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What Is The Christian View On The Dinosaur?


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#76    AtlantisRises

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:10 PM

I'm sorry DC but Dragon refers to a much more narrowly defined creature then Dinosaur.

Also the fact that there are no post KT dinosaur fossils proves that the dinosaurs were no longer around.

Lastly while it is true that Carbon dating does not work over long periods of time many other isotopic dating systems DO work.

Isotopic dating can be used to determine the age of the rock the fossils are set in. This in turn gives a reasonable estimate of the age of the fossils themselves.

While not all rocks can be tested. Enough of them can be tested to show that these creatures lived Millions of years ago. Not thousands.

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#77    GabrielsAid

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:33 PM

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Well in the bible God created Man first with all other modern day animals like bears, dogs, etc. He didn't make dinosaurs, kill them off, and then make man...he made man first. Get what I mean?



What Bible are you reading??  God created animals first.  And for you to say the Bible should mention Dinos,  What???  So would it have to list all the anamals on earth for it to be the truth?

19 And evening was and morning was: the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the waters teem with the breath of living creatures, and let birds fly above the land across the face of the expanse of heaven." And so it was.
21 And so God created the great sea-creatures and every breath of living, moving creature with which the waters teem, according to their proper kind, and every winged bird, according to their proper kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and increase, and fill the waters in the seas; and the birds let increase upon the earth."
23 And evening was and morning was: the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their proper kind: cattle, creatures that crawl on the ground, and wild animals, according to their proper kind." And so it was.
25 And God made the wild animals according the their proper kinds, and the cattle according to its proper kind, and every creature that crawls on the ground according to their proper kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness, and let them reign over the fish of the sea, and the birds of air, and the cattle, and all the land, 2 and all the creatures that crawl upon the earth."
27 So God created man in the image of himself,

Edited by GabrielsAid, 16 October 2006 - 08:40 PM.

14 Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.

16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?" But we have Christ's mind.


1 Corinthians 2  14-16

#78    Cadetak

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:34 AM

^^^
Okay answer me this then...how did Adam and Eve survive the exstinction of the dinosaurs? And why would god create dinosaurs, destroy them, and then create modern day animals, and then create adam and eve?

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#79    CreationBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 02:42 AM

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^^^
Okay answer me this then...how did Adam and Eve survive the exstinction of the dinosaurs? And why would god create dinosaurs, destroy them, and then create modern day animals, and then create adam and eve?


Hi,

I'm new to this site. Sorry for interupting a topic that has been going on, but I feel the need to interject. The word dinosaur did not come about until the late 1800's. Prior to that, dragons could have been the terminology referred to in the bible. In addition, if dinosaurs supposedly lived millions of years ago without cohabitating with man, then how would one explain the ancient artifacts (pottery, buildings) which depict dinosaurs very accurately.


#80    draconic chronicler

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 08:22 PM

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I'm sorry DC but Dragon refers to a much more narrowly defined creature then Dinosaur.

Also the fact that there are no post KT dinosaur fossils proves that the dinosaurs were no longer around.

Lastly while it is true that Carbon dating does not work over long periods of time many other isotopic dating systems DO work.

Isotopic dating can be used to determine the age of the rock the fossils are set in. This in turn gives a reasonable estimate of the age of the fossils themselves.

While not all rocks can be tested. Enough of them can be tested to show that these creatures lived Millions of years ago. Not thousands.


Are you on drugs guy?  In all the posts I have ever made on UM I have NEVER said the earth was only thousands of years old or that dinosaurs survived the KT extinction.  And I have also stated many times, and completed a major book on the subject, that the"dragons" reported in world myths and relgions up until the late middle ages are not dinosaurs.  

I have never disputed carbon dating or any of the other dating systems either, and I fully believe in Evolution, and an earth over a billions years old.    Read people's posts before you jump into something you obviously know nothing about.


#81    Tribal X

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 09:35 PM

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Their 'proof' is attacking science and saying all the testing methods under the sun are false.
So by some odd and amazing happening the T-Rexs, raptors and more... All lived together in peace with mankind?


by the looks of this board, we arent the ones who are doing the attacking



#82    tdhowe

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:40 AM

Not to be dragged into a debate, but I just wanted to add my knowledge to the discussion.  I grew up in a very christian home.  My father was a methodist pastor and my mother was the youth director at several of the churches that my dad was appointed to.  As well later in life, when i was in college my mom became a pastor for a Christian church (Disciples of Christ).  Growing up we were taught to ask any questions that we wanted and to always seek the truth.  To that end I have asked many people many different questions about the faith.

