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How did they find us.!?


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#211    Pax Unum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:37 PM

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You are right of course. Thats why I wrote presumably, maybe hopefully is a better word. God help us all if they one day show up, and not come in peace.  ohmy.gif

but, realistically, thereís no reason why something like Klingons (or worse) arenít out there...


#212    Leonardo

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:39 PM

Getting back to the 'How did they get here?' question. IF a wormhole-type FTL technology is assumed to be used for travel, theory postulates you couldn't predict where in the universe your wormhole would exit unless you had a 'receiver' already in place.

This implies that an initial journey to within reasonable distance of our solar system would have been undertaken using sub-luminal travel methods. Unless the aliens were within a very close distance (<25ly), or they are extremely long-lived, I don't see this as being practical unless there was an overriding reason. Yes, we send spacecraft out on very long journeys into space, but these don't carry living organisms.

For those who consider cryogenic-type hibernation for the travellers, then consider the changes to their society in the up to 25 year (or more even) trip. The aliens would still have to be quite long-lived to consider that acceptable.

So maybe the initial craft are automated? It's possible. However communication with the automated craft still is carried out at light speed. Any course corrections, updates, malfunction corrections etc, would be incredibly difficult at interstellar distances.

Alien visitation to Earth is still possible, however I see it as being (given what we can extrapolate from our knowledge) a very long, difficult undertaking. Simple communication, rather than visitation, would be more probable if science is the only goal. So the next question is why would an alien species undertake such a thing?

Of course all this is null and void if Einstein was wrong and FTL travel is relatively simple and energy effective to achieve.

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#213    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 06:57 PM

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I rather doubt the radio waves theory as well, I think, with all the background noise, x-rays, pulsars and other interference, the signals would be very degraded by the time they got anywhere...


Maybe. A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars. The bigger ones typically boast a megawatt of power, and are focused into beams that are a degree or two across. There are enough such radars that, at any given time, they cover a percent of the sky or so. The signal from the most powerful of these could be found at 50 light-years distance in a few minutes time with a receiving antenna 1,000 feet in diameter.

Indeed, these military radars are the only signals routinely transmitted from Earth that are intense enough to be detectable at interstellar distances with setups equivalent to our own SETI experiments.


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hyperspace, subspace, warping or folding space etc, for ET to visit Earth, they must have some yet unknown way of space travel, anything like our level of technology won't do, I doubt a civilization could progress very far into space if it takes several decades to travel anywhere...


Like I started this thread, and to quote my self...

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What about warp drive? Lightspeed? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and get here in essentially no time? It doesnt matter. There is only one way that they can tell from interstellar distance that intelligent creatures inhabit this planet....RADIO. Our radio signals travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens cant be much farther off than 15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947,(Rosswell). The number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen stars. Thats optimism of a high level indeed.


Edited by hazzard, 10 November 2006 - 07:00 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#214    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 06:57 PM

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I rather doubt the radio waves theory as well, I think, with all the background noise, x-rays, pulsars and other interference, the signals would be very degraded by the time they got anywhere...


They will be. The signals that we have been broadcasting for the last 50 years (100 if you include the really early experiments) won't be detectable beyond maybe a couple of hundred light years or so. After travelling so far the inverse square law tells us that the detected power level will be so low that it will effectively be masked by the cosmic background radiation.

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#215    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:08 PM

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Thats a very arragont thing to say. You know better than me because you have grown up! you want to put that to the test!?
It has nothing to do with your imagination!!! i am 30, so what!! that is a very stupid thing to say my friend !!  So you are saying that im imagining the photos, video, witnesses?? i know thats only a small percentage that is unknown , alien or from earth, who knows, but its there, we all know that. I think even most people in here would agree with me that age does not come into it!!! thank you!


Yes thats what I think.Just because we don't know what all ufo's are does not make them ET as default. There are plenty of people on this board that think they have TK. Doesn't make it true.

Edited by ericraven2003, 10 November 2006 - 07:10 PM.

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#216    contactismade

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:18 PM

Thanks Hazzard I really am invisible, thats nothing at all like what I posted. ph34r.gif


#217    Pax Unum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:31 PM

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Maybe. A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars. The bigger ones typically boast a megawatt of power, and are focused into beams that are a degree or two across. There are enough such radars that, at any given time, they cover a percent of the sky or so. The signal from the most powerful of these could be found at 50 light-years distance in a few minutes time with a receiving antenna 1,000 feet in diameter.

Indeed, these military radars are the only signals routinely transmitted from Earth that are intense enough to be detectable at interstellar distances with setups equivalent to our own SETI experiments.

do radar waves pass through matter?, I thought they bounced off... how much wave would make it past all the interstellar dust, circumplanetary dust, dust clouds around other stars, Comet dust, asteroidal dust, Kuiper belt dust, etc... just wondering


#218    badeskov

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:35 PM

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do radar waves pass through matter?, I thought they bounced off... how much wave would make it past all the interstellar dust, circumplanetary dust, dust clouds around other stars, Comet dust, asteroidal dust, Kuiper belt dust, etc... just wondering


They do pass through non-metallic (non-conductive) matter, although they will be attenuated. How much depends on the kind of matter they pass through, the density and overall thickness.

Metallic (or conductive) matter they will bounce off and be reflected back.

Best,
Badskov

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#219    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:45 PM

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Thanks Hazzard I really am invisible, thats nothing at all like what I posted.


Im sorry 'contactismade', Im not ignoring you on purpose. What was the post you made that your referring to? Ill do my best to answer, promise.

