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Humpback whales have same brain cells as...


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#16    Altheia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 12:25 PM

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No, I'm not.

Which animals, besides humans, make you think it's true?



...if you leave the cages open in a zoo i guarantee the animals will go out and explore. The search for freedom. Curiousity. Wanting to know more then "the bassin" or "the cage".


my own midget hamster always found inventive ways of getting out of his cage couple years back.



He didn't worry about not getting his easy meals, he just wanted out, explore.

Edited by Altheia, 15 December 2006 - 12:29 PM.


#17    Raptor

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:15 PM

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...if you leave the cages open in a zoo i guarantee the animals will go out and explore. The search for freedom. Curiousity. Wanting to know more then "the bassin" or "the cage".
my own midget hamster always found inventive ways of getting out of his cage couple years back.
He didn't worry about not getting his easy meals, he just wanted out, explore.


Your point was that wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence; by saying that even a hamster tries to escape to freedom you just proved yourself wrong.  huh.gif


#18    Altheia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:19 PM

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Your point was that wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence; by saying that even a hamster tries to escape to freedom you just proved yourself wrong.  huh.gif


i also typed before that even a goldfish wants extra space sooner or later.


So no i haven't proven myself wrong, i have pointed out once again that dolphins aren't that smart.

do try to keep up.

Edited by Altheia, 15 December 2006 - 10:20 PM.


#19    Raptor

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:43 PM

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i also typed before that even a goldfish wants extra space sooner or later.
So no i haven't proven myself wrong.

do try to keep up.


You suggested that dolphins aren't intelligent because goldfish try to escape more quickly than them; and that wanting to escape is indicatory of intelligence, meaning that dolphins can't be that much more intelligent that a goldfish.

The fact that goldfish, and now hamsters, try to escape proves that the desire for freedom isn't a product of intelligence. To show that it is, you'd need lots of examples of intelligent animals that behave like you say.

Listing loads of random unintelligent animals which do want freedom, doesn't really back up your point that intelligent animals want it.

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i have pointed out once again that dolphins aren't that smart


No, you simply reiterated the same invalid point again.

Edited by Raptor X7, 15 December 2006 - 10:48 PM.


#20    Altheia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:07 PM

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You suggested that dolphins aren't intelligent because goldfish try to escape more quickly than them; and that wanting to escape is indicatory of intelligence, meaning that dolphins can't be that much more intelligent that a goldfish.

The fact that goldfish, and now hamsters, try to escape proves that the desire for freedom isn't a product of intelligence. To show that it is, you'd need lots of examples of intelligent animals that behave like you say.

Listing loads of random unintelligent animals which do want freedom, doesn't really back up your point that intelligent animals want it.
No, you simply reiterated the same invalid point again.



Begin last post


If you read closely i also mentioned a zoo. A zoo holds all sorts of animals: monkey's (which are considered intelligent), bears, giraffes...all that crap.


So im not only listing the so called "lesser" intelligent animals.
And for the last damn time, im not saying dolphins are not intelligent. Im saying that are not AS intelligent as they are hyped out to be...sigh.

Now to explain one of the basics of logics.
With humans the thirst for freedom is considered an intelligence factor. If you find this in animals they show a form of intelligence. It's a diversion you see.
Dolphins do not show this factor, on the contrary, they are timid and easily tameable. They do tricks, well good for them. The intelligent response to learning tricks would be rebellion. Again, a form of wanting freedom.
Yes, circusanimals like the tiger also do tricks (sometimes they rebel tho, and are not as easy to tame as dolphins) and yes they will try to escape faster than a dolphin. So i consider them to be more intelligent.

Maybe dolphins are plotting something with their high frequenced "voices" who knows, maybe the rebellion is forming. Fact is that it hasn't yet or never will. Thus, so far, they are less intelligent than animals that do seek freedom in various ways.

Goldfish and hamsters are also more intelligent on the freedomseeking level apparantly yes.
It's an important factor for superior intelligent beings, as us humans, to be free ... or at least live in the illusion of freedom. One who does not seek it is considered simple and dumb.
And now i don't mean that all the nerds in front of their pc's are dumb because they do not seek more space. You have freedom on more levels than the space one.
But if you let a human in a tank do tricks day after day, while being able to just leap to another bigger more free one, the human will do it. It's the smart thing to do, the open minded thing to do. Wanting to learn, wanting to know more.



