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The Black Dahlia mystery


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#16    Antilles

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:47 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 10 March 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

That's from the book I was talking about in the Thelma Todd thread, "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles".

I'm not convinced that Wolfe entire theory might be true ( that Beth became pregnant by Norman Chandler, that Bugsy killed Beth to send a message to Jack Dragna ), but the book is a very good read. Part 1 of the book is mostly about the Dahlia case, part 2 is mostly about the history of LA's Underworld, so it's a fun book to read.

In fact I wrote recently a review on Amazon: My Review on Amazon.com

In mean it's possible that Bugsy was indeed the killer, Wolfe simply doesn't offer enough evidences to back up his claims. He claims Bugsy was helped by Jack Anderson Wilson ( my favorite suspect ), Al Greenberg, Maurice Clement, and that an abortionist paid by Chandler cut Beth in half, basically to remove the foetus. Wolfe simply doesn'T offert enough evidence that Chandler really knew Beth Short, this seems to be based more on fantasy than on hard evidences. But is the book a good read ?? Oh yeah. :yes:

Must be my mind reading capabilities Jon because I haven't read that book! I must check out your review of it.

I've always believed there was a reason why BD was dumped on South Norton Ave. In '47, the area was just  empty blocks. What do you think of this idea? Dr Walter Bayley, abortionist to the stars, lived one block away from where BD was dumped.
http://www.lmharnisch.com/bayley.html

Harnisch was, maybe still is, a reporter for the LA Times. He makes a good case against  Doc Bayley.


#17    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:27 PM

View PostAntilles, on 11 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Must be my mind reading capabilities Jon because I haven't read that book! I must check out your review of it.

I've always believed there was a reason why BD was dumped on South Norton Ave. In '47, the area was just  empty blocks. What do you think of this idea? Dr Walter Bayley, abortionist to the stars, lived one block away from where BD was dumped.
http://www.lmharnisch.com/bayley.html

Harnisch was, maybe still is, a reporter for the LA Times. He makes a good case against  Doc Bayley.
I agree, Bayley is a very good suspect. Beth's body was indeed dumped just a block from where he lived. However don't you think that, if indeed Bayley was the killer, he would have tried to dump the body AWAY from the area where he lived ?? I just don't understand why a killer would dump the body of his victim in the area where he recently bought a home, it's really strange. I'm still waiting for more evidences but yes, Bayley is a very interesting suspect, and a more believable suspect than George Hodel.

In "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles", Wolfe claims that Bugsy Siegel and his associates ( Maurice Clement, Greenberg, etc. ) dumped Beth's body on South Norton Ave. to send a message to Jack Dragna. The vacant lot was located a few blocks from Dragna's home. Another interesting possibility. :yes:


#18    Antilles

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:02 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 11 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I agree, Bayley is a very good suspect. Beth's body was indeed dumped just a block from where he lived. However don't you think that, if indeed Bayley was the killer, he would have tried to dump the body AWAY from the area where he lived ?? I just don't understand why a killer would dump the body of his victim in the area where he recently bought a home, it's really strange. I'm still waiting for more evidences but yes, Bayley is a very interesting suspect, and a more believable suspect than George Hodel.

In "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles", Wolfe claims that Bugsy Siegel and his associates ( Maurice Clement, Greenberg, etc. ) dumped Beth's body on South Norton Ave. to send a message to Jack Dragna. The vacant lot was located a few blocks from Dragna's home. Another interesting possibility. :yes:

Yep.

If you look at BD's death this way, many things about it make sense.

She was tortured by a sadistic psycho but expertly dissected. There must be not just a doctor, but a surgeon somewhere in all of this. Dragna was partners with the Bug and it probably one of his men who took the Bug out.

I can see BD as a part time prostitute for Brenda Allen's call girl ring and Bayley ties in with Brenda Allen.

I doubt it was the good doc who dumped BD's body. The Bug or one of his men who probably couldn't be bothered driving too far around - remember, it was early dawn light and the paper boy saw the car.

I think Bayley is a very good suspect and yes, way more believable than George Hodel. His son has an agenda pushing Hodel SNR forward as a suspect and I think numbers one and two on his agenda list are money and fame.


