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How did they find us.!?


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#181    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:43 AM

Sorry, I am just going to have to answer a few of your points.

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HAZZARD, you are assuming that any aliens that may be coming here, just stumbled accross us or our transmissions. You are overlooking many  things. First off, like us they may have telescopes, and unlike us..so far.. they may have had the ability to peer at planets from hundreds, perhaps thousands of lightyears away, if not more.


That depends on what you mean by peering at our planet. They might be able to detect that there indeed is a planet and if they are really, really good they can even detect that it has an atmosphere that can sustain life. Looking at features on earth would be a stretch, even for them.

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And isn't it viewed that our kind of planet is relatively rare.. so would it be an accident that they would be coming here.


Uhm, I don't think anybody actually knows how rare our planet is.

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Earth has been here for billions of years. If an alien race did find us, isn't it logical they would share what they found with others, who then would also come to chek us out.
The biggest UFO wave occured in the sixties, almost a full 20 years after the detonation of the first atomic bomb. Perhaps it emitted particles that travel much faster than light, that we have yet to discover, that they can detect.


Ehm, I would most certainly disagree with nuclear detonations being the cause of that. First of all, I would suspect scientists would have theoretized/discovered such particles by now. But even more importantly, the sun is essentially one big nuclear fusion process, so even the biggest nukes we could set off here on Earth would be completely masked by those of the sun.

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#182    Annointer

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:01 AM

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Uhm, I don't think anybody actually knows how rare our planet is.

That's mostly an opinion. We haven't explored any other star systems to really know that.


#183    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:03 AM

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That's mostly an opinion. We haven't explored any other star systems to really know that.


I agree. I would like to think that there are many Earth like planets out here, however, nobody can tell yet.

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Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#184    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:16 AM

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But getting back on track, alien beings millions or even billions of years more advanced than mankind would have no problem detecting life on Earth from many lightyears away because they would have a better undertanding on how those laws really work and how to effectively manipulate them for their own purpose of effiency.


Those are actually very interesting examples that you gave, however, in my point of view uses the laws of physics rather than manipulating them original.gif

But no matter how advanced and h... bent on detecting us this civilization is, there are two things they cannot do (in my view):

1) Make a photon/electro-magnetical wave coming from us travel faster than light so it will reach them sooner and
2) If they are so far away that whatever we radiate is lost in the back ground noise, they cannot distinguish what is what and any chance of detection is lost.

They might sent probes through wormholes or do some fancy sub-space tricks, but the two points I have stated above I do have a hard time seeing them come around.

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Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#185    skyeagle409

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:35 AM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 10 2006, 01:16 AM' post='1421380']
Those are actually very interesting examples that you gave, however, in my point of view uses the laws of physics rather than manipulating them original.gif

But no matter how advanced and h... bent on detecting us this civilization is, there are two things they cannot do (in my view):

1) Make a photon/electro-magnetical wave coming from us travel faster than light so it will reach them sooner and

2) If they are so far away that whatever we radiate is lost in the back ground noise, they cannot distinguish what is what and any chance of detection is lost.

They might sent probes through wormholes or do some fancy sub-space tricks, but the two points I have stated above I do have a hard time seeing them come around.

Best,
Badeskov


The Air Force says the UFO enigma is 50,000 years old and also consider that was many centuries before the invention of the radio so now we have to look at it from another aspect and that is, radio wasn't responsible as the means of awareness for other alien civilizations. Here is what we have discovered with the technology we currently have in hand.

http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/remote_earths.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2006/Jan/28-576137.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/supe...rth_040825.html

I figure that in 500 million years, if we are still around, we would have progressed the detection technology and fine-tuned that detection technology capability far beyond what it is today, which brings us back to alien beings who are hundreds of millions or even billions of years more advanced than mankind and their advanced detection technology capabilities.

Edited by skyeagle409, 10 November 2006 - 01:36 AM.

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#186    Unlimited

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:42 AM

The federation has known earth was here for about 2.5 billion years...that's how they figured it out. geek.gif

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#187    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:06 AM

Quote


The Air Force says the UFO enigma is 50,000 years old and also consider that was many centuries before the invention of the radio so now we have to look at it from another aspect and that is, radio wasn't responsible as the means of awareness for other alien civilizations. Here is what we have discovered with the technology we currently have in hand.

http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/remote_earths.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2006/Jan/28-576137.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/supe...rth_040825.html

I figure that in 500 million years, if we are still around, we would have progressed the detection technology and fine-tuned that detection technology capability far beyond what it is today, which brings us back to alien beings who are hundreds of millions or even billions of years more advanced than mankind and their advanced detection technology capabilities.


