25 replies to this topic

[Isis2200]

Michael Cremo is a member of the History of Science Society, the World Archeological Congress, the Philosophy of Science Association, the European Association of Archaeologists and associate member of the Bhaktivedanta Institute specializing in history and philosophy of science.  He has written in my opinion one of the most important books of our time.  That book is Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race

This book shows that archaeologists and anthropologists, over the past one hundred and fifty years, have accumulated vast amounts of evidence showing that humans like ourselves have existed on this planet for tens of millions of years.  In his book he shows how this evidence has been suppressed, ignored, and forgotten because it contradicts generally-held ideas about human evolution.

I listened to a radio interview in which Michael Cremo described the following excellent example of our “forbidden archaeology”:

Mary Leakey’s Footprints

In 1979 Mary Leakey, famous archaeologist, announced the find of some footprints she and her co-workers found at a place called Laetoli in Tanzania in East Africa.  There were dozens of footprints arranged in three trails so that it showed there were three individuals each making several footprints.  When Mary Leakey examined these footprints she concluded they were absolutely identical and were indistinguishable from anatomically modern human footprints.  They were found in layers of solidified volcanic ash that were dated using the potassium argon method as being 3,700,000 years old.  But how could this be since most scientists believe that hominids capable of making those kinds of footprints didn’t come into existence until millions of years later?

Mary Leakey thought there must have been some type of ape man that had feet like modern humans but there are no scientific remains that prove that idea.   Even the footprints of Australopithecus are quite ape-like in appearance.   Michael Cremo believes that  human antiquity can be staring humans in the face, and they will brush it aside and try to explain it as something else which is why he wrote Forbidden Archaelogy:  The Hidden History of the Human Race.  With this publication he has tried to web a tapestry that will help us gain some understanding into our past and states the following:

"In lecture presentations on Forbidden Archeology to scientific and lay audiences around the world I see a new consciousness emerging that integrates science and religion into a cohesive paradigm of reality."

I've now added this very important book to my library.  In my next post on this thread, I'll describe what Michael Cremo encountered at a convention he attended.

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

http://www.mcremo.com/cremo.htm

[kraftman]

Very interesting   .

[Shaftsbury]

Interesting Yes, but I don't think there is much science involved in his work.

Quote

"After carefully studying the Bhagavad-gita, a gift of some Hare Krishna people at a Grateful Dead concert, I decided that I should absorb myself in the yoga of devotion to the mysterious Lord Krishna.  Later I moved to Los Angeles to join the staff of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and to write for the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (BBT).  By 1980 I was regarded as an accomplished writer.  To date, the books written and edited by myself and other BBT staff have sold more than ten million copies and have been translated into many languages.

"With Dr. Richard L. Thompson, a founding member of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, I began a series of books aimed at both scholarly and popular audiences.  The first to be published was Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race.  This book shows that archaeologists and anthropologists, over the past one hundred and fifty years, have accumulated vast amounts of evidence showing that humans like ourselves have existed on this planet for tens of millions of years.  We show how this evidence has been suppressed, ignored, and forgotten because it contradicts generally-held ideas about human evolution."

"In lecture presentations on Forbidden Archeology to scientific and lay audiences around the world I see a new consciousness emerging that integrates science and religion into a cohesive paradigm of reality."

Michael Cremo is a writer, Dr. Richard L. Thompson has a Ph.D. in mathmatics. I really question how they can have accumulated all this "suppressed evidence" of a 2 billion year old human history.


Source: http://www.mcremo.com/cremo.htm

Source: http://www.afn.org/~bvi/people.html

Source: http://www.bvinst.edu/

[Isis2200]

Quote

Interesting Yes, but I don't think there is much science involved in his work.
Michael Cremo is a writer, Dr. Richard L. Thompson has a Ph.D. in mathmatics. I really question how they can have accumulated all this "suppressed evidence" of a 2 billion year old human history.
Source: http://www.mcremo.com/cremo.htm

Source: http://www.afn.org/~bvi/people.html

Source: http://www.bvinst.edu/

If I read a book and someone in the book makes a statement without backing his statements with quotes, links to websites, references to other people's works, I don't usually think much of the book or its writer.  But this is one that is filled with such references.  I could be a circus clown, but I could write a credible book based on years of research into the subject.  And I think this is what they've done.

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

[Shaftsbury]

Quote

If I read a book and someone in the book makes a statement without backing his statements with quotes, links to websites, references to other people's works, I don't usually think much of the book or its writer.  But this is one that is filled with such references.  I could be a circus clown, but I could write a credible book based on years of research into the subject.  And I think this is what they've done.

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

I think you missed my point, If the evidence is "suppressed" or hidden and they themselves are not scientists how did they get the inside information?

