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How did they find us.!?


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#31    badeskov

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:36 AM

Quote


http://www.atsnn.com/article/230024

www.timesonline.co.uk
200,000 years for all trace of Man to vanish from the Earth
By Lewis Smith

Within hours, nature would begin to eradicate its impact. In 50,000 years all that would remain would be archaeological traces. Only radioactive materials and a few man-made chemical contaminants would last longer — an invisible legacy.

Homo sapiens has managed just 150,000 years on Earth, and his earliest — debatable — ancestor only six million. By contrast, the dinosaurs populated the planet for 165 million years.

Man’s environmental footprint would, according to a report in New Scientist, begin to deteriorate almost immediately, with light pollution the first to go as power stations ceased to provide energy.


I looked a little around as I admittedly was a little skeptical regarding the given time line. Whether we like it or not we are leaving quite an impression on earth. Given that we (and earlier civilizations,  if ever present on earth) have built quite impressive and durable population centers, I was a little surprised to see that the expected most brick/concrete buildings to be gone after only a 1000 years. Especially as there has been found quite a few well preserved stone age villages (up to roughly 10,000 years).    

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/662794.stm

Basically it is what is believed to be the oldest building as yet discovered, and it is dated back about 500,000 years. I would therefore contend that much more numerous and durable structures definitely would leave a trace behind, probably for quite a while.

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Badeskov

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#32    Leonardo

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:26 AM

Badeskov,

I tend to agree that the article mentioned leaves a very wide margin for error, however modern construction material are composites rather than the solid stone used in ancient building. These would decay much more rapidly.

The OP raises an interesting point. If you discount the 'Earth origin' for an intelligent alien species it would seem the chance of them knowing about us relies almost entirely in an accidental discovery (whether ancient or modern).

Of course they could have advanced techniques for discerning solar systems and planets likely to have life from very large interstellar distance but getting here is still problematic.

As far as wormholes and faster-than-light travel goes, I found this article quite interesting. FTL travel etc is theoretically possible (even time-travel) and if the alien race has the capability of such technology I see no reason to dismiss the possibility they are visiting.

Maybe we are not alone  dontgetit.gif

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#33    Hazzard

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:35 AM

We dont know much about the average lifetime of technological societies, other than the fact that ours has, so far, managed to survive for a century. We also dont know at what rate sentient societies spring up in the Galaxy. But we do know that this rate is surely tied to the frequency with which stars are born. Clearly, a greater flux of new stars will ultimately produce a larger number of planets with thinking beings.

What is the star formation rate? Well, there are roughly 200 billion stars in the Milky Way, and that means that the average rate over the last 13 billion years has been about 15 new stars per year.  Anyone whos used a radio telescope to study galaxies knows that when you examine a big spiral like the Milky Way, you find that the total amount of interstellar gas is typically a few percent of the mass of all the stars. Since interstellar gas is the stuff from which stars are built, its obvious that theres little material around today for constructing new ones. Clearly, this must affect the number members for our club of intelligent beings. And not to the possitive.



And about this "cover up" mentality. It is dismaying that many people assume proof that were not alone would cause governments to cover up the facts.

Consider the 1938 radio broadcast of War of the Worlds. Some Americans mistook the fictional Martian invasion for news, and fled their homes. Would a real discovery of extraterrestrials occasion a breakdown in public order?

This seems highly unlikely. Picking up a signal from space is different from watching aggressive aliens land in the pastures. Its difficult to imagine galactic beings would ever charge across the dark deserts between the stars merely to harass the inhabitants of a small planet.

To detect a signal from other worlds would be wondrous. It would show that the appearance of life on this world and its slow, uncertain path to us - creatures that can comprehend their own existence - is not some improbable miracle, but a frequent occurrence.

In the 17th century, when early telescopes were revealing great clouds of stars, French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal wrote that the enormity of space terrified him. Space is enormous. To learn that others are out there would be a comfort.



I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#34    adamflownemo

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:51 PM

In 1974 we sent a message to the M13 star cluster  and YES recieved messages back from ET

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/521666.stm

pictures and message recieved and links
all in here   http://blog.myspace.com/111908738  about half way down blog

peace



#35    badeskov

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:44 PM

Leonardo,

Thanks a lot for your very elaborate answer.