On to the actually response about dinosaurs. - For reference when I say the story of genesis I am refering to genesis ch. 1-10, the stories of creation, adam and eve, cain and abel, noah and the flood.

Christians seem to fall into three different catagories about this.  The first is that the genesis creation story is to be taken exactly as stated and that dinosaurs were created when the rest of the animals were and brought onto the ark.  Since then they have all died out obviously.  The fossilized bones that are found now are dinos that died during the flood and whose bones where buried in the silt and mud associated with it.

The second belief is that genesis occured exactly as stated and that dinos were created by the devil to lead us astray from God.  The bones that are found are really decoys placed there so that we would not believe the genesis story as exactly written.

The third belief is that evolution occured under the guidance of God.  The story of genesis is a metaphor for why humans experience the things we do.  This is not to mean that the bible is false, just that instead of those sections being factual details of events, they are a story provided by God to give truth from events that were beyond the scope of what early hebrews could understand.

As I mentioned above, I was instilled with a desire to know the truth (probably why I come to websites and message boards like this one) by my dad.  At some point in high school I became curious about the story of creation and deceided that the best way to find out about something from the old testament was to ask a rabbi since the jews wrote that part of the bible and still to this day study it.  The answer that I received from him was essentially the third one.  He added for me that at one time all of the tribes had different creation stories and that when moses wrote genesis he chose that specific one since it had the most elements from all of them.  Since then I have also spoken to several christian pastors of different denominations including my dad that have told me a similar belief.  


--Side note, someone asked about man being created either before or after animals. Several pastors, not all falling into the third catagory have also told me that there are three creation stories in the bible.  I have been given different reasons for this, I am inclined to agree with the rabbi that the reason is due to the different tribes and their stories.  But for your reading pleasure I am including the verse numbers for these.

Genesis 1:1-2:3 - this shows creation in an "evolution" type order from plants to animals to man.
Genesis 2:4-2:25 - this shows the creations of adam and eve.  With man being first
[/indent]It specifically says that no plants had grown, then god made adam, then plants grew.  After this "2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name."
John 1:1-1:5 - This is a more spiritual creation story



#83    Lone Owl

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 05:12 AM

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^^^
Okay answer me this then...how did Adam and Eve survive the exstinction of the dinosaurs? And why would god create dinosaurs, destroy them, and then create modern day animals, and then create adam and eve?


First things first...

God created the cosmos, the animals( including dinosaurs) and lastly man (Adam and Eve).
When mankind multiplied and spread throughout the entire globe, he became evil, wicked and sinful as a result of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Beginning. When God saw how evil mankind had become he decided to send a great flood to get rid of sin from the world.
Out of all the people on earth only Noah was judged godly in God's eyes. So he was told by God to build an Ark, he was later instructed to bring animals of every kind in pairs (male & female) and his family into the Ark. When the doors of the great boat was closed the sky opened and it rained. So whatever was left outside died in the great Flood (this is your extinction). When the Earth was wiped clean and the rain stopped, whatever animal that was in the Ark repopulated the globe, those who died out couldn't adapt to the new environment after the flood.

So there, your happy with this answer grin2.gif




#84    Big cheese

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:55 AM

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First things first...

God created the cosmos, the animals( including dinosaurs) and lastly man (Adam and Eve).
When mankind multiplied and spread throughout the entire globe, he became evil, wicked and sinful as a result of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Beginning. When God saw how evil mankind had become he decided to send a great flood to get rid of sin from the world.
Out of all the people on earth only Noah was judged godly in God's eyes. So he was told by God to build an Ark, he was later instructed to bring animals of every kind in pairs (male & female) and his family into the Ark. When the doors of the great boat was closed the sky opened and it rained. So whatever was left outside died in the great Flood (this is your extinction). When the Earth was wiped clean and the rain stopped, whatever animal that was in the Ark repopulated the globe, those who died out couldn't adapt to the new environment after the flood.

So there, your happy with this answer grin2.gif



Im amazed do you really believe this?? take a look at what your saying and think about it ,im going to forget the abundant overwhelming evidence that shows that this is simply not the case and the effect that this sort of limited gene pool would have on any species for a moment and ask how on earth can you account for sedimentary deposits that show the complete opposite?


#85    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 01:46 PM

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First things first...

