523 replies to this topic

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Quote

I agree with this simply for the fact that we exist. It's like the monkeys and the type writters. It's inconcievable that they would ever be able to write a shakespear play or whatever, but when you add infninty in to the equation what's stopping them?
Off topic i know however I found BNW's post interesting.

Reality.

[Kevin A.]

Quote

yes but...

you say that i should need a plastic table...but i don't have one...

One could make a glass table or clear plastic table. It really would not be that hard. Like the challenge states you can support it with some taller wine/champagne glasses or something? (Jj perhaps there should be a stipulation on how far from the floor/support surface the top of the "table" should be?)

For the table top a clear glass casserole dish might work? Or one could run down to the local hardware store and get some glass or clear acrylic? 1/4" plate glass 12x12 would not be too expensive. They will cut it to size and grind the edges for you so you will not get cut. Try looking in the yellow pages. I know my town has a few hardwares stores, several window places and at least one company specializing in plate glass. I recently purchased some plate glass and was surprised at how inexpensive it was all in all.

Take your time sourcing the parts. There really is no rush. Make sure you get it right the first time though. No need having to make the video again. The parts and pieces are not terribly expensive. I wouldn't think finding the money for the parts a little at a time too harsh even on the tightest budgets.

Kevin A.

Edited by Kevin A., 18 October 2007 - 12:28 AM.

[GetBornAgain]

Quote

Reality.

I don't know who it was first pointed out that, given enough time, a monkey bashing away at random on a typewriter could produce all the works of Shakespeare.

Richard Dawkins The Blind Watchmaker

Huxley, on the other hand, declared that given enough time all the possible combinations of matter, including those necessary to produce a man, will eventually occur by chance molecular movement. To prove his point Huxley asked Wilberforce to allow him the service of six monkeys that would live forever, six typewriters that would never wear out and an unlimited supply of paper and ink. He then argued that given an infinite amount of time these monkeys would eventually type all of the books in the British Library including the Bible and the works of Shakespeare!

http://godisnowhere.org/Data/ChickenorEgg.htm

Given enough time our reality was produced, why not some other sort of reality?

[Derac Smi]

Off topic, will try to confine topic within thread next time : ) Along our natural, evolution history we were given enough time to realize our present reality only. We are now able to discuss and debunk one another here at UM, a great feat of the conscious thinking mind I believe. On the other side, monkeys are still, well monkeys! To me the theory of evolution is trying to eat its cake and keep it too! Was there ever a scientific find that claim otherwise against evolution in its entirety? If so, would someone please start a thread on this rather interesting topic? More power!

[eight bits]

Quote

Given enough time our reality was produced, why not some other sort of reality?

Well, for one thing, it is an abuse of language.

There may be some excuse for the useage "multiple universes," to suggest the gist of a physical hypothesis, but the useage can only be suggestive. It is also lazy, the actual gist being closer to "compartmentalized universe." Compartmentalized may be a kluge-y word, but it is a word, and the phrase qualifies as a grounded metaphor.

Reality, truth, universe, ..., Miss World 2008, ... - each is like Highlander, In the end, there can be only one.

The alternative is that words lose what little purchase on meaning they have.

[Saru]

Psychic Challenge Notice

Due to the nature of the 'Psychic Challenge' participants must now be 18 years of age or older in order to take part. The original posts outlining the challenge will be ammended to include this information.

Thank you.

[Jjbreen]

SaRuMaN on Oct 18 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

Psychic Challenge Notice

Due to the nature of the 'Psychic Challenge' participants must now be 18 years of age or older in order to take part. The original posts outlining the challenge will be ammended to include this information.

Thank you.

I will amend the challenge and repost it shortly.... Thanks Saruman....

[GetBornAgain]

eight bits on Oct 18 2007, 05:33 AM, said:

Well, for one thing, it is an abuse of language.

There may be some excuse for the useage "multiple universes," to suggest the gist of a physical hypothesis, but the useage can only be suggestive. It is also lazy, the actual gist being closer to "compartmentalized universe." Compartmentalized may be a kluge-y word, but it is a word, and the phrase qualifies as a grounded metaphor.

Reality, truth, universe, ..., Miss World 2008, ... - each is like Highlander, In the end, there can be only one.

The alternative is that words lose what little purchase on meaning they have.

I'm going to have to admit that I have no idea what you are talking about. My education is the equivilant to a highschool dropout. I meant only that I believe given an enormous amount of time anything may be possible. Could be wrong, usually am.

Edited by GetBornAgain, 18 October 2007 - 11:16 PM.

[eight bits]

Quote

I meant only that I believe given an enormous amount of time anything may be possible.

We are in full agreement. Sorry for the mix-up - but Huxley talking to Wilberforce wrong-footed me .

I know, that was Dawkins speaking. My bad. Really, sorry.

[Jjbreen]

UP DATES TO THE $1,000.00 Challenge -

OK, some local friends of mine have handed over the $$'s to raise the below challenge to $1,000.00. That's a total of $1,000.00

The funds that Dark Lotus has added, have been omitted on purpose. I have not been able to get hold of him now for some time. So I am unsure as to if he is still wanting to put this money up. When he should come back online, and says the offer is still good, I will then added his donation to the pot.

For Legal Reasons:
Anyone taking this challenge MUST be 18 yrs or older and must provide valid and credible proof of their age.

Saruman has requested this and I have honored this request.

NOTE:
Anyone that wishes to add funds to this challenge may do so. Just REPLY to this post, add your name, and amount that you will pay towards the challenge. UNDERSTAND - I intend to pay out the $1,000.00. So I totally expect anyone that adds to this, the integrity to do also. (Three people have PM'd me about this now.) Do not post $$ added if you do not intend to pay it out - should it be met. Please.... Thanks.... JjBreen.