Quote


I tend to agree that the article mentioned leaves a very wide margin for error, however modern construction material are composites rather than the solid stone used in ancient building. These would decay much more rapidly.


I would definitely agree with you in the sense that a great part of the materials we use are composite and will not last for that long. But I would also argue that some materials are indeed very durable and should prevail. I am not a materials physicist and I don't really have a basis for my claims, which I will readily out up front. Maybe we somebody with some knowledge in the field that could chip in on this matter?  

Quote


The OP raises an interesting point. If you discount the 'Earth origin' for an intelligent alien species it would seem the chance of them knowing about us relies almost entirely in an accidental discovery (whether ancient or modern).

Of course they could have advanced techniques for discerning solar systems and planets likely to have life from very large interstellar distance but getting here is still problematic.


Yes, if we have actually been found by intelligent extraterrestrial life, then the options are kind of limited to radio detection, accidental discovery or a determined exploration of planets orbiting their sun in the habitable zone. But while I am not convinced that we have been found yet, is does seed the ground for some good discussions original.gif

Quote


As far as wormholes and faster-than-light travel goes, I found this article quite interesting. FTL travel etc is theoretically possible (even time-travel) and if the alien race has the capability of such technology I see no reason to dismiss the possibility they are visiting.

Maybe we are not alone  dontgetit.gif


Thanks for the article, which is very interesting. I would not discard the possibility of FTL travel just yet either, although I must say that Einstein's theories have proven remarkably resilient in denying us the option. And while wormholes theoretically could give us the option making our own "tunnels" through space, the negative energy require so far seems to have some adverse effects that hitherto have negated it. But maybe we can come around that, who knows?  blush.gif  

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#36    badeskov

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:49 PM

hazzard,

very good post. Factual, logical and to the bone.

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#37    badeskov

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:58 PM

Quote


In 1974 we sent a message to the M13 star cluster  and YES recieved messages back from ET

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/521666.stm

pictures and message recieved and links
all in here   http://blog.myspace.com/111908738  about half way down blog

peace


Uhm, excuse me? We sent a 3 minute long signal to M13 and it still has about 12,975 years left of it's journey. So it is certainly not from M13 ET sent back his message. ET must have been at the most 12 light years away.

That leaves two options:

1) The signal passed by a planet inhabited by said ET race
2) ET was steaming along in his interstellar craft and happened to pass through the signal we sent

The latter seems very unlikely to me, but it might happen. The former seems even more unlikely. Given that this world will have to be within 12 light years of us, the number of stars are rather limited and they have most certainly all been the target for us listening in on their radio broadcasts, if there were any.

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#38    skyeagle409

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 11:15 PM

Quote

name='hazzard' date='Oct 30 2006, 10:35 AM' post='1409824']
And about this "cover up" mentality. It is dismaying that many people assume proof that were not alone would cause governments to cover up the facts.


Actually, there is a government cover-up on UFOs. The Roswell incident is one case of many and the Washington D.C. incidents were another. The Air Force knew full well that temperature inversion was not responsible for the UFOs and sought to cover-up those incidents by trying to explain away the UFOs as mirages caused by temperature inversion, when scientific studies have shown that is impossible and in 1969, the Air Force added to that fact in it's own scientific study.

In the Roswell case, the Air Force claimed that a Mogul balloon train #4 was responsible for the Roswell incident after they admitted that no weather balloon was responsible and that, after telling the public for 47 years that it was a weather balloon, yet in Project Mogul's own flight records, it shows that Project Mogul balloon train #4 was actually cancelled and NEVER flown and that is why there are no flight  records pertaining to  Mogul balloon train #4 and the Air Force knew that Mogul balloon train #4 was cancelled because it sought to cover-up that incident as well.

In 1997, the Air Force claimed that the Roswell alien bodies that people saw in 1947, were test dummies of the 1950's and accident victims of 1956 and 1959. Perhaps, the Air Force has a time machine they never told us about. The government cover-up is written all over the wall and all it takes are eyes of an open mind to read it what's written on that wall.


Quote

Consider the 1938 radio broadcast of War of the Worlds. Some Americans mistook the fictional Martian invasion for news, and fled their homes. Would a real discovery of extraterrestrials occasion a breakdown in public order?