God created the cosmos, the animals( including dinosaurs) and lastly man (Adam and Eve).
When mankind multiplied and spread throughout the entire globe, he became evil, wicked and sinful as a result of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Beginning. When God saw how evil mankind had become he decided to send a great flood to get rid of sin from the world.
Out of all the people on earth only Noah was judged godly in God's eyes. So he was told by God to build an Ark, he was later instructed to bring animals of every kind in pairs (male & female) and his family into the Ark. When the doors of the great boat was closed the sky opened and it rained. So whatever was left outside died in the great Flood (this is your extinction). When the Earth was wiped clean and the rain stopped, whatever animal that was in the Ark repopulated the globe, those who died out couldn't adapt to the new environment after the flood.

So there, your happy with this answer grin2.gif


So then presumably noah & his family then committed incest to repopulate the earth, & presumably the reason there are millions of different species of animal on the planet today means that Darwin was correct with his theory of evolution, (which blows creationism out of the water so to speak)

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#86    Imposter

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:26 PM

The funny thing is all you non-christians keep asking Christians what happened like we were there or we actually co-authored the bible. Well, let me break itt down for you, we WEREN'T THERE, nor did any one of us on this board contribute to the written word of the bible (that I know of grin2.gif )!!!!!!! The exact same way you dont know what the hell happened, is the same way we dont know for sure!!! Ok so everything in the bible is wrong, cool!

So how did the world come ? Big bang ? Hmmmm... interesting. I'll ask this question for the one millionth time...

HOW DID THE MATERIALS OF THE WORLD COME ABOUT TO CAUSE THE BING BANG ??????? Because after all, if there was nothing at all in this realm, universe, dimension, whatever... how did anything come about with nothing there ? We all know this "theory" that bacteria and micro organisms formed blah blah blah... but how did this come about ? An explosion ? Please...

You can discredit the bibles words all you want, but believe me when I tell you that you're not getting anywhere fast.


#87    Jor-el

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 10:44 PM

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Why not mention the creation in a more literal sense then, instead of relying on a fable format.


If you ever get the time I would suggest that you read the thesis called "hamlets mill"
Here is the complete title:
Santillana & Dechend - Hamlet's Mill - An Essay On Myth And The Frame Of Time

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#88    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 11:55 PM

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Hi,

I'm new to this site. Sorry for interupting a topic that has been going on, but I feel the need to interject. The word dinosaur did not come about until the late 1800's. Prior to that, dragons could have been the terminology referred to in the bible. In addition, if dinosaurs supposedly lived millions of years ago without cohabitating with man, then how would one explain the ancient artifacts (pottery, buildings) which depict dinosaurs very accurately.



welcome to Um, and don't feel sorry for "interrupting" the discussion -- that's what you are supposed to do.

It is unfortunate that so many Christians cannot grasp the fact that evolution and creation are compatible.  There are many great scientists who count themselves "evolutionary creationists" believing that the 6 periods of the creation story are epochs covering a great span of time instead of 24 hour days.  Knowledgeable Hebrew linguists can make a good case for the former, and if we accept this premise then we see the most remarkable creation epic in any human culture, with life beginning in the sea, later great monsters ruled the earth, then the modern beasts of the field and finally mankind.  Admittedly, the epic is not perfect but we have to remember these stories were an oral tradition centurie before they were written down, leaving the possibility for some "mistakes".

The problem the fundies have is that they only selectively believe those parts of the Bible they feel comfortable with and ignore the rest.   And this is the problem with the "dragons" in the Bible.  What must be understood is that the "dragons" (Tannyn in Hebrew), that lived in the Epoch between the period of fish and the period of "beasts of the field" were in fact, what we today know as dinosaurs, and the other Tannyn that sing praises to God in the book of Psalms, flew God across the sky in II Sanual and Psalms, sent to swallow moses and Jonah, destroyed the first born of Egypt, and the "fiery flying serpents" who killed and sickedned the Israelites, really are "dragons", the same enigmatic winged reptilian creatures universally believed in by virtually every human culture for thousands of years.  

Obviously, if the bible says these creatures sing, speak, spew fir and devour God's enemies, and give God rides on their backs, they are not the same dinosaurs that the fossil record says went extinct 65 million years ago.  And the petroglyphs and eyewitness accounts of humans in the ancient world are not of dinosaurs, but heavenly creatures that may have been enhanced versions of dinosaurs when nearly every human culture believed in, and claimed to see, but being heavenly creatures, none of their bones have ever been found.

Christians who claim dinosaurs fossils are only 6000 years old only make a mockery of Christianity, for geologists and paleontologists really know what they are talking about, and these dinosaur fossils can be reliability dated and NONE date earlier than 65 million years ago.  But the bible states that "fiery flying serpents" are heavenly creatures that did and do live in the time of men.  Perhaps the cryptid, dragon like creatures still sighted in mdoern times, but never caught are these same dragons, since after all, they are supposed to destroy on third of the human population during the prophesized apocolypse.