#19    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostAntilles, on 12 March 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I can see BD as a part time prostitute for Brenda Allen's call girl ring and Bayley ties in with Brenda Allen.
You see that's where I have a problem with Wolfe's theory.  :hmm:

He claims Beth worked for Brenda Allen, however he have absolutely no evidences showing that this was true. Beth had no arrest for prostitution, and trust me if she was a prostitute or call-girl she would have been arrested at least once. I know that Brenda Allen's ring was very "professional" and that some of the high-ranked cops of LAPD were actually clients, but still Wolfe have no evidences that Beth and Brenda even knew each other, and that's bothering me. I have read Wolfe's book 3 times, each time searching for evidences connecting Beth to Allen or to Norman Chandler, and I have found nothing. The Black Dahlia Files is a good read but sadly Wolfe's theory is based on very weak evidences.

The only evidence showing me that Beth might have known Allen is the fact a lot of people claims to have seen Beth with Maurice Clement, who was an associate of Allen. On one occasion he allegedly paid her rent, so it's basically the only reason why I believe Wolfe's theory might be true.

About Bugsy: I agree that the timing of what he did, where he went around the time Beth's body was dumped can be proof that he was involved in her murder. Again I don't see why he would have killed Beth just to send a message to Dragna ( Beth meant nothing to Dragna, I'm sure a "pro" like Siegel would have killed a man closer to Dragna if he really wanted to send him a message ), but the fact Beth's body was dumped very close to Dragna's home is very interesting. Also Wolfe claims that the way Beth's mouth was cut was based on an old sicilian tradition, and since Dragna was sicilian and "old school" in the way he operated his business then he would have understood the meaning of the cuts ( the "smile" ). :)


#20    Antilles

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:24 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 16 March 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

You see that's where I have a problem with Wolfe's theory.  :hmm:

He claims Beth worked for Brenda Allen, however he have absolutely no evidences showing that this was true. Beth had no arrest for prostitution, and trust me if she was a prostitute or call-girl she would have been arrested at least once. I know that Brenda Allen's ring was very "professional" and that some of the high-ranked cops of LAPD were actually clients, but still Wolfe have no evidences that Beth and Brenda even knew each other, and that's bothering me. I have read Wolfe's book 3 times, each time searching for evidences connecting Beth to Allen or to Norman Chandler, and I have found nothing. The Black Dahlia Files is a good read but sadly Wolfe's theory is based on very weak evidences.

The only evidence showing me that Beth might have known Allen is the fact a lot of people claims to have seen Beth with Maurice Clement, who was an associate of Allen. On one occasion he allegedly paid her rent, so it's basically the only reason why I believe Wolfe's theory might be true.

About Bugsy: I agree that the timing of what he did, where he went around the time Beth's body was dumped can be proof that he was involved in her murder. Again I don't see why he would have killed Beth just to send a message to Dragna ( Beth meant nothing to Dragna, I'm sure a "pro" like Siegel would have killed a man closer to Dragna if he really wanted to send him a message ), but the fact Beth's body was dumped very close to Dragna's home is very interesting. Also Wolfe claims that the way Beth's mouth was cut was based on an old sicilian tradition, and since Dragna was sicilian and "old school" in the way he operated his business then he would have understood the meaning of the cuts ( the "smile" ). :)

I agree with you about Wolfe and I don't take everything he says as gospel. I think Hannisch is on the mark with Dr Bayley. Where BD was dumped wasn't a random choice - I've never believed that. Mainly because of the care the killer took to 'pose' her body. I mean, if the killer really didn't want her body to be found, he could have dumped her off the Santa Monica Pier as shark bait.

She was left where she was for a reason and yes I agree that it was a warning but to whom and why I'm not sure. The frustrating thing about BD is that she was always on the run to somewhere. Or maybe I should say, she was always running away from something. She moved around so much and told so many lies it's hard to find the facts underneath the fiction.

At least Mary Pacios has tried to right the record about her.

Chandler's involvement - again, I don't know. If and that's a big if he was involved, it would have been far, far removed - a bug splattered on the windscreen of his life and cleaned away.