However, just skimming through some of the reviews on the book it looks like at least some of it is a collection of non related archaeological mysteries, linked together to try and back their theories. Where is the scandal there?

Edited by Shaftsbury, 11 November 2006 - 12:25 AM.

[aquatus1]

I can't help but think that everytime I hear about "suppressed" or "hidden" information, it inevitably ends up being data that is readily available, but not considered valid or credible by scientists.  In other words, it isn't part of a theory because it can't be supported, not because it doesn't support.

[fantazum]

Quote

I can't help but think that everytime I hear about "suppressed" or "hidden" information, it inevitably ends up being data that is readily available, but not considered valid or credible by scientists.  In other words, it isn't part of a theory because it can't be supported, not because it doesn't support.

I got this off just one of thousands of websites:

"There have been many findings demonstrating that Homo sapiens dates back even earlier than 800,000 years. One of them is a discovery by Louis Leakey in the early 1970s in Olduvai Gorge. Here, in the Bed II layer, Leakey discovered that Australopithecus, Homo habilis and Homo erectus species had co-existed at the same time. What is even more interesting was a structure Leakey found in the same layer (Bed II). Here, he found the remains of a stone hut. The unusual aspect of the event was that this construction, which is still used in some parts of Africa, could only have been built by Homo sapiens! So, according to Leakey's findings, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus and modern man must have co-existed approximately 1.7 million years ago.219 This discovery must surely invalidate the evolutionary theory that claims that modern man evolved from ape-like species such as Australopithecus.

Indeed, some other discoveries trace the origins of modern man back to 1.7 million years ago. One of these important finds is the footprints found in Laetoli, Tanzania, by Mary Leakey in 1977. These footprints were found in a layer that was calculated to be 3.6 million years old, and more importantly, they were no different from the footprints that a contemporary man would leave. "
Source: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_11.html

Yes I know but one must bear in mind that we now know for certain that Neanderthal man co-existed with modern man or Homo Sapiens so could not humanoid type creatures in various forms have evolved alongside each other in the dim and distant past? After all there are numerous species of Ape. Why could not Man in his various forms have evolved, lived and then declined or become extinct throughout the  3 billion years this planet has been capable of supporting complex organic life-forms?

[Isis2200]

Quote

I can't help but think that everytime I hear about "suppressed" or "hidden" information, it inevitably ends up being data that is readily available, but not considered valid or credible by scientists.  In other words, it isn't part of a theory because it can't be supported, not because it doesn't support.

Hi Aquatus :-)

Yes, exactly.  and Cremo's book is also filled with this.....scientists ignoring facts that point to something different than what they learned.  Michael Cremo stated that the problem is that everyone in the fields of archaeology and anthropology wants to maintain the status quo.  Far be it for them to say that all the textbooks were wrong.  Anyone want to lose their job?  this is a quick way to do it.

So I know what you mean.  This is true in some cases that the date is readily available, as Cremo also points out, but it is considered invalid by saying it couldn't be that, or you're reading the findings the wrong way.  Bottom line is they don't want to admit they were wrong, wrong about when we appeared on the Earth, wrong about who was on the Earth during a certain period of Time, and other things.  

Aquatus, I heard it stated on a radio show last night that because they supposedly never found "the missing link", now they're saying a primate that was here on Earth during ancient times mated with Neanderthals to create Homo Sapiens.    This is another thing they're famous for, "gee, we dont' know the answer so....let's just fill in the gaps."

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

Edited by Isis2200, 11 November 2006 - 02:43 AM.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

Quote

Michael Cremo stated that the problem is that everyone in the field of archaeology wants to maintain the status quo.  Far be it for them to say that all the textbooks were wrong.  Anyone want to lose their job?  this is a quick way to do it.

This is the classic claim of the conspiracy theorist when confronted by the fact that the real experts in the field do not back up their case. It is applied to all sciences, not just archaeology and in all cases it is wrong. In science the surest way to immortality is to overthrow the status quo. Einstein overthrew Newton and in doing so is considered by many the greatest mind of the 20th century.

It is true that scientists are only human and are reluctant to let go of cherished ideas but they do when the evidence is strong enough. This is particularly true of the young scientists in any fields. They are not so set in their ways and are more open to new ideas. They have not yet risen to high positions so have little to lose in embracing new ideas. Those that resort to the "they don't want to lose their jobs" are those who don't actually have the evidence to overthrow the status quo or indeed to attract anyone with expertise at all.

[Isis2200]

Quote

This is the classic claim of the conspiracy theorist when confronted by the fact that the real experts in the field do not back up their case. It is applied to all sciences, not just archaeology and in all cases it is wrong. In science the surest way to immortality is to overthrow the status quo. Einstein overthrew Newton and in doing so is considered by many the greatest mind of the 20th century.