Hereby i would like to congratulate myself for doing my best in formulating the basics of logics in a fairly good way i believe.
Well done me.


End last post


#21    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:40 PM

There is just one little problem with your argument... The brains and intelligence of the dolphins cannot be compared to that of land animals, simply because their natural habitats are so wastly different. The dolphin does not percieve the world as land-based animals do. I have never heard of a single water-living creature (apart from Willy) that jumped over some obstacle, their minds simply 'lack' that solution due to the rareness of the problem (Konrad Lorenz proved by experiment that certain praerie-living birds have similar non-reations to obstaels simply becuse they don't have them in their natural habitats). They surely possess a thirst for freedom (just compare the dorsal fins of a wild and a captive killer whale, you'll see the abnormality that captivity causes), but they do not have the mental means of escape. On the other hand, cetaceans have shown incredible communicational and organizing, for example in one experiment, dolphins were taught a simple sign/sound language and they could generate simple Subject-Object-Verb sentences. Dolphins are also great coordinators: They have been seen driving fish out from the water in a close formation in which a group of dolphins swam sideways while each one's back was pressed against another's belly in order to have one big mass of dolphins in order to maximize effectiveness. They recognize themselves in a mirror and have identities. Also, they can use tools: the humpbacks frequently use walls of bubbles againts large groups of fish in order to herd them into one big group. These are all signs of higher intellect which does not appear in hamsters r golfish


#22    Altheia

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 12:09 AM

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I have never heard of a single water-living creature (apart from Willy) that jumped over some obstacle, their minds simply 'lack' that solution due to the rareness of the problem


oh for crying out loud, the goldfish (and im not making this up no) jumps from one bowl to a bigger after some time, simply because it has more space.
so what you type in untrue.

Birds also form groups to look bigger.


To make things short and finalize my posting in this thread: dolphins are not smarter than other animals/mammals, as ppl like to think. They are overhyped.

I rest my case.
Now go on, waste some more minutes on proving me wrong, and oh please yes do mention how dolphins are smarter cuz of this and that, ONCE AGAIN. hourah.


#23    Raptor

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 12:20 AM

Altheia, my point was that there's nothing to show that the desire for freedom is at all related to intelligence.

Animals tend to explore larger territories so that they can do what they need to do; generally that involves finding food, shelter and a mate. They obviously have a better chance of doing that in a larger area. Most animals have no concept of 'freedom' at all.

I believe dolphins don't need to 'escape' because they're intelligent, they're able to see that they have everything they need already provided for them in their tank.


#24    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 10:33 AM

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oh for crying out loud, the goldfish (and im not making this up no) jumps from one bowl to a bigger after some time, simply because it has more space.
so what you type in untrue.

Birds also form groups to look bigger.
To make things short and finalize my posting in this thread: dolphins are not smarter than other animals/mammals, as ppl like to think. They are overhyped.

I rest my case.
Now go on, waste some more minutes on proving me wrong, and oh please yes do mention how dolphins are smarter cuz of this and that, ONCE AGAIN. hourah.


Goldfish jump out not because they know that there is freedom on the outside, but simply start off to the direction where there is no wall, and that by chance means up and out. It is a simple panic reaction and has nothing to do with an abstract concept like freedom which can only be understod by humans. Animals go out of their cage by chance or because they are curious, not because they want to be free: A lion in a zoo is as happy as it can be: It can lay round all day, it gets food without the annoyace of hunting and there is no competition.

As for birds: Show me a grup of birds which herds together a group of 'prey', then in a close and highly organzied formation chase them somewhere whereit cannot escape. plus, there is almost zero visibility in the coastal waters where this occurs, so there must be some form of coordinating communication between the individuals...


#25    ShaunZero

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 10:50 AM

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that's like saying we're more intelligent cuz we produce sounds they don't understand.

Dolphins are not that smart is they are hyped to be.
If they would trully be highly intelligent, then why the hell does a goldfish feel the urge faster to escape from it's bowl then a dolphin out a tank? The barriers are low enough for a dolphin to jump over.
Wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence, dolphins do not want this or so it seems. Either they are plotting a major war or they are just ... well, dumb.


