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How did they find us.!?


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#241    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:14 PM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 11 2006, 04:59 AM' post='1423112']
And how can they concur that it is not a natural phenomena? They can't say that.


Yes they can. For an example, radar "ghost angels" present only "soft targets" and do not react to radar lock-on, while "hard contacts" are those of metallic objects such as aircraft, which react in an intelligently controlled fashion on radar.

Quote

In 1996 one ultra-fast lightning phenomenon was discovered.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/...01215170015.htm


But, that can't explain UFO incidents such as this nor even come close.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

SAN CARLOS DE BARILOCHE 02/08 (AFP) = On Monday morning, around ten eye-witnesses reported that, moving at high velocity and defying all known laws of physics, a white flying saucer perturbed the air traffic at the San Carlos de Bariloche airport, located 1 800 km S-W of Buenos-Aires, during 15 minutes on Monday to Tuesday night.

The observation stated on Monday at 23:30 GMT (Tuesday 01H30 HB) while Aérolinas Argentinas flight 674, en route from Buenos Aires with 102 passengers and 3 crew members was on final approach to land on the runway of Bariloche airport, an in vogue winter resort located on the first slopes of the Andes.

"The pilot of the plane had to accomplish a desperate escape maneuver not to collide with an unidentified flying object (UFO)" said several members of the Argentine military air forces. These testimonies were confirmed by Major Jorge Oviedo himself who "also saw a UFO" and who stated that "a power failure occurred at the same time in the city and all recording and measure apparatus at the airport were jammed". Several inhabitants claimed they saw the UFO just before the power failure.

http://www.ufocom.org/UfocomS/usbariloche.htm

Quote

Another very interesting phenomenon is the high altitude 'sprites', which is also fairly recently discovered.

http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl9910.html

So pilots were seeing UFOs that have now been explained by a natural phenomenon. How can we tell that the current UFO sightings won't be explained by some other natural phenomenon that we don't know about yet? We can't.


Even that can't explain UFO incidents such as this  particular UFO incident either.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

1976 Iranian UFO Incident

"The 1976 Tehran UFO Incident was a radar and visual sighting of an unidentified flying object (UFO) over Tehran, the capital of Iran. The incident is particularly notable for the electromagnetic interference effects on aircraft near the UFO. Two F-4 jet interceptors independently lost instrumentation and communications as they approached, only to have these restored when they left. One F-4 also lost its weapons systems when it was about to fire on the object. The incident is well-documented in a U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report with a distribution list that included the White House, Secretary of State, Joint Chiefs of Staff, National Security Agency (NSA), and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Various high Iranian military officers directly involved with the events have also gone on public record stating their belief the object was an extraterrestrial craft."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_sightings_in_Iran

Iranian UFO Documents

http://www.nicap.org/iran25.htm

http://www.nicap.org/iran26.htm

http://www.nicap.org/iran27.htm

Iranian UFO Case File

http://www.cohenufo.org/iranafjet.html

http://www.ufocasebook.com/tehranpilot.html

http://www.ufocasebook.com/tehraniran.html


So in that regard, the Iranian UFO incident was clearly not the result of any natural phenomena.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 November 2006 - 05:20 PM.

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#242    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:40 PM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 11 2006, 04:59 AM' post='1423112']
Skyeagle,

Plenty of evidence for UFOs, not a shred of evidence for UFOs being of ET origin.


The data evidence is straight to the point that the ETH is the simplest explanation to the thousands of UFO reports on record.

Quote

If there indeed was a crash, which I certainly don't believe. Again, that is my opinion and here we can only air opinions as we have no evidence either way.


There have been UFO crashes and the U.S. Army recently confirmed the existence of the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit (IPU). It's mission was to recover downed UFOs and Project Moon Dust and Operation Blue Fly were used to facilitate the unit's recovery efforts. Eventually, the Air Force took over its operations.

Quote

They can only say that any known natural atmospheric phenomena could not account for it. Secondly, the only people in that bunch that could speak objectively on the matter would be the meteorologists, not the commercial and military pilots or radar controllers.