It is true that scientists are only human and are reluctant to let go of cherished ideas but they do when the evidence is strong enough. This is particularly true of the young scientists in any fields. They are not so set in their ways and are more open to new ideas. They have not yet risen to high positions so have little to lose in embracing new ideas. Those that resort to the "they don't want to lose their jobs" are those who don't actually have the evidence to overthrow the status quo or indeed to attract anyone with expertise at all.

I very much disagree, but I respect your opinion, Waspie.  I tell people it's ok to disagree as long as it's done in a respectful manner. :-)

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

[aquatus1]

Quote

Yes, exactly.  and Cremo's book is also filled with this.....scientists ignoring facts that point to something different than what they learned.  Michael Cremo stated that the problem is that everyone in the fields of archaeology and anthropology wants to maintain the status quo.  Far be it for them to say that all the textbooks were wrong.  Anyone want to lose their job?  this is a quick way to do it.

Ahh...no.  There isn't a single scientists out there who wouldn't love to have solid evidence that overturned everything that we know.  That's intellectual immortality right there!  That's the brass ring, the holy grail!  Status quo?  Hah!  Every scientist out there wants to redefine the status quo, with them at the top, and something like this would certainly do it!  

Quote

So I know what you mean.  This is true in some cases that the date is readily available, as Cremo also points out, but it is considered invalid by saying it couldn't be that, or you're reading the findings the wrong way.  Bottom line is they don't want to admit they were wrong, wrong about when we appeared on the Earth, wrong about who was on the Earth during a certain period of Time, and other things.

Alternatively, it could also mean the evidence is not credible or false.

Quote

Aquatus, I heard it stated on a radio show last night that because they supposedly never found "the missing link", now they're saying a primate that was here on Earth during ancient times mated with Neanderthals to create Homo Sapiens.    This is another thing they're famous for, "gee, we dont' know the answer so....let's just fill in the gaps."
~ Isis

Anytime you hear anyone talking about not having a "missing link", that is you red flag that they are just repeating arguments and don't actually understand the field of evolutionary studies.  The term "missing link" hasn't referred to a specific creature for several decades; it originally did, back in Darwinian days when evolution was thought to be a very specifically deliniated tree of species.  Nowadays, that theory has long been overturned, and the term merely refers to any creature that stand in the evolutionary line between two others.  The idea of a single missing link waiting to be found is obsolete, and has been for a long time.

[Leonardo]

Quote

I got this off just one of thousands of websites:

"There have been many findings demonstrating that Homo sapiens dates back even earlier than 800,000 years. One of them is a discovery by Louis Leakey in the early 1970s in Olduvai Gorge. Here, in the Bed II layer, Leakey discovered that Australopithecus, Homo habilis and Homo erectus species had co-existed at the same time. What is even more interesting was a structure Leakey found in the same layer (Bed II). Here, he found the remains of a stone hut. The unusual aspect of the event was that this construction, which is still used in some parts of Africa, could only have been built by Homo sapiens! So, according to Leakey's findings, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus and modern man must have co-existed approximately 1.7 million years ago.219 This discovery must surely invalidate the evolutionary theory that claims that modern man evolved from ape-like species such as Australopithecus.

Indeed, some other discoveries trace the origins of modern man back to 1.7 million years ago. One of these important finds is the footprints found in Laetoli, Tanzania, by Mary Leakey in 1977. These footprints were found in a layer that was calculated to be 3.6 million years old, and more importantly, they were no different from the footprints that a contemporary man would leave. "
Source: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_11.html

The 'hut' Mary Leakey discovered is described in this document as probably a wind break structure, not a fully enclosed accommodation. No mention is made of what species of homo constructed it. Of course if you are talking of a different structure I'd appreciate a link to your other source. Dr Lovtrup has every right to disagree with current evolutionary thinking. This is how progress is made. He may end up being correct but he has yet to prove either Darwin wrong or himself correct.

Many 'revelations of hidden knowledge' turn out to be rehashes of old hypotheses, sometimes using evidence that has already been discredited. The document I linked to provides instruction for joining an archaeology dig at Olduvai Gorge if anyone feels like trying to dig up any controversial evidence.

[Isis2200]

I'd like to preface this post by saying that in speaking about the scientific community, I am in no way suggesting that every scientist is part of this malevolent faction which has worked to maintain secrecy about our true origins on this planet, nor am I suggesting that any scientist on this forum is part of that malevolent faction.  There are some darn good scientists out there who are working hard to fight for justice and truth.  There just always has to be a few bad apples in the bunch, and they happen to be at the top of the hierarchy.

