Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * - 4 votes

How did they find us.!?


  • Please log in to reply
1669 replies to this topic

#481    Pax Unum

Pax Unum

    < 420 Conspirator >

  • Member
  • 18,696 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Suburbia

  • "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

Posted 18 November 2006 - 04:29 PM

Quote

As the general consensus builds among scientist that human activity has altered Earths atmosphere by inputting carbon dioxide as well as gases like Freon, could we identify the spectral fingerprints of those byproducts on other worlds?

I had a thought along these lines, the trouble is gases like carbon dioxide are also natural (volcanism), finding manufactured gases like 'I think' freon would be interesting...


#482    Pax Unum

Pax Unum

    < 420 Conspirator >

  • Member
  • 18,696 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Suburbia

  • "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

Posted 18 November 2006 - 04:36 PM

Quote


Actually, some other thought has come up. I am no biologist and my knowledge hereof is at best mediocre, so please excuse my ignorance. But why does life have to be oxygen based?

Best,
Badeskov

like hazzard say's

Quote

It doesnt. The first life on Earth was anaerobic bacteria - bacteria that could live without oxygen. These bacteria pumped large amounts of methane into our planets atmosphere, changing it in detectable ways.

but for the sake of argument, since we are talking about ET's finding Earth. I'd think the oxygen would be a major indicator of life... IMO


#483    Lilly

Lilly

    Forum Divinity

  • 15,385 posts
  • Joined:16 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Female

  • "To thine own self be true" William Shakespeare

Posted 18 November 2006 - 05:01 PM

Since we really only know about carbon based life, it's logical that we would be looking for markers of similar life...but who really knows what's possible.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

"All that live must die, passing through nature into eternity" ~Shakespeare~ Posted Image

#484    Hazzard

Hazzard

    Stellar Black Hole

  • Member
  • 11,757 posts
  • Joined:25 Aug 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Inside Voyager 1.

  • Being skeptical of the paranormal is a good thing.

Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:01 PM

Quote


Since we really only know about carbon based life, it's logical that we would be looking for markers of similar life...but who really knows what's possible.


True. Is carbon really so special, or did it just get lucky here on Earth?

If you have a periodic table handy, youll note that the element situated under carbon is silicon, which also has four electrons in its outer shell. Ergo, silicon might also seem to be an obvious basis for life, a point that was first made at the end of the nineteenth century by the German astrophysicist, Julius Scheiner.

But his sunny attitude was misplaced when it comes to silicon-based beings. Silicon may be carbons chemical cousin, but its a poor relation. Because the silicon atom is larger, its bonds with other elements are weaker. While carbon hooks up with two oxygen atoms to make carbon dioxide, a nice waste product for both humans and SUVs, the silicon equivalent, silicon dioxide, quickly assembles itself into a crystalline lattice. Its better known as sand, and would make exhaling a gritty experience.

If thats not enough to dissuade anyone from silicon, consider this, theres just a lot more carbon around. Cooked up in the searing interiors of stars, the cosmic abundance of carbon is more than ten times that of silicon.

Of course, one must always beware of hubris in speculating on the properties of extraterrestrial life. Earth is just one planet among many billions in our galaxy.


I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#485    Chris.B

Chris.B

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 125 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2006

Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:08 PM

Quote


thanks, but I just had a thought. wouldn't it be the oxygen that set's off ET 'LIFE" alerts? H2O is fairly common in asteroids and the supposed Oort cloud is ice, right? and isn't Callisto ice maybe over liquid water? Oxygen is produced by plants during photosynthesis, wouldn't that guarantee theres some kind life if it's found?...


Well, the theory goes that anywhere there is H2O is capable of supporting life, but I imagine the conditions will create very different life forms than that on Earth.


#486    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:02 PM

Quote


True. Is carbon really so special, or did it just get lucky here on Earth?

If you have a periodic table handy, youll note that the element situated under carbon is silicon, which also has four electrons in its outer shell. Ergo, silicon might also seem to be an obvious basis for life, a point that was first made at the end of the nineteenth century by the German astrophysicist, Julius Scheiner.