Cutting to the bone, I think that we essentially agree on this topic. As far as I can tell we both think that the most likely way of spotting a new civilization is not listening in on their radio broadcasts, but rather finding a planet that can sustain life first.

Where we might disagree is on whether we can do this with means faster than light or not. But I guess that is a minor point in this discussion original.gif

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#188    morrison1976

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:59 AM

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I am 34. Look in my profile. I am saying that as you get older, generally, your imagination gets in check


Thats a very arragont thing to say. You know better than me because you have grown up! you want to put that to the test!?
It has nothing to do with your imagination!!! i am 30, so what!! that is a very stupid thing to say my friend !!  So you are saying that im imagining the photos, video, witnesses?? i know thats only a small percentage that is unknown , alien or from earth, who knows, but its there, we all know that. I think even most people in here would agree with me that age does not come into it!!! thank you!

Its true that there may be hundreds if not thousands of intelligent life out there, and we just dont know how long they have been there. Even if its just a thousand years longer than us their technology would be so much different. Who knows what they can do, maybe they can do things that at the moment we say is impossible. You have to remember, as an example, its only been the last hundred years or so that technology has really advanced for us( electronic age you could say) we are still little kids trying to find are way. And most of the time we can only look at what we know, but you have to try and imagine the things they might be able to do. The theories we have now like wormholes could be real, and they have been using these to get from a to b. Maybe the string theory is real and if that is the case, again, that will open the doors to many things. I know they are just theories, but i feel there is so much about this universe we dont know about:)  



#189    skyeagle409

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 03:04 AM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 10 2006, 02:06 AM' post='1421436']
Cutting to the bone, I think that we essentially agree on this topic. As far as I can tell we both think that the most likely way of spotting a new civilization is not listening in on their radio broadcasts, but rather finding a planet that can sustain life first.

Where we might disagree is on whether we can do this with means faster than light or not. But I guess that is a minor point in this discussion original.gif

Best,
Badeskov


Actually, we don't even need to bring the speed of light into the equation because alien civilizations could have had their eyes on Earth during the time of early man  or even when dinosaurs were ruling the Earth. Perhaps, even before the existence of dinosaurs.

Just as we explore the far  reaches of the universe with telescopes, likewise they could be doing the same with technology that is millions of years or more advanced than what we have today  only they have the means to get from "A" to "B" in a relatively short period of time. Eventually, mankind, if mankind is still around, will have to leave Earth permanently because the sun will not last forever or let's say that a Black Hole is detected heading for Earth a hundred or a thousand or more years from now, simply because we won't have any choice in the matter other than to perish into extinction and I am very sure that mankind will not allow that to happen.



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#190    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 03:46 AM

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Actually, we don't even need to bring the speed of light into the equation because alien civilizations could have had their eyes on Earth during the time of early man  or even when dinosaurs were ruling the Earth. Perhaps, even before the existence of dinosaurs.


Yes, agreed. I think I misunderstood you at some point in this discussion, hence the confusion. Sorry about that.

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Just as we explore the far  reaches of the universe with telescopes, likewise they could be doing the same with technology that is millions of years or more advanced than what we have today  only they have the means to get from "A" to "B" in a relatively short period of time. Eventually, mankind, if mankind is still around, will have to leave Earth permanently because the sun will not last forever or let's say that a Black Hole is detected heading for Earth a hundred or a thousand or more years from now, simply because we won't have any choice in the matter other than to perish into extinction and I am very sure that mankind will not allow that to happen.


Yes, given enough time you can do a lot of searching. Actually, in this context I had one point that where I actually had to correct myself and got in doubt. No matter how advanced we are, optical resolution is still limited by the size of the mirror in the telescope and not matter how good we are, we'd never be able to make a telescope able to resolve features on distant planets. But what if we place telescopes on several different planets and synchronize them (no details on how, though:))?.  Similar to what is currently done with radio telescopes (e.g., see http://donb.furfly.n..._walks/vla.html).

Admittedly, I hate think of the technology required, but implemented it would vastly improve resolution.

Just a stray thought.

