they know themselves" (an excellent point of blatant ad hominem attack though; I couldn't have done better myself). All I have noted is that they claim to wish to follow the Bible, and their actual, demonstrated knowledge and understanding of it is far beneath what one might reasonably expect from someone making such a claim.

And of course, predictably, you resort to the "the-Christians-you're-talking-about-aren't-the-kind-of-Christian-that-I-think-are-really-Christians" dodge. I do find it telling that you seem to consistently make the assumption that I've ever referred to your particular belief system or church; I prefer to comment on standard Christian ideology, not on you, or your church. And again, the only time I really refer to any particular people is when I was making note of specific behaviors I have commonly observed in Christians, which run contrary to their own proposals, or those of standard Christian ideology.

Also, it is intriguing that you bring up "sacrifice". Is it really a sacrifice, for Jesus/Aslan to be killed, if there was full-knowledge on the part of the subject, that they would resurrect (and, in Jesus' case, ascend to heaven for all eternity)? I propose that a true sacrifice cannot exist under these conditions. Yes, sacrifice can be considered virtuous; you seem to have convinced yourself that this is an objectively-true statement. Was it virtuous of all of the Nazi soldiers who died in WWII to "sacrifice" their lives in war, for, what they perceived to be, the greater good of the Reich? As I have stated before, objective morality is extremely rare, if it exists at all; for every virtue, there is a circumstance in which it can be found to be decidedly un-virtuous.
Just telling me that it's "disparate" without bothering to explain how is baseless at best.   And it's nonsense at worst, because if you knew about the CS Lewis you love to sloppily badger the "Christians" with, you might know that Aslan is meant to be Jesus Christ.

Yes, you're quite the poop mill for the mistakes of one group to the exclusion of other groups.  You accuse me of ad hominem when you've been engaging in one ridiculous statement about the "Christians" after another.  

Why is my church not "standard"?  There might be tens of thousands of denominations of Christianity and who are you to determine what "standard" is.  Is it the mean?  The median?   I go to multiple churches of multiple denominations and none of them exhibit the piss you're taking about "the Christians" so yes, it makes you look extraordinarily ignorant.   I don't know who these Christians are you're talking about.   I think you have too many broad brushes dipped in too much brown paint you made yourself.

I'm pretty sure that the people and creatures who knew Jesus and Aslan before their deaths thought their deaths were a great sacrifice.  It's a matter of perspective and once again, a perspective you don't have, so you go on another mud throwing tirade in response.   Is it not virtuous for soldiers to sacrifice themselves in war?   Or does it depend?  That's a good enough topic for a whole new discussion.  Why don't you post it if you want to unwind it together?

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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#579    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:13 PM

View Postranrod, on 25 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Thought about this from a different thread...We've discussed a Christian's view on the dinosaur, how about the Christian view on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs?  Including the fact that it was 65 million years ago.
A Christian's view is that if that's the case, then the age of the mammal had begun.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#580    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:14 PM

View Postranrod, on 25 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Thought about this from a different thread...We've discussed a Christian's view on the dinosaur, how about the Christian view on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs?  Including the fact that it was 65 million years ago.


Interesting spin on it all..I would be curious to read some fine answers to that...I wonder how many will  admit it was over 65 million years ago and how many will believe in the many theories given
by science ?  You note just one theory...but I would like to see what the believers would suggest ...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 25 June 2012 - 02:14 PM.

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#581    Arbitran

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostYamato, on 25 June 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Just telling me that it's "disparate" without bothering to explain how is baseless at best.   And it's nonsense at worst, because if you knew about the CS Lewis you love to sloppily badger the "Christians" with, you might know that Aslan is meant to be Jesus Christ.

Yes, you're quite the poop mill for the mistakes of one group to the exclusion of other groups.  You accuse me of ad hominem when you've been engaging in one ridiculous statement about the "Christians" after another.  

Why is my church not "standard"?  There might be tens of thousands of denominations of Christianity and who are you to determine what "standard" is.  Is it the mean?  The median?   I go to multiple churches of multiple denominations and none of them exhibit the piss you're taking about "the Christians" so yes, it makes you look extraordinarily ignorant.   I don't know who these Christians are you're talking about.   I think you have too many broad brushes dipped in too much brown paint you made yourself.

I'm pretty sure that the people and creatures who knew Jesus and Aslan before their deaths thought their deaths were a great sacrifice.  It's a matter of perspective and once again, a perspective you don't have, so you go on another mud throwing tirade in response.   Is it not virtuous for soldiers to sacrifice themselves in war?   Or does it depend?  That's a good enough topic for a whole new discussion.  Why don't you post it if you want to unwind it together?

Again, it isn't really a sacrifice unless it's permanent. Christians believe that Jesus died to redeem our sins and save us from hell; well, a real sacrifice towards that end (putting aside the fact that the mitzvot clearly preclude such a thing) would be very simple: have Jesus sent to hell for all eternity, like is supposed to happen to us. Going to hell, allegedly, for about a day and a half, like he did, is not a sacrifice in this instance, if indeed he is meant to have been resurrected and ascend to heaven forever.