#21    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

View PostAntilles, on 16 March 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

I agree with you about Wolfe and I don't take everything he says as gospel. I think Hannisch is on the mark with Dr Bayley. Where BD was dumped wasn't a random choice - I've never believed that. Mainly because of the care the killer took to 'pose' her body. I mean, if the killer really didn't want her body to be found, he could have dumped her off the Santa Monica Pier as shark bait.

She was left where she was for a reason and yes I agree that it was a warning but to whom and why I'm not sure. The frustrating thing about BD is that she was always on the run to somewhere. Or maybe I should say, she was always running away from something. She moved around so much and told so many lies it's hard to find the facts underneath the fiction.

At least Mary Pacios has tried to right the record about her.

Chandler's involvement - again, I don't know. If and that's a big if he was involved, it would have been far, far removed - a bug splattered on the windscreen of his life and cleaned away.
I agree that Bayley is a very good suspect, but I'm not convinced. We have to remember that Bayley was very sick at the time Beth was murdered, and a lot of people simply doesn't believe that Bayley's mental and physical condition would have allowed him to commit the murder. Then again Harnisch claims that Bayley killed Beth because of that mental deterioration, sadly he simply have no evidences that it would have been possible for that 67 years old man ( who was never arrested in his life ) to commit such an elaborate crime. The murder of Beth Short was a long, elaborate killing, and I doubt seriously that a man who was losing his mind could have done it. In fact I am now convinced that more than one person was involved. This is basically the only point where I agree 100% with Wolfe, I believe more than one man was involved. Still I believe Bayley is a very interesting suspect.

Mary Pacios's book is great if you want to learn more about the "real" Elizabeth, the girl behind the murder. Sadly a lot of people doesn't even know who was the Black Dahlia, a lot of people doesn't know who she was, doesn't even know her name. Pacios's book is very touching, and show us that Beth was a great person, a nice girl, not the bum or the tease that some investigators claims she was. She wasn't perfect, but she was a decent human being, and Pacios's book is very respectful of Beth, I think everybody should try to learn more about Beth instead of learning more about the way she died. Sadly Pacios's theory that Beth was killed by Orson Wells is simply ridiculous and laughable, probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in my life. But hey, I guess she needed a little "extra" to sell the idea to her publisher, a "bombshell" to surprise people, perhaps because the publishers believed a book only about Elizabeth Short and not about her murder wouldn't sell. Just another tragedy and injustice to Elizabeth.

About Chandler: I still don't know why the most powerful man in LA, a man who could have any women he wanted, would have a relationship with a "nobody" like Beth. No disrespect to Beth, she was a good girl and a great human being, but let's face it: she was a nobody and a lost girl. Why a guy like Chandler would have had a relationship with Beth is beyond me , the guy could have dated almost any actress in Hollywood. Oh I know, you can't control love or decide with who you'll fall in love, but Wolfe's claims that Beth knew Chandler is based on nothing more than the ramblings of one of his drunk friend, and he offers absolutely no evidences that Beth and Chandler even knew each other, even less evidences that Beth was pregnant with his child. It seems like Wolfe's theory is based on fiction and fantasy rather than on facts. Again no disrespect to Beth, she was a good girl, but she was broke all the time and she borrowed money from almost anybody she knew. If indeed she had a serious relationship with Chandler like Wolfe claims then I doubt she would have had to find a place to sleep on a daily or weekly basis, I'm sure Chandler would have helped her.

Also I doubt very seriously that Chandler would have allowed Bugsy, Greenberg and cie. to dump her body in plain view, I'm sure he would have ordered them to hide the body somewhere far from L.A.


#22    Antilles

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:14 AM

Orson Welles huh? Well, maybe if Daffy Duck was involved as his co-conspirator....Whoa, that one's out of left field!

I agree that more should be known about Beth Short than just her death but we wouldn't be discussing her if she'd been a housewife and died in her bed. No-one deserves to die the way BD did, but her lifestyle certainly didn't help her.

The actual facts that we have about her in LA are surprisingly few. She could have been a good time girl, she could have been a naive waif. She certainly told lots of people lots of stories about herself and somewhere in there has to be the truth.