#89    IamsSon

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 11:57 PM

Here is another Christian perspective on the Dinosaur question.    LINK  
I believe that God wanted us to exercise all of our mental capacities, including the ability to ask questions, seek answers, and use our imaginations, which is why He didn't provide all the answers or give more specific answers in the Bible.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#90    Jor-el

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 12:16 AM

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^^^
Okay answer me this then...how did Adam and Eve survive the exstinction of the dinosaurs? And why would god create dinosaurs, destroy them, and then create modern day animals, and then create adam and eve?


I would suggest that maybe the problems we are facing in this thread are due to the classical interpretation we all learned about but which evidence suggests was not what the ancients actually believed.

Maybe a little biography about Moses the "author" of Genesis will help us to understand the background that puts Genesis in its' proper context.

Moses was an Israelite who was brought up in Egypt, specifically in the egyptian royal household of the Pharaoh. He was brought up as an adopted son of the Pharoah. As such he was brought up with egyptian teachings which include the "Enūma Elish" the  Sumerian Babylonian mythology. If one reads this "epic" one will immediately see the connection between it and the Genesis format. The creation account in the Enūma Elish is very similar in content and style to the version we have in Genesis.

It is also a possible reason as to why Genesis was writtn in poetic format (like the Enūma Elish) rather than in a more literal way. It is also important to state that at that time, these writings were not considered fables or myths but an actual and factual account of creation.

From the context of Moses' upbringing we can clearly state that he was trying to produce a document which would be the equivalent of the Enūma Elish for the Israelite people.

One other important aspect is that another commonality is shared between these two books and their respective cultures, and that is that the world was not created perfect but was brought to that condition by the Elohim (Gods) or God in the genesis account because of Divine judgement.

So, 1st there was chaos and then there was order. This is a "motiff" that repeats itself throughout the bible in many ways. Noah and the flood is another example of this continuous "theme".

(It is interesting to note that every single ancient culture from America, Europe, Africa, Asia and Australia has a flood account followed by a Noah figure who survives in an ark or at the top of a very high mountain with many animals.)

The bible states:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty(a), darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

(a) Please note that "formless and empty" here almost seems to have a subtle connection to chaos

The NIV Bible states that "WAS" in this verse could possibly be substituted with"BECAME".
Does that change anything for you?

So in conclusion, we can interpret this to mean that:

1. 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Something happened to this earth, a great destruction due to Divine Judment.
3. Verse 2 states how we find the earth at the time that he stepped in to put order back to the earth.

So what we really have in the Genesis account is what one could call a Reconstruction and not a Creation.

Please notice how the days go by and how God speaks:

Day 1 - And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Did he create it or did he make it reappear since everything was in darkness? Cloud cover or dust dissipates and allows the sun to shine again.

Day 2 - And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky."
It seems this is a continued effect from Thick cloud cover that darkened the sky, with rain falling continuously. The rain stops as dissipation takes place thus now we have the sky visible where before nothing was visible.

Day 3 - And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas."
As the water runs off after the rains so land now becomes dry and livible again. The waters gather at low points creating lakes and "seas".

Day 4 - "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds."
A natural after-effect after the land becomes dry enough to allow vegetation to grow.

Day 5 - And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness.
It would seem that as the sky clears one would again be able to see the stars, moon and sun.

"Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
It would seem that the word create here has been used to state specifically that God repopulated the world again with all animals and fish. Does this mean that no animals and fish existed before the "Divine Judgement" of verse 2. So it is highly likely that he didn't invent new species but used existing "molds" to repopulate the world.

Day 6 - Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
Same as above.

"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Finally we see that man was created on the 6th day after the animals.

Only when God created the marine and terrestial life including man did he actually create. The rest was reconstruction.

Now think of Noah and you have the same essential story repeated in a different context. It is also interesting that God equates Noah with Adam. This seems to be sending us a message that there are and have been great cycles at work in the bible.

Finally, There is absolutely no way that the days are periods of time as has been suggested, they are in fact physical days of 24 hours each. Why complicate things when the simplest interpretation is most likely correct and no errors have been made.

It is also necessary to state that there is also no way to know how much time passed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. or even how many cycles there have been but I do know that we didn't "evolve" from the apes as the saying goes yes.gif

Enjoy!

Edited by Jor-el, 21 October 2006 - 12:30 AM.

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