Meteorologist have also stated that incidents such as those that took  place in 1952 over Washington D.C., were not the result of natural atmospheric phenonmena and radar controllers can differentiate between natural phenomena and conventional objects on their radar screens. Pilots must also have knowledge of weather as well, after all we do fly in all types of whether around the clock and must use our knowledge to make a determination if conditions warrant a revised flight  plan.

Quote

Absolutely and utterly wrong! The military has no radar capabilities beyond cis-lunar orbit and that had nothing to do with deep space!


Believe me, we do have deep space surveillance capability.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

GEODSS

"The Ground-Based Electro-Optical Deep Space Surveillance (GEODSS) , which can track objects as small as a basketball more than 20,000 miles in space, play a vital role in tracking space objects, particularly those in deep space. Over 1,200 objects, including geostationary communications satellites, are in deep space more than 3,000 miles from earth."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

ASTRONOMERS AND THEIR UFO SIGHTINGS

"April 9th, 1867: 'Thos G.Elger reported to the Astronomical Register, that, in the English sky, he saw a dark part of the moon suddenly flame out with a light like a star of 7th magnitude. This was at 7.30 p.m. At 9.30 p.m., it faded out. "I have seen lights on the moon before, but never so clear as this." ' Various other observations of anomalous features on the moon also detailed. (FSOM)"

http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/Astronomers.htm

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 November 2006 - 05:51 PM.

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#243    rapid7

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:44 PM


The scientific method is not a recipe: it requires intelligence, imagination, and creativity. Further, it is an ongoing cycle, constantly developing more useful, accurate and comprehensive models and methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method


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There's a red light.

#244    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:48 PM

Quote

name='badeskov' date='Nov 11 2006, 04:59 AM' post='1423112']
That is assuming that it is a craft and not natural phenomena.


I think the information above pretty much summed it up that many UFO incidents were not the result of natural phenomena so now, we can continue to speculate as to why and how ET came in on the scene.

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#245    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:57 PM

Quote

name='hazzard' date='Nov 11 2006, 04:08 PM' post='1423461']
Nice Badeskov, and I agree with Lilly 100%on this.....  "The UFOs=ET space ships conclusion (at this point in time) requires a leap of faith, a leap that those of a scientific mind aren't willing to take."


I would't say that and I can use "Occam Razor" and show that the simplest explanation in the thousands of UFO reports is the ETH simply because it would have been totally impossible for conventional aircraft to mimic such maneuvers as recorded by the data evidence as documented by various agencies around the world.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 November 2006 - 05:58 PM.

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#246    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:57 PM

You are once again assuming ET. Other of us don't.

Sky, do you really think that if the government knows about this, they will admit it? No way. So unless a UFO is going to land on the lawn of the Whitehouse then this will always be speculation. Nothing more.

Edited by ericraven2003, 11 November 2006 - 05:58 PM.

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#247    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 06:18 PM

Quote

name='ericraven2003' post='1423538' date='Nov 11 2006, 05:57 PM']
You are once again assuming ET. Other of us don't.

name='ericraven2003' date='Nov 11 2006, 05:57 PM' post='1423538']
You are once again assuming ET. Other of us don't.


I do, because I understand what the data evidence is all about and what it issaying and so do many of my fellow pilots as well.

Quote

Sky, do you really think that if the government knows about this, they will admit it?


Not officially at this point but there are declassified government documents that have detailed actual UFO encounters and sightings and there have been those in various parts of the government, including senior military officers,  that have already gone public that UFOs are ET vehicles, not those of mankind. After all, the Air Force was telling us that UFOs were real while telling the public they were mirages caused by temperature inversion and then admitted in 1969, that it was impossible for mirages to have caused UFO incidents such as those that took place our Washington.

Quote

No way. So unless a UFO is going to land on the lawn of the Whitehouse then this will always be speculation. Nothing more.


I guess they were looking for the White House lawn in 1952.