Edited by hazzard, 10 November 2006 - 07:49 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#220    contactismade

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:52 PM

Oh yeah, If they found us then the question was how. I could only support a theory that they are close enough to us that we would be found in a systematic search. If we're talking about logical beings here they might start a search for other intelligent life closer to home. We might be missing something in our neighbour hood. I just read somewhere that they found hundreds of galaxies in a cluster some where that were previously unknown, or something like that. Space is literally infinite, human knowledge is for the most part partial, and flawed in a lot of ways. We do not have all the eggs in the basket yet. I am having trouble with the distance part with relation to the time lapse since the first radio waves were broadcast. So the next best is something close, I think in order to believe they could get here at all you have to grant them an advanced propulsion system unknown to us yet.

Hazzard is this a sound thought at all?  what are the defective parts of this idea?
I invite your opinion gladly, you seem to have a rational manner, which is always good in these subjects.  Plus I just don't know, it sounds nice though.


#221    Pax Unum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:53 PM

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They do pass through non-metallic (non-conductive) matter, although they will be attenuated. How much depends on the kind of matter they pass through, the density and overall thickness.

Metallic (or conductive) matter they will bounce off and be reflected back.

Best,
Badskov

thanks, then Hazzard is right, and we should be looking for radar waves...  grin2.gif

but, you'd think something like radar would be a common navigational aid aboard a space craft, and used by many seperate races, shouldn't space be full of radar waves? just wondering


#222    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 08:18 PM

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thanks, then Hazzard is right, and we should be looking for radar waves...  grin2.gif



Thats not what I said, if your going to quote me then do it right! I said that "A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars".  For them.


I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#223    skyeagle409

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 08:40 PM

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Everybody calm down now........wait a minute what were we talking about?

Oh yeah, If they found us then the question was how.  I could only support a theory that they are close enough to us that we would be found in a systematic search.  If we're talking about logical beings here they might start a search for other intelligent life closer to home.  We might be missing something in our neighbour hood.  I just read somewhere that they found hundreds of galaxies in a cluster some where that were previously unknown, or something like that.  Space is literally infinite, human knowledge is for the most part partial, and flawed in a lot of ways.  We do not have all the eggs in the basket yet.  I am having trouble with the distance part with relation to the time lapse since the first radio waves were broadcast.  So the next best is something close, I think in order to believe they could get here at all you have to grant them an advanced propulsion system unknown to us yet.


I do not believe that radio or any other signal of mankind had anything to do at bringing attention of aliens to Earth and besides, aliens may communicate in ways and use devices that are totally unknown to us and beyond our wildest dreams, devices that don't rely on radio waves for transmitting or receiving. Aliens could have detected our solar system while studying our sun millions of years ago and decided to come and take a look. We have detected well over 100 planets already with our evolving technology that I believe is in its infancy in comparison to other advanced technologies much older than ours. Perhaps, aliens had another agenda long before mankind even appeared on Earth. And, aliens may not have an organization similar to  SETI and may not even be interested in a SETI-like setup at all. They may also be able to detect life on Earth by the characterisctics of its atmosphere. If we can measure the temperature of a planet that is thousands of ligth-years from Earth with our present technlogy, I have reason to believe that we can do the same as far as detecting life from such a distance with advanced technology a million years from now.

We send space probes to other planets and moons knowing they do not have metropolitan areas on their surfaces but we send probes there anyway, so intelligent  life on Earth may not have been a motive for ET to come here and visit in the first place. Perhaps, aliens had another agenda long before mankind appeared even on Earth,  after all, look what has been popping up over the years.

MODIFYING MARS

"In fact computational studies utilizing climate models suggest that it could be possible to make Mars habitable again with foreseeable technology."

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm

But, what we do know is that UFOs have been tracked coming in from deep space and in the vincinity of the moon, as noted by some astronomers, and beneath the oceans of  Earth. In fact, someone once said that we know more about the surface of the moon than we know what's beneath our own oceans and UFOs have been seen rising from the oceans around the globe as well.

I am sure the Navy knows what's going on beneath the waves but it is not talking. For some reason, submarines have bumped into things while submerged and that is not suppose to happen with the kind of devices that are normally carried aboard submarines and mariners throughout the centuries have reported UFOs rising from beneath the ocean waves, so what is most of the Earth's surface covered with? Water!

Edited by skyeagle409, 10 November 2006 - 08:50 PM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#224    Hazzard

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:12 PM

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Oh yeah, If they found us then the question was how.  


That is the million dollar question.

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If we're talking about logical beings here they might start a search for other intelligent life closer to home.  


Logical assumtion, yes.

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I just read somewhere that they found hundreds of galaxies in a cluster some where that were previously unknown, or something like that.  


Thats an understatement. http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/r...ormat/large_web

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Hazzard is this a sound thought at all?  what are the defective parts of this idea?
I invite your opinion gladly, you seem to have a rational manner, which is always good in these subjects.


From me to you'contactismade'.   What needs to be done regarding the various credulous hypotheses, and crack pot ideas that are all too common here, is to apply a good solid dose of critical reasoning.

-Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts.

-Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").

-Spin more than one hypothesis - dont simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.

-Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.

-If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.

-"Occams razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.

-Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result? If not then....well you know the rest..!



I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#225    Pax Unum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:53 PM

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Thats not what I said, if your going to quote me then do it right! I said that "A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars".  For them.

sorry, my bad...  grin2.gif





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