THE CONDITIONS AND RULES OF THE CHALLENGE:

Ok: some people seemed to have trouble understanding the RULES of the $300.00 $1,000.00 Challenge. I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer, but here the Challenge 'cleaned' up a bit.

Ok, here is an attempt to clarify the RULES for the $1,000.00 Pin Wheel (Psi Wheel) TK Challenge:

$900.00 of the award is from me, Jj and $100.00 of it is sponsored by UM Member: Arthur Vandolay -aka- Anthony.

It must be understood that ALL the conditions of the $1,000.00 challenge MUST BE MET.
The applicant cannot change the rules to ‘fit their need’.
If any of the conditions are NOT met as spelled out, the applicant failed to meet the requirements of the $1,000.00 Challenge.

This Challenge canNOT using any Remote Control devices or Hidden Devices or Secondary "Power Sources", ie:
-- Electronic Pumps
-- Tubes w/people blowing in them off camera
-- Motors,
-- Fans,
-- Heater,
-- Coolers and such.
-- Any IR (Inferred) Control Devices
-- Any Laser or Light technology.
-- Spot Lights
-- Strings.
-- Magnets
** Cannot be near any Spot light, heat lamps, heater vents, air flow vents and/or windows. It must be protected as is possible from these sources, or any other props to pull of the "stunt" or "illusion". This is NOT an "illusion" Challenge.

In other words be Accountable to be HONEST.

As stated to Matt's attempt -
I will put up $1,000.00 to anyone that can create an HONEST video using the PIN WHEEL to show Psi (TK) with ALL the following conditions being met.

This test must be done w/ALL the following conditions:

A.
Clear see through table top, and legs.
.. You can set the plastic clear table top on some tall glasses or some other clear leggings.
..... The purpose here is simple. It must be visually clear from ‘top to bottom and sides to sides’.
......... The legs must be 12” (inches) or taller.
......... The table must be 3 feet in length and width or bigger – NOT smaller.
......... They cannot be “Frosted” or other opaque textures.
......... THEY HAVE TO BE 100% CLEAR SEE THROUGH.

B.
Feather, Toilet paper strips or other super lightweight material placed loose on the table inside and outside the CLEAR Bowel w/the Pin Wheel.

C.
Nothing under the bowl, except the light weight loose material, the pin and support and the paper wheel.
Thus seeing all the way through at all times.

** The Bowl MUST be 100% crystal clear and not opaque, frosted or colored.
** The paper pin wheel must be white 100% paper. NO specialty paper.
** On person just IM'd me showing me his video w/Tracing Paper. That would be fine.

D.
Your Face and Both hands MUST be visible in the video at all times.

E.
Your hands must be 12 inches or more away from the bowl during the TK Demo. They canNOT be closer than 12 inches.

F.
Volume on the video must be ON. So we can hear what is taking place.
There must be NO pause or Edit 'blips' during the demo. Once the DEMO starts, you CANNOT TURN OFF THE CAMERA AT ANY TIME! You do you loose. It’s just that simple.

This will be reviewed for this by a local expert that I know and trust. He knows what to look for - he does this for a living for the past 25 years & the co-sponser: UM Member: Arthur Vandolay -aka- Anthony.

As for your $100.00, I’m willing to throw in another! Same rules you stated prior HOWEVER, I am a videographer, so if at all possible I would like a copy of the original (i will pay for shipping etc) So I can check it for edits, and other 'tricks'. If you let me do that, then I throw in 100 dollars to the cause. Make it the $200 challenge maybe that will wet their whistles.

So you must supply the ORGINAL COPY of the video to Arthur aka Anthony. He will pay for the shipping of the video as stated. So there is NO money out of your pocket

G.
You must give before the DEMO a 360 degree view of the room where you are before the test. You must show the whole room, not just the floor. We need to know what is in the room and who is in the room w/you.

H.
IF there is anyone else w/you during the video and demo – they (everyone) MUST be made known, both visual and audio.

I.
You must give at least a 2-3 foot FOV (Field Of View) of the Table before during the demo.
We must be able to clearly see the paper spin w/out any question marks at all. Again remember your character is on the line here for being honest and straight w/us.

J.
You must tell us which direction the pin wheel will spin and it MUST spin in that direction.
Then Stop it via TK and spin it in the opposite direction.

ALL THE ABOVE MUST BE MET - Not just part of them. ALL OF THEM.

... Then show the video online to the group ...

This is the first phase of the video & Demo.

After it has been viewed and validated that you met ALL the above:
** I will deposit $25.00 in your PayPal or other online Account for gas to do the next part.

You will give me your City & State where you live.

I will contact local High School or Community College to find a Science teacher that will have you come in and video the EXACT demo w/the exact same equipment. They will inspect it and then you are to do the video as you presented above. The teacher at the end will validate that NO Tricks or "side steps" were taken and that indeed this was done by no other explanation then "TK".

** If this video then passes you will receive the remainder of the $300.00 $1,000.00 prize money into your PayPal or other online account.

*** BUT - If it is found that you used any kind of tricks or other acts of dishonesty - You will need to pay back the $25.00 and apologize to the group for your act of Fraud.

It has been asked of me in private:
"Jj - do I have to state in public forum that I am taking this challenge?"

The answer is: YES

- I've put the challenge up in public. So anyone taking the challenge has to state so in public as well. This way everyone here knows, "I've been 'called on the challenge'." With everything clearly documented here, this will be watched, especially me. Should someone meet ALL the above requirements, then I have to PAY OUT THE MONEY- Which I have