UFOs Looking For the White House Lawn To Land On

http://www.ufocasebook.com/washingtondc1952.html

http://www.project1947.com/fig/1952d.htm

http://www.spartechsoftware.com/dimensions...OWashington.htm

http://www.world-action.co.uk/1952-1953.html

http://www.project1947.com/fig/1952a.htm

http://www.ufologie.net/htm/usa1952.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc892.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Invasion-Washington-...l/dp/0380814706

http://ufos.about.com/od/visualproofphotos...ashingtondc.htm

LIFE Magazine, August 4, 1952 pages 39-40

And microfilm at the local library of other major publication accounts in August and October 1952 that also documented the UFO incidents over Washington D.C. in July 1952.


I guess that ET needed a road map to find the  White House.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 November 2006 - 06:57 PM.

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#248    badeskov

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 07:41 PM

Sky,

Thanks for your thorough answer, but I am hard pressed for time today but simply had to address this one. I said:

Quote


Absolutely and utterly wrong! The military has no radar capabilities beyond cis-lunar orbit and that had nothing to do with deep space!


And you replied.

Quote


Believe me, we do have deep space surveillance capability.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

GEODSS

"The Ground-Based Electro-Optical Deep Space Surveillance (GEODSS) , which can track objects as small as a basketball more than 20,000 miles in space, play a vital role in tracking space objects, particularly those in deep space. Over 1,200 objects, including geostationary communications satellites, are in deep space more than 3,000 miles from earth."


I hate to be pedantic about this, but 20,000 miles has nothing to do with deep space. Outer space is normally considered to be what lies beyond the atmosphere of the Earth, whereas deep space is beyond the gravity of the Earth and beyond lunar orbit. So deep space has nothing to do with what is flitting around 20,000 miles out, but rather 200,000 miles out and here the military has to give up and let the civilians do the job. The military (US or others) have no means to probe this part of space sensibly and relies on the civilian programs, which in turn is mostly NOT looking for ET.

And this to me is one of the strongest indicators that the military (again, US or others)  neither possess any ET artifacts nor have ever positively identified a UFO as of ET origin or actually even had indications that it is so. Otherwise I would expect parabolic dishes to have had been erected on a massive scale to allow for a continuous surveillance effort beyond cis-lunar orbit. And that has not obviously not happened. Is there one thing the military would hate, it would be to be caught with their pants down, figuratively speaking, and let ET roam around freely when they could have detected him/her/it coming from far away.      

Best,
Badeskov


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#249    badeskov

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 07:46 PM

Quote


Nice Badeskov, and I agree with Lilly 100%on this.....  "The UFOs=ET space ships conclusion (at this point in time) requires a leap of faith, a leap that those of a scientific mind aren't willing to take."


Hazzard and Lilly, I think we can agree completely on this. It is simply too much of a leap going from the UFO to ET. There is nothing but indicators pointing in all directions, making it mighty hard to reach any conclusion whatsoever.  

Best,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 11 November 2006 - 07:47 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#250    the_UNKNOWN_DEAD

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 08:05 PM

Quote

...I can use "Occam Razor" and show that the simplest explanation in the thousands of UFO reports is the ETH simply because it would have been totally impossible for conventional aircraft to mimic such maneuvers as recorded by the data evidence as documented by various agencies around the world.


Why have you constrained your argument to 2 possibilities, only?? You assume that if it isn't a conventional aircraft, then it MUST be an alien spacecraft...there are obviously other possibilities that you have consciously chosen to ignore.

The simplest explanation, (if observers think they have seen an alien spacecraft), is that they are mistaken, given the total lack of actual solid evidence that aliens even exist.

So the question becomes why have you chosen to ignore what is really the "simplest explanation"???





#251    Hazzard

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 09:28 PM

Quote


Why have you constrained your argument to 2 possibilities, only?? You assume that if it isn't a conventional aircraft, then it MUST be an alien spacecraft...there are obviously other possibilities that you have consciously chosen to ignore.