Best,
Badeskov


Edited by badeskov, 10 November 2006 - 03:48 AM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#191    skyeagle409

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:13 AM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 10 2006, 03:46 AM' post='1421542']
Admittedly, I hate think of the technology required, but implemented it would vastly improve resolution. Just a stray thought.

Best,
Badeskov


Technology is improving constantly, even for the following.

Photometry

Spectroscopy

Radiometry

http://kepler.nasa.gov/sci/capabilities.html

In regards to the military's deep space surveillance systems, we can detect an object the size of a basketball some 20,000 miles away. Much of the technology currently in service was once considered the stuff of science fiction just a decade ago so when we talk of advanced technology millions of years older than ours, we have to think in terms of  objects that we have yet to think of and for which are far beyond our wildest dreams.

Just 200 years ago, who would have thought that air travel would be as common as riding in a horse-drawn carriage? How about space walks and space habitation in Earth's orbit? Such advancement has come a long way in just 200 years and I am talking hundreds of millions of years beyond that as far as alien techonogy is concerned.

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#192    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:21 AM

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In regards to the military's deep space surveillance systems, we can detect an object the size of a basketball some 20,000 miles away. Much of the technology currently in service was once considered the stuff of science fiction just a decade ago so when we talk of advanced technology millions of years older than ours, we have to think in terms of  objects that we have yet to think of and for which are far beyond our wildest dreams.


Yes, and we certainly live in exciting times. However, with telescope (radio and visual) were are actually at the limit of what we can detect. Improving this is more of an engineering task more than anything else. The technology is pushed to the limit on a microscopic level and we cannot hope of improving a given fixed (radio)telescope to give us orders of magnitude better resolution. The way is to use multiple, synchronized telescopes spaced far apart.  

Admittedly, we might discover some other way of doing things, but that is still in the air original.gif

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Just 200 years ago, who would have thought that air travel would be as common as riding in a horse-drawn carriage? How about space walks and space habitation in Earth's orbit? Such advancement has come a long way in just 200 years and I am talking hundreds of millions of years beyond that as far as alien techonogy is concerned.


I can't even begin to fathom how life will be in a 100 years from now original.gif

Best,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 10 November 2006 - 05:24 AM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#193    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:43 AM

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yeah, space is big... but, if you assume there is some warp, subspace technology that is just not 'discovered' yet by us, but discoverable... then there could be millions of star empires out there... what are the odd's they ALL would be nice gentle beings, and not more aggressive like humans?


We still cant say what real aliens are like, of course, but science can provide some useful insights. After all, any biology out there will exist in a landscape of finite resources. Darwinian competition will be their lot, as well as ours. So you can expect that there will be predators.

Predation is an economic device: carnivores leave it to plants or plant eaters to slowly build up energy-rich molecules from sunlight or some other source. They then harvest this crop of useful compounds quickly, a tactic that can power an active life style. But of course, for an intelligent species with technology capable of interstellar travel, predation is seems a bit Stone Age.

Even today, humans (who are a long way from being able to make sporting trips to other star systems) dont rely on predation much. We farm our food, and soon well manufacture it. Killing just for the fun of it, as the Predators do, is no longer considered socially acceptable in most circles. Real Predators, who must be many thousands of years ahead of us, have presumably moved beyond this.  unsure.gif


I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#194    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:48 AM

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The biggest UFO wave occured in the sixties, almost a full 20 years after the detonation of the first atomic bomb. Perhaps it emitted particles that travel much faster than light, that we have yet to discover, that they can detect.



The atomic explosion is from our bombs are noting compared to the energy that are blasted into space every second by the stars. I cant imagine that they would detect the "small" explosions on our little blue dot.

Edited by hazzard, 10 November 2006 - 10:55 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#195    Mind_Freak

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:18 PM

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We still cant say what real aliens are like, of course, but science can provide some useful insights. After all, any biology out there will exist in a landscape of finite resources.

Hazzard, I think it's about time you throw this combination of words out the window. I have been here for a while, and for your sake and mine.... STOP SAYING THAT! The first time you say it it makes you sound intelligent. The second time you say it, it makes you sound intelligent, but a little repetitive. The third time you say it it makes you sound like you are very limited in what you are able to intelligently discuss. It gets worse and worse with every repetition.

Edited by Mind_Freak, 10 November 2006 - 01:20 PM.

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