There was a panic in 1938 but only because the public thought that it was under an alien attack.

Edited by skyeagle409, 31 October 2006 - 01:03 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#39    Unlimited

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 11:54 PM

Quote


Actually, there is a government cover-up on UFOs. The Roswell incident is one case of many and the Washington D.C. incidents were another. The Air Force knew full well that temperature inversion was not responsible for the UFOs and sought to cover-up those incidents by trying to explain away the UFOs as mirages caused by temperature inversion, when scientific studies have shown that is impossible and in 1969, the Air Force added to that fact in it's own scientific study.

In the Roswell case, the Air Force claimed that a Mogul balloon train #4 was responsible for the Roswell incident after they admitted that no weather balloon was responsible and that, after telling the public for 47 years that it was a weather balloon, yet in Project Mogul's own flight records, it shows that Project Mogul balloon train #4 was actually cancelled and NEVER flown and that is why there are no flight  records pertaining to  Mogul balloon train #4 and the Air Force knew that Mogul balloon train #4 was cancelled because it sought to cover-up that incident as well.

In 1997, the Air Force claimed the the Roswell alien bodies that people saw in 1947, were test dummies of the 1950's and accident victims of 1956 and 1959. Perhaps, the Air Force has a time machine they never told us about. The government cover-up is written all over the wall and all it takes are eyes of an open mind to read it what's written on that wall.
There was a panic in 1938 but only because the public thought that it was under an alien attack.

oh no he opened up the roswell can of worms...of course theirs a cover-up hazzard just doesnt wanna believe it.

God Bless America..

"one man with courage,makes a majority"..tj

#40    skyeagle409

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 01:52 AM

Quote

name='limited' date='Oct 30 2006, 11:54 PM' post='1410503']
oh no he opened up the roswell can of worms...of course theirs a cover-up hazzard just doesnt wanna believe it.


As far as the UFO cover-up is concerned, the government ran out of UFO cover-up paint a long time ago.

Another UFO incident that was covered up by the U.S. government was the 1976 Iranian UFO incident but after that famous 1978 lawsuit, the Iranian UFO incident was finally revealed. I believe that if it weren't for that lawsuit it would probably have been years before the public found out about it and as it was, the incident was confirmed by the Iranian government  as well.

Over the years, we have found other planets outside our solar system but to alien beings who are technologically millions of years more advanced than mankind, I am very sure that they would not only have the means to detect life on other planets from far away but also have the means to visit those planets as well. It seems that there are those who seem to think that technology won't change much in another thousand years despite the fact we have come a long way since the 1950's.

Eventually, if mankind is still around, we will eventually have no choice but to leave Earth and look for a new home in the universe because the Sun will not last forever and since our Sun is only a middle-aged star, simply means that there could be millions or even billions of other solar systems that are millions of years older than ours and whose solar systems were destroyed by the death of their own suns. I am sure that any advanced civilization that is millions of years more advanced than mankind, would have already embarked upon a journey to look for another home in the cosmos if their home planet was in danger of being swallowed up by their expanding sun or by a 'Black Hole.'  In other words, the universe could be filled with alien refugees scouting for new homes

If mankind knew that a 'Black Hole' was heading for Earth and was to arrive in about 1000 years from now, I am very sure that mankind would not sit around and wait to be exterminated by that "Black Hole" and instead would map out ways to build gigantic "Motherships" and look for new real estate somewhere in space because  we wouldn't have any other option if we wanted to survive and this senario could have repeated itself toward many alien civilizations that are much older than mankind, probably a thousand or even a million times already.

So the question is, why are they here? There could be many reasons why there are here and one must not assume that alien beings must always think in ways that we do.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#41    Hazzard

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 05:01 AM

Quote


oh no he opened up the roswell can of worms...of course theirs a cover-up hazzard just doesnt wanna believe it.



laugh.gif   thumbsup.gif

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#42    morrison1976

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 06:15 AM

Quote

There is only one way that they can tell from interstellar distance that intelligent creatures inhabit this planet....RADIO. Our radio signals travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens cant be much farther off than 15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947,(Rosswell). The number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen stars. Thats optimism of a high level indeed


God! there is no point looking at this with are technology. We don't have a clue where they are when it comes to technology, its as simole as that. You dont know where they are for a start. They could be closer than you think, and im sure, with there technology, they would have ways to be seen and not be seen.