But his sunny attitude was misplaced when it comes to silicon-based beings. Silicon may be carbons chemical cousin, but its a poor relation. Because the silicon atom is larger, its bonds with other elements are weaker. While carbon hooks up with two oxygen atoms to make carbon dioxide, a nice waste product for both humans and SUVs, the silicon equivalent, silicon dioxide, quickly assembles itself into a crystalline lattice. Its better known as sand, and would make exhaling a gritty experience.

If thats not enough to dissuade anyone from silicon, consider this, theres just a lot more carbon around. Cooked up in the searing interiors of stars, the cosmic abundance of carbon is more than ten times that of silicon.

Of course, one must always beware of hubris in speculating on the properties of extraterrestrial life. Earth is just one planet among many billions in our galaxy.


Thanks for the thorough explanation, Hazzard. I was wondering whether some other atom but carbon could be the basis for life and from what you said it could, but it would be highly unlikely. Is that correctly understood?

Best,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 18 November 2006 - 09:02 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#487    Hazzard

Hazzard

    Stellar Black Hole

  • Member
  • 11,757 posts
  • Joined:25 Aug 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Inside Voyager 1.

  • Being skeptical of the paranormal is a good thing.

Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:28 PM

cool.gif --><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chris.B @ Nov 18 2006, 08:08 PM) View Post</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Well, the theory goes that anywhere there is H2O is capable of supporting life, but I imagine the conditions will create very different life forms than that on Earth.
[/quote]

I agree. Carbon is the most likely source of organic material on most planets due to the ease at which it is formed during planet formation and its readiness to form complex and predictable molecules. Given that carbon is likely, so are the rest of the necessary molecules such as hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It can be noted that all the molecules of life are also the most abundant in the atmosphere in which we live.

Life is probable on stable planets with an atmosphere that contain these chemicals. It will, just like life on this planet, evolve to use the most efficient methods possible for its own reproduction. Life on Earth, over millions of years, has sought to do the same thing. We can draw the conclusion that as nearly all higher cells use similar methods that these reactions may be the most efficient way of fuelling carbon-based life forms cycles. Therefore it seems that similar metabolic paths will exist in alien life as in ours, similar sugars could be used. Similar excretion could exist, as will a similar food chain.

I think you can expect that there will be predators out there. Predation is an economic device, carnivores leave it to plants or plant eaters to slowly build up energy-rich molecules from sunlight or some other source. They then harvest this crop of useful compounds quickly.

Science fiction has presented nearly all examples in some form or other. John Wyndham writes of living planets, early Star Trek episodes contained gaseous and electronic life in various forms, and multiple films contain psychic life of unknown mediums interacting with Humanity in some way. Alien life could be extremely different, unrecognizable. We might be as invisible to it as it is to us. Bacteria do not know what they grow in, yet we know of bacteria.

On the other hand, life could indeed be quite similar to what we see here on Earth. It wont have evolved the same species or phenotypes but I think we can expect 4-legged animals, birds, fish, etc, the same basic classes that we have on Earth.





Quote


Thanks for the thorough explanation, Hazzard. I was wondering whether some other atom but carbon could be the basis for life and from what you said it could, but it would be highly unlikely. Is that correctly understood?



thumbsup.gif

Edited by hazzard, 19 November 2006 - 10:01 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#488    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 19 November 2006 - 07:07 AM

Quote


cool.gif--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chris.B @ Nov 18 2006, 08:08 PM) View Post</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Well, the theory goes that anywhere there is H2O is capable of supporting life, but I imagine the conditions will create very different life forms than that on Earth.
I agree. Carbon is the most likely source of organic material on most planets due to the ease at which it is formed during planet formation and its readiness to form complex and predictable molecules. Given that carbon is likely, so are the rest of the necessary molecules such as hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It can be noted that all the molecules of life are also the most abundant in the atmosphere in which we live.

Life is probable on stable planets with an atmosphere that contain these chemicals. It will, just like life on this planet, evolve to use the most efficient methods possible for its own reproduction. Life on Earth, over millions of years, has sought to do the same thing. We can draw the conclusion that as nearly all higher cells use similar methods that these reactions may be the most efficient way of fuelling carbon-based life forms cycles. Therefore it seems that similar metabolic paths will exist in alien life as in ours, similar sugars could be used. Similar excretion could exist, as will a similar food chain.