And the way one determines what the "standard" views of Christianity is to look at all of the denominations, and find which ideologic points are shared been all or the majority of them. I don't exclude other groups from being capable of making mistakes (I said so specifically in my previous post, in case you didn't notice); but that does not mean that, when faced with Christians, I will ignore the problem, simply because there are others in the world.

Of course you don't know the "Christians" I'm talking about; nobody apart from non-Christians really do, because from my experience, Christians don't want to admit that they do these things. Everyone can see what Christians do; it's not exclusive either (as you said, Muslims are often oblivious to their own problems as well).

Of course I know that the idea of Aslan is supposedly based on Jesus, which is a reasonable assessment; what I asked is, apart from the resurrection element, what else do they have in common? And how does either sculpt or influence you/Christians? The teachings of Jesus were fine, but there are better, and some of his are outright wrong (he had a particularly poor grasp on seeds; he thought the mustard seed was the smallest of seeds, and that a seed has to die to germinate?).

And, again (I've already explained this; you don't seem to have noticed), the virtue of soldiers sacrificing themselves in war is a wholly subjective, relative concept. What's virtuous to one culture might be horrific in another. The Nazi soldiers who gave their lives to defend the Reich were virtuous in the framework of their own civilization; to most others though, they were some of history's most heinous criminals. It's all a matter of perspective; and one which I'd rather not elaborate upon any further, lest I digress.

And yes, I will point out when you use an ad hominem; I'm not against pointing that sort of thing out if it crops up. Part of why I am now convinced that you, as with many of the other Christians here (you just happen to be playing right into my view of Christianity; your actions are fully expected by what I have observed), do not actually read my posts: you continue to say that my views are "baseless" or that I'm "broad-brushing", despite the fact that I have fully explained both of these points before.

I give reasons for my statements each time; and the only cause for me to "broad-brush" Christians would be to simply note that their behavior seems to be rather evenly-distributed among them. I base my statements on my own observations of Christians, and my own study into the Bible; it helps too that I was a Christian myself for more than forty years. My views are far from "baseless"; quite the contrary, they are based on experience and collective observation. In order to reverse or disprove my statements, you would simply have to demonstrate that my views are mistaken, and that Christians do not behave in the ways I claim; unfortunately for that end, you seem to be doing a wonderful job of acting perfectly in accord with what I would have predicted.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#582    Arbitran

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostYamato, on 25 June 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

A Christian's view is that if that's the case, then the age of the mammal had begun.

Again, a sub-standard Christian view. If solely for the reason that the Bible's creation myth is in absolute contradiction to the history of the world as we now know it; Genesis holds that all land animals were created in the sixth day by God. Science is in direct opposition to such a view: unless you're saying that by "create" it meant evolved, and by "day" it meant 300 million years, and by "God" it meant natural processes. If it said that, maybe Christianity would be compatible with science.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#583    Arbitran

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 25 June 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Interesting spin on it all..I would be curious to read some fine answers to that...I wonder how many will  admit it was over 65 million years ago and how many will believe in the many theories given
by science ?  You note just one theory...but I would like to see what the believers would suggest ...

I've heard some really crazy **** about this. I've heard Christians claim that it was Lucifer falling from heaven instead of a meteor impact... Or then, a more "mainstream" Christian view seems to be that the dinosaurs were killed off by the Noachian flood (that incidentally hasn't a scrap of evidence). I'll be interested to see what they have to say on this one. I'll bet 10/1 that they'll deny that Christians say what I've just said they do; a denial which simply betrays the average Christian's inability to accept the truth about their own religion.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#584    pbarosso

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostArbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

a denial which simply betrays the average Christian's inability to accept the truth about their own religion.

and what is this truth. does it come in a jar? do you have some "truth" on your shelf?

your truth would not change the "truth" about christianity. belief in old testament creation stories does not make someone an idiot as so many people on this forum believe. for christians it is the new testament as i am sure you already know. to dwell on trolling your average christians is just plain lame.

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#585    Arbenol

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostArbitran, on 25 June 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I've heard some really crazy **** about this. I've heard Christians claim that it was Lucifer falling from heaven instead of a meteor impact... Or then, a more "mainstream" Christian view seems to be that the dinosaurs were killed off by the Noachian flood (that incidentally hasn't a scrap of evidence). I'll be interested to see what they have to say on this one. I'll bet 10/1 that they'll deny that Christians say what I've just said they do; a denial which simply betrays the average Christian's inability to accept the truth about their own religion.

I'm not sure what you can consider to be a 'mainstream' christian. There are so many different beliefs within it that's it hard to keep track on who believes what. It's certainly true to say that fundamentalist christian belief is that the Bible is inerrant. This is a position that is clearly untenable in light of the convergence of scientific understanding.





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