Quote

What about warp drive? Lightspeed? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and get here in essentially no time?

It doesnt matter. Ill worry about how they got here once Im convinced that theyve really made the scene.


Again! We don't know!!!!!!


Quote

While I certainly expect that the Galaxy is home to many advanced societies, the quality of the evidence has so far failed to convince me that any of them have emissaries on our planet.


Yeah, well it would help if you look at the credible cases like rendleshem forest, but that will never happen. Someone puts a photo or video on here and the de-bunkers will jump on it if they think they know what it is. If they know know, then they just leave it well alone. It is so one sided its shocking!!!!!


Quote

Your points reflect my thoughts exactly. I would find myself extremely self-centric if I said that there are no other intelligent civilizations out there; I am convinced there are many


Funny you should say that badeskov. I remember me and you having a disscussion and you saying you thought there was little intelligent life, if not any in the universe, whats with the change of opinion??  






#43    Hazzard

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 09:19 AM

I have no problem with the existance of UFOs, I just dont believe that they are ETI on a visit.

Let me put it like this, when the existance of extraterrestrials becomes science fact insted of science fiction,when accepted world wide by scientists and tought in schools all over the world, thats when.

Im sick of eye-witness testimony, they mean NOTHING in the world of scientific proof, like I said before, there has been so many hoaxes and liers over the years so to be taken serious, about something of this importance, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists all over the world, a scraping of the whole object / alien spaceship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that arent present on earth, chemical elements form the so-called island of stability*, very heavy elements that dont exist on earth. Or materials of absolutely bizarre properties that dont exist in this star system.

There are many things that would instantly give serious credence to an account. So far I havent seen any, any at all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability

Edited by hazzard, 04 November 2006 - 09:27 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#44    morrison1976

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 09:47 AM

Ok.Well i know that we do need scientific proof, we all know that. But in the scientific world, the subject is not taken seriously. And thats a fact!! I can name a number of ufo cases where people did not want to touch a certain case because they feared for there job. Thats the kind of world we live in. I can understand what you are saying, like i said before, we all want that piece of evidence, But there is a much bigger and sinister picture than that. There are a number of cases that should be looked at, but they simply aren't, whos fault is that? its got nothing to do with the case being unreliable, its to do with people not wanting to touch it through fear of being ridiculed. You talk about witnesses, i feel, for me that this could be the most important role, esp with alot of government, nasa , fbi.ect people coming forward. Yes i know that some might be lying, but i dont believe they all are, i have a bit more faith in the human race to just cast aside 500 witnesses as  mad, attention seekers etc. There are still many photos, movies and very credible witnesses and cases that stay unsolved, so what are they??? again, some might turn out to be hoaxed, some might not. Now we have buzz alderin come forward and say he and the other A 11 crew saw a strange object following them, why say nothing at the time, nasa told them not to mention it . Could be junk, but it might not be junk, and maybe he will say more about it, we all hope.  So how many other times has this happened in space? how many more astonauts have seen objects in space and been told to say nothing? we know that a few have come forward and said that a few objects were seen in space, even taking photos, which have mysteriously disappeared. There is alot of crap out there, i say 98% is crap, but there is def something going on, and it's not so hard to see, if you look hard enough.


#45    Hazzard

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 10:06 AM

Quote


Ok. Well i know that we do need scientific proof, we all know that. But in the scientific world, the subject is not taken seriously.


Yes we do. Sure, rather few "real" scientific researchers have themselves gone into the field to sift through all the stories, the videos, and the odd photos that comprise the evidence for alien presence. But they dont have to. This complaint is like telling movie critics that films would be better if only they would pitch in and get behind the camera. But critics can compose excellent and accurate evaluations of a movie without being participants in the business of making films.

And about the "cover up" angle,are you saying that the material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government?

While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (its like saying “we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it”), it implies that EVERY government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval, and stamped with the top seceret blob, of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.  wacko.gif

Edited by hazzard, 04 November 2006 - 10:16 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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