The simplest explanation, (if observers think they have seen an alien spacecraft), is that they are mistaken, given the total lack of actual solid evidence that aliens even exist.

So the question becomes why have you chosen to ignore what is really the "simplest explanation"???



Excellent observations UNKNOWN DEAD! So, in the end, where does this leave us? As I was thinking about SETI and our "radio signature bubble" reaching out in to space, I can only think of these few possibilities.   unsure.gif

- Either the aliens has already found us and has answered back (the message is on its way?)

- They are ignoring us for some reason.

- They are less technologically advanced than we are (hasnt looked yet).

- ET simply doesnt exist... Not very satisfying I know, and there is no way to really know which choice is more likely correct!

Edited by hazzard, 11 November 2006 - 09:31 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#252    badeskov

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 09:37 PM

Quote


Yes they can. For an example, radar "ghost angels" present only "soft targets" and do not react to radar lock-on, while "hard contacts" are those of metallic objects such as aircraft, which react in an intelligently controlled fashion on radar.


OK, I am sorry, but I lost your logic in this argument. A "soft target" is normally a name used when a target for some military strike is civilian. I have a hard time applying that to a radar target, but please do enlighten me if I missed something.

Any target is defined by it's radar cross section, i.e. how much radar energy it reflects back toward the emitting radar. That is neither hard nor soft, it is simply a fraction. Some targets have very high radar cross section (B-52 bomber) and some have very small (B2 bomber). And some weather phenomena have it as well.

And how can we tell whether a target reacts intelligently to radar lock-on, unless said target literally lands at the radar site and tell the people there to turn the radar off and otherwise leave them alone? We can see something moving, but we do not know what it is. And in my point of view we shouldn't begin to try and predict how ET would react.

Best,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 11 November 2006 - 10:19 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#253    badeskov

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 09:50 PM

I think that sums it up very well, Hazzard.

Quote


Excellent observations UNKNOWN DEAD! So, in the end, where does this leave us? As I was thinking about SETI and our "radio signature bubble" reaching out in to space, I can only think of these few possibilities.   unsure.gif


I don't know if you saw my earlier post on detecting the military radars, but even with a really good receiver in the ET end, they will be hard pressed to detect us from farther away than a couple of hundred light years. That is, if we had been emitting radio waves for that long. We have really only been broadcasting for the last 50 years, which obviously limits the range to 50 light years original.gif  

Quote


- Either the aliens has already found us and has answered back (the message is on its way?)


Check is in the mail?!? wink2.gif Obviously we can't tell yet.

Quote


- They are ignoring us for some reason.


How rude! But also perfect understandable wink2.gif

Quote


- They are less technologically advanced than we are (hasnt looked yet).


Could be. And again, no way to tell.

Quote


- ET simply doesnt exist... Not very satisfying I know, and there is no way to really know which choice is more likely correct!


I find that unlikely, but again we can't tell.

And the last option, if I may add:

- ET is highly advanced, but hasn't found us yet as they are way outside of our "radio bubble".

Best,
Badeskov

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#254    Hazzard

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 10:20 PM

Quote



And the last option, if I may add:

- ET is highly advanced, but hasn't found us yet as they are way outside of our "radio bubble".

Best,
Badeskov



Yep.

There is also the -"You, not someone els, YOU winning the next week lottery" theory. They were just lucky. That is not my favorite.


In any event, I think that we will run into alien bacteria long before we ever get intelligent aliens on the line.


I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#255    badeskov

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 10:32 PM

Quote


Yep.

There is also the -"You, not someone els, YOU winning the next week lottery" theory. They were just lucky. That is not my favorite.
In any event, I think that we will run into alien bacteria long before we ever get intelligent aliens on the line.


I am not too fond of the luck theory either, but I can't discount it. There is always a chance, however slim it might be.

I agree with the alien bacteria is probably the first encounter we will have. And maybe we already have, as who knows what is hiding in those tonnes of dust that rains down on us from space every day? I believe there is a theory that it might actually contain bacteria, although I haven't heard anything about it in quite a while.

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.




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