I agree that Bayley wasn't a well man and that doesn't help trying to fit him into the puzzle. But you can't discount the fact that his house and the dump site were a block away from each other. I don't think Bayley tortured her and I have no idea if Siegel was involved but the slashing of the mouth and the other torture inflicted on her are certainly , IMO, signs of a sadist. So if not the Bug, then someone a lot like him.


#23    pinupgirl

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

This is an interesting link .The medium tells the story about what she sees happen.
Lots of interesting stories in this link :)
http://www.underworl....com/dahlia.htm


#24    pinupgirl

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:23 PM

Click on Mystic Echoes.She talks about lots of unsolved cases.

Edited by pinupgirl, 18 March 2012 - 02:24 PM.


#25    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:35 PM

View Postpinupgirl, on 18 March 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

This is an interesting link .The medium tells the story about what she sees happen.
Lots of interesting stories in this link :)
http://www.underworl....com/dahlia.htm
Thanks for the link Pinupgirl. :)

This "psychic" is, in all probability, a fraud. I'm a very open minded guy but I doubt seriously that people can communicate with the deads. We are supposed to believe that this person "connected" with Beth Short without having any evidences to back up the story !? Laughable at best.

The link you shared is nothing more than a mix of "copy and paste" from SEVERED and fiction, no doubt in my mind that the entire article is nothing more than a well researched hoax. A well researched story with some mistakes in it.

We went to the Biltmore Hotel, and she showed me her room, nothing spectacular, a simple room, only a few of her personal things in it

So this person claims that she "went" with Beth to the Biltmore and that Beth showed her her room. Well it's impossible since Beth didn't had a room at the Biltmore, she went there to meet somebody ( she claims it was to meet her sister, but it was somebody else ) and didn't rented a room there. This is proof that the story is nothing more than a hoax, fiction. If indeed this person would have "connected" to Beth she would have known this important piece of information. Huge mistake. Other mistakes can be found in the intro.

The information she "found" about Morrison was already available in SEVERED, published years before the article was written. Nice try, but... :rolleyes:

Edited by JonathanVonErich, 18 March 2012 - 07:36 PM.


#26    Antilles

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:48 AM



Beth couldn't have afforded to stay at the Biltmore!

She hung around the lobby, used the powder room (where she apparently used candle wax on her rotting teeth to make them look better)then walked out the door into  history. This is the last, absolute, verified sighting of her. One week before her body was found.
So you gotta ask yourself - where was she during that week?


#27    pinupgirl

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 18 March 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Thanks for the link Pinupgirl. :)

This "psychic" is, in all probability, a fraud. I'm a very open minded guy but I doubt seriously that people can communicate with the deads. We are supposed to believe that this person "connected" with Beth Short without having any evidences to back up the story !? Laughable at best.

The link you shared is nothing more than a mix of "copy and paste" from SEVERED and fiction, no doubt in my mind that the entire article is nothing more than a well researched hoax. A well researched story with some mistakes in it.

We went to the Biltmore Hotel, and she showed me her room, nothing spectacular, a simple room, only a few of her personal things in it

So this person claims that she "went" with Beth to the Biltmore and that Beth showed her her room. Well it's impossible since Beth didn't had a room at the Biltmore, she went there to meet somebody ( she claims it was to meet her sister, but it was somebody else ) and didn't rented a room there. This is proof that the story is nothing more than a hoax, fiction. If indeed this person would have "connected" to Beth she would have known this important piece of information. Huge mistake. Other mistakes can be found in the intro.

The information she "found" about Morrison was already available in SEVERED, published years before the article was written. Nice try, but... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info  :)


#28    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostAntilles, on 19 March 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

Beth couldn't have afforded to stay at the Biltmore!

She hung around the lobby, used the powder room (where she apparently used candle wax on her rotting teeth to make them look better)then walked out the door into  history. This is the last, absolute, verified sighting of her. One week before her body was found.
So you gotta ask yourself - where was she during that week?
True. Beth's missing week is one of the most fascinating mystery of the entire case.

In Black Dahlia Avenger, Steve Hodel claims that the "Missing Week" is nothing more than a myth, and offers a list of several people claiming to have seen Beth during these 7 days. However a lot of the so-called "witnesses" are not credible, and in a desire to be helpful, reported seeing Beth when in reality it was only someone who looked like her. A lot of the witnesses claiming to have seen Beth said she had dark black hair, when we know she dyed parts of her hair red shortly before she was murdered.