I just read a report by Will Hart.  Will has written several books and articles and has appeared on numerous radio shows.  He is a journalist, researcher, book author, and documentary filmmaker.   One of his articles is titled "Archaeological Coverups:  A Plot to Control History?".  Following is an excerpt of that article:

"The case of author Michael Cremo is well documented, and it also demonstrates how the scientific establishment openly uses pressure tactics on the media and government. His book Forbidden Archeology examines many previously ignored examples of artifacts that prove modern man's antiquity far exceeds the age given in accepted chronologies."

"The examples which he and his co-author present are controversial, but the book became far more controversial than the contents when it was used in a documentary."

"In 1996, NBC broadcast a special called The Mysterious Origins of Man, which featured material from Cremo's book. The reaction from the scientific community went off the Richter scale. NBC was deluged with letters from irate scientists who called the producer "a fraud" and the whole program 'a hoax'."

"But the scientists went further than this--a lot further. In an extremely unconscionable sequence of bizarre moves, they tried to force NBC not to rebroadcast the popular program, but that effort failed. Then they took the most radical step of all: they presented their case to the federal government and requested the Federal Communications Commission to step in and bar NBC from airing the program again."

"This was not only an apparent infringement of free speech and a blatant attempt to thwart commerce, it was an unprecedented effort to censor intellectual discourse. If the public or any government agency made an attempt to handcuff the scientific establishment, the public would never hear the end of it."

"The letter to the FCC written by Dr Allison Palmer, President of the Institute for Cambrian Studies, is revealing:"

'At the very least, NBC should be required to make substantial prime-time apologies to their viewing audience for a sufficient period of time so that the audience clearly gets the message that they were duped. In addition, NBC should perhaps be fined sufficiently so that a major fund for public science education can be established.'

"I think we have some good leads on who "the Brain Police" are. And I really do not think "conspiracy" is too strong a word--because for every case of this kind of attempted suppression that is exposed, 10 others are going on successfully. We have no idea how many enigmatic artifacts or dates have been labelled "error" and tucked away in storage warehouses or circular files, never to see the light of day."

The part that was really disturbing was the statement by Louis Leakey included in the following excerpt:

"Scientists do not hesitate to launch the most outrageous personal attacks against those they perceive to be the enemy. Eminent palaeontologist Louis Leakey penned this acid one-liner about Forbidden Archeology: 'Your book is pure humbug and does not deserve to be taken seriously by anyone but a fool.'  Once again, we see the thrust of a personal attack; the merits of the evidence presented in the book are not examined or debated. It is a blunt, authoritarian pronouncement."

This behavior is typical of a faction of scientists and/or other people working for the government

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_wh1.htm#Archaeological

Edited by Isis2200, 11 November 2006 - 10:40 PM.

[aquatus1]

Sounds like what pretty much every special interest group does when they encounter something they don't like.

[Leonardo]

Any person is entitled to their views, scientists are no exception. Any person is entitled to believe their opinion correct, scientists are no exception. Most people do not like having their opinion challenged, scientists are no exception.

I cannot refute that, when challenged, a scientist promoting a hypothesis or theory will defend their position. However most scientists also believe in the scientific process and try to act within this (of course there is politicking and the like - this is unavoidable). As for conspiracy theories, why believe it is the scientists defending a position who are the conspiracy, why not believe it is the attackers?

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories - I accept that ego and politics sometimes gets in the way of scientific advance. However, what cannot be refuted is that, over the hundreds of years of humanity's scientific endeavour, science has changed a great deal. It is not always quick but, when the evidence presents the case for change, that change is inevitable.

Quantity of work has never held as much value to a scientist as quality of work. I'm sure this is the same in many walks of life. If the quality of evidence calls for a change, that will happen. If there is a large quantity of poor evidence, change will probably not occur.

To the best of my knowledge there is not a small cabal of scientists actively repressing scientific advance. I could be wrong but that is my opinion.

We all may have issues with some of the scientific knowledge underlying currently accepted theories, but the only way this will change is if we, or someone who has similar issue, presents quality evidence to the contrary of current scientific opinion. I hope to do my small bit towards that, this is why I am studying as a scientist, but I know it will be difficult.  Change always is.

Isis2200, this wasn't an attack on you or your post. I accept you feel frustrated that some of the things you and others believe aren't accepted by the scientific community. I did feel, however, that I had to explain somewhat in defence of the scientific position.

We all depend on science to some degree. Science can't afford to be 'high-risk', with very few exceptions. The scientific community is naturally conservative and thus resists change. Don't blame scientists for this, caution is necessary because there can be some very unpleasant, even dangerous, consequences if it isn't.