I think you can expect that there will be predators out there. Predation is an economic device, carnivores leave it to plants or plant eaters to slowly build up energy-rich molecules from sunlight or some other source. They then harvest this crop of useful compounds quickly.

Science fiction has presented nearly all examples in some form or other. John Wyndham writes of living planets, early Star Trek episodes contained gaseous and electronic life in various forms, and multiple films contain psychic life of unknown mediums interacting with Humanity in some way. Alien life could be extremely different, unrecognizable. We might be as invisible to it as it is to us. Bacteria do not know what they grow in, yet we know of bacteria.

On the other hand, life could indeed be quite similar to what we see here on Earth. It wont have evolved the same species or phenotypes but I think we can expect 4-legged animals, birds, fish, etc, the same basic classes that we have on Earth.


Again hazzard, thanks a lot for the thorough explanation! Admittedly, my mental attendance in my biology classes was rather limited, so this was very educational!  thumbsup.gif  

Best,
Badeskov


"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#489    Hazzard

Hazzard

    Stellar Black Hole

  • Member
  • 11,757 posts
  • Joined:25 Aug 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Inside Voyager 1.

  • Being skeptical of the paranormal is a good thing.

Posted 19 November 2006 - 01:26 PM

Quote


Moreover, the planet could be thousands of light years away (yeah, I am assuming that we or ET have developed very advanced technology for this), but that also means that we are measuring what happened thousands of years ago!



Exactly!  This is why I named this thread "how did they find us". If biology is common in the galaxy, then Earth might be just another entry in a long list of "living worlds", its discovery might not excite the extraterrestrials very much.

And like you said, at thousands of lightyears away there is no way they could know that intelligent creatures on the third planet have split the atom or are taking their first little step into space, as they would be looking at the Earth atmosphere conditions and the way it was thousands of years ago.

Edited by hazzard, 19 November 2006 - 05:13 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#490    Radian

Radian

    Καρδιά ενός &a

  • Member
  • 8,002 posts
  • Joined:13 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Καρδιά ενός δράκου

  • Καρδιά ενός δράκου

Posted 19 November 2006 - 08:33 PM

Quote


Exactly!  This is why I named this thread "how did they find us". If biology is common in the galaxy, then Earth might be just another entry in a long list of "living worlds", its discovery might not excite the extraterrestrials very much.

And like you said, at thousands of lightyears away there is no way they could know that intelligent creatures on the third planet have split the atom or are taking their first little step into space, as they would be looking at the Earth atmosphere conditions and the way it was thousands of years ago.


  The only exception for them to know, from what I can understand, would be if it took ETs merely seconds to travel thousands of light years---  does (this) makes sense? unsure.gif

Edited by Sunny98, 19 November 2006 - 08:47 PM.

Posted Image <-- my attack bee

#491    Hazzard

Hazzard

    Stellar Black Hole

  • Member
  • 11,757 posts
  • Joined:25 Aug 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Inside Voyager 1.

  • Being skeptical of the paranormal is a good thing.

Posted 19 November 2006 - 08:48 PM

Quote


LOL!! Good point Hazzard. The only exception, from what I can understand, would be if it took ETs merely seconds to travel a thousands of light years---  



To get here, even if it only took them a nanosecond,  first they have to find us among all the other 400 billion(!!) stars in the galaxy. There would have to be 10 billion technically sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable chance of finding one camped out among the nearest stars. Thats optimism of a high level indeed.

How  they got here is, to me,  secondary, Ill worry about that once Im convinced that they are really here.

Edited by hazzard, 19 November 2006 - 08:54 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#492    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:09 PM

Quote


To get here, even if it only took them a nanosecond,  first they have to find us among all the other 400 billion(!!) stars in the galaxy. There would have to be 10 billion technically sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable chance of finding one camped out among the nearest stars. Thats optimism of a high level indeed.


It is a very high level of optimism, for sure. But the fact is that nobody knows and in my opinion we have the list of ways they can find us; and we probably won't find how or if they found us at all unless they literally make contact and tell us.