A woman named Christina Salisbury, who knew Beth when she went to Florida, said she spoke to her on January 10 or 11. To me this is probably the only credible account, all the others are probably cases of mistaken identity, in my opinion.

Who knows what really happened to Beth. She could have been abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, it's possible. The possibility that nobody saw her at all during an entire week is indeed very strange. Maybe some people saw her but just decided to say nothing, fearing that the authorities would try to blame them for the murder, another possibility. Again it's difficult to know what really happened.


View Postpinupgirl, on 19 March 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Thanks for the info  :)
You're welcome ! :)


#29    Antilles

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:58 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 19 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

True. Beth's missing week is one of the most fascinating mystery of the entire case.

In Black Dahlia Avenger, Steve Hodel claims that the "Missing Week" is nothing more than a myth, and offers a list of several people claiming to have seen Beth during these 7 days. However a lot of the so-called "witnesses" are not credible, and in a desire to be helpful, reported seeing Beth when in reality it was only someone who looked like her. A lot of the witnesses claiming to have seen Beth said she had dark black hair, when we know she dyed parts of her hair red shortly before she was murdered.

A woman named Christina Salisbury, who knew Beth when she went to Florida, said she spoke to her on January 10 or 11. To me this is probably the only credible account, all the others are probably cases of mistaken identity, in my opinion.

Who knows what really happened to Beth. She could have been abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, it's possible. The possibility that nobody saw her at all during an entire week is indeed very strange. Maybe some people saw her but just decided to say nothing, fearing that the authorities would try to blame them for the murder, another possibility. Again it's difficult to know what really happened.



You're welcome ! :)


If you could figure out where she was during that missing week, then I think you'd work out who the murderers were.
Yep, I think there were 2. The one who tortured and dumped her body and the one who dissected her. Although technically, Dr X would be an accessory I suppose.

So the missing week. Some ideas: she was in plain sight and no-one noticed her. She was in plain sight and anyone who saw her has kept their mouths shut. She was in hiding. She was abducted.

Have I left any out?


#30    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:32 PM

View PostAntilles, on 20 March 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

So the missing week. Some ideas: she was in plain sight and no-one noticed her. She was in plain sight and anyone who saw her has kept their mouths shut. She was in hiding. She was abducted.

Have I left any out?
No my friend, you said it all. :yes:

So we know Beth said that she was meeting her sister at the Biltmore, that's what she said to Manley. No doubt that she was lying.

It's difficult to believe that, for more than 5 days, no one would notice her. Beth always needed help from somebody, was always with somebody ( a date, roommates, etc. ) so it's impossible that absolutely nobody saw her for an entire week. If, indeed, nobody saw her at all then it's proof that she was abducted or brought to a secluded place shortly after she left the Biltmore. If she wasn't abducted or brought to a secluded place then I am convinced that a lot of people saw her, talked to her, but seeing how the authorities treated Manley, Dillon and other suspects they decided to keep their mouth shut.

Some people believe that she was forcibly abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore. It's hard to believe. I'm sure somebody, like the doorman, would have seen the abduction. If she was abducted then it was by somebody she trusted or knew. Only logical.

It's possible that she was in hiding. A lot of people, including former roommate Ann Toth, said that Beth feared something or someone in the weeks before she was murdered. Again it's difficult to know the truth, but a lot of people interested in the case claims that Beth wanted to hide from somebody, that she dyed her hair red because she was trying to change her appearance to escape from somebody or something. Is this true ?? It's a possibility.

I'm interested in Lynn Martin, a former roommate of Beth. Her real name was Norma Lee Myer. She was a runaway, and when she met Beth she was only 16 but claimed she was in her twenties. In the weeks following the murder she was interviewed by the authorities, and she made a very interesting statement about the girls like her and Beth who wanted to become Hollywood stars. She said that "some of them ends up like Beth Short". Well shortly after the interview Lynn Martin disappeared and was never seen again. What happened to her ?? No one know, and that's another fascinating mystery.

Edited by JonathanVonErich, 21 March 2012 - 10:32 PM.





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