I agree with you. There are some types of things that it seems an "intelligent animal" would do, but they usually don't. I think most people make out animals to be smarter than they actually are.

I've never seen any other animal make any technology, or anything even close to as complex as what humans can do. The only excuse I'll get is probably "Maybe they don't want to".

I could probably dimenstrate how a knife works in front of a friendly dolphin by stabbing a watermelon in front of one, then raising it and pretending to stab the dolphin, and I bet it'd just look at me... If anything just the swing would startle it. I could probably pet the damn thing with the knife and it wouldn't even realize that what I'm doing is dangerous. This is the type of thing I'm talking about, which displays how they are not as intelligent as humans.

I bet they can't use logic anywhere near ours.(Talking about at it's best, because I know some humans are just stupid XD)

Edited by Zero of Deism, 16 December 2006 - 10:56 AM.

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#26    sbradj

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:24 PM

almost impossible to compare land dwelling animals with that of ocean dwelling animals..but take a swine for example if it has all the food water etc it wants plenty of room to roam etc...if it wants out it will find away out for whatever reason it may want...take a horse if it has all the room to roam and it wants out it will get out it will find a weak spot and get out .cattle the same way...as for it being an intellegent thing i dont know more as a roaming thing and once an animal wants to roam and explore it will almost impossible to keep them in unless electricty is involved or a foam of restraint inwhich they cant break through...take a horse that has a low selfesteem if you will that has a small area little nutrients ..in alot of cases it will except these conditions and not have no response/rebellion or desire to leave or change them...wouldnt call them less intellegent just brokendown spirit wise...u can do the same with most land dwelling animals same as with a dog ...which some not all have the reckonition of a dangerous situation on their ground and will go against or protect...which i would call intellegent...same with humans if u can teach educate or train them to do certain things then they would be called intellegent ..but to say that something can escape or break out or be a free roamer would not called that intellegent nor stupid just maybe a trait they might have...not all of the same breed of the same species is as intellegent as the others of the same ...Dolphines have been known to direct boats/ships into shallow waters into the habor ...they have been known to save ppl....but take one that lives in captivety....thats all they can except they have to have water...what are they gonna do? jump outta the tank and die? or live in the atmostphere that will keep them alive? intellegience lies in different states and forms.. with ppl and animals..

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#27    Tucuxi

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 09:12 PM

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which animals should we treat equally then?
believe it or not we are in fact the superior race on this planet.
alternatives are sought to minimilize animaluse/abuse...this takes time if we don't want this to effect us or slow/limit our evolution/way of life.

Don't get me wrong, im not pro animal-abuse. On the contrary.


I'm sure you ment species, not race. If by "superior [race]" you mean the species that has had the most impact on the planet (much of it negative), then you are absolutely right. Unlike any other animal, including the ones that use tools, humans are able to manipulate their environment, and have done it on a global scale. This is impressive, no doubt.  If we contiue on the path we are going, we will only wipe ourselves out. I do not see us as superior, simply filling a niche. We can be wiped out just like any other animal on the Earth.  It's hard to say which animals we should treat as equals, or at least, higher than others. It all depends on how you define intelligence. The way I see it, just because a creature cannot speak or sign a human language does not make it inferior. I don't think anyone here can speak whale, either. In fact, many animals can understand us far more than we can understand them. Focusing purely on marine mammals, I see them as our counterparts in the water. They have dominated the ocean realms the way we have dominated the land, only they have managed not to wreak such devastation on their environment as we have on ours AND theirs. Treating ALL animals equally would certainly be hindrance to society, but even from a purely Utilitarian perspective, if we continue to exploit other living things they way we currently are, we will greatly harm this planet, and therefore slow our progress if not stop progressing completely. We are not immune to the natural workings of this planet despite our advanced technology. We have a place on this Earth just like everything else, and if we continue to be so destructive, it's all going to fly back into our faces. Sooner or later, Nature is going to give us a nasty reminder of our mortality. Alas, it has already begun.

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#28    ShaunZero

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 09:22 PM

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only they have managed not to wreak such devastation on their environment as we have on ours AND theirs.


In my opinion that's only because they aren't intelligent enough to do the things that we do. If they were, they'd probably end up just like us.

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