Quote


How  they got here is, to me,  secondary, Ill worry about that once Im convinced that they are really here.


When that time comes, we'll make a new thread "Exotic vacation destinations and how to get there" original.gif

Best,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 19 November 2006 - 09:09 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#493    Radian

Radian

    Καρδιά ενός &a

  • Member
  • 8,002 posts
  • Joined:13 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Καρδιά ενός δράκου

  • Καρδιά ενός δράκου

Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:13 PM

Quote


when your scouting planets; waters the first thing you look for to determine if their is life or not...the human body is mostly water..


First off, I failed biology! and this sounds insane but,
  The "human body is mostly water" YES! ... Everyone seems to assume that all life forms need water-- those on earth need water- .. but aren't be being somewhat egotistical or narrow-minded by assuming such things of possible life forms in other galaxies? How do we REALLLLLY know they are not made of ... a rock, or something like that?  How do we know that planet(s) with other life doesn't need components for the existence of life, like......... fire?   Or something we can't even comprehend as a (human) race?

They may just be looking at our volcanos, it would be the same as a water fountain to us.

Posted Image <-- my attack bee

#494    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:21 PM

Quote


First off, I failed biology! and this sounds insane but,
  The "human body is mostly water" YES! ... Everyone seems to assume that all life forms need water-- those on earth need water- .. but aren't be being somewhat egotistical or narrow-minded by assuming such things of possible life forms in other galaxies? How do we REALLLLLY know they are not made of ... a rock, or something like that?  How do we know that planet(s) with other life doesn't need components for the existence of life, like......... fire?   Or something we can't even comprehend as a (human) race?

They may just be looking at our volcanos, it would be the same as a water fountain to us.


Hehe, my knowledge of biology is at best mediocre, so I posed the same question a little while back and I think Hazzard put it very well:

Quote


cool.gif --><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chris.B @ Nov 18 2006, 08:08 PM) View Post</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Well, the theory goes that anywhere there is H2O is capable of supporting life, but I imagine the conditions will create very different life forms than that on Earth.
I agree. Carbon is the most likely source of organic material on most planets due to the ease at which it is formed during planet formation and its readiness to form complex and predictable molecules. Given that carbon is likely, so are the rest of the necessary molecules such as hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It can be noted that all the molecules of life are also the most abundant in the atmosphere in which we live.

Life is probable on stable planets with an atmosphere that contain these chemicals. It will, just like life on this planet, evolve to use the most efficient methods possible for its own reproduction. Life on Earth, over millions of years, has sought to do the same thing. We can draw the conclusion that as nearly all higher cells use similar methods that these reactions may be the most efficient way of fuelling carbon-based life forms cycles. Therefore it seems that similar metabolic paths will exist in alien life as in ours, similar sugars could be used. Similar excretion could exist, as will a similar food chain.

I think you can expect that there will be predators out there. Predation is an economic device, carnivores leave it to plants or plant eaters to slowly build up energy-rich molecules from sunlight or some other source. They then harvest this crop of useful compounds quickly.

Science fiction has presented nearly all examples in some form or other. John Wyndham writes of living planets, early Star Trek episodes contained gaseous and electronic life in various forms, and multiple films contain psychic life of unknown mediums interacting with Humanity in some way. Alien life could be extremely different, unrecognizable. We might be as invisible to it as it is to us. Bacteria do not know what they grow in, yet we know of bacteria.

On the other hand, life could indeed be quite similar to what we see here on Earth. It wont have evolved the same species or phenotypes but I think we can expect 4-legged animals, birds, fish, etc, the same basic classes that we have on Earth.


So as I understand it life could indeed be non-carbon based, but carbon is the most likely both due to the abundance and the chemical characteristics.

Best,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#495    Radian

Radian

    Καρδιά ενός &a

  • Member
  • 8,002 posts
  • Joined:13 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Καρδιά ενός δράκου

  • Καρδιά ενός δράκου

Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:23 PM

Quote



How  they got here is, to me,  secondary, Ill worry about that once Im convinced that they are really here.



Out of all the "appearences" where are they? It will be cold day in hades, if i'm not convinced by now.

Posted Image <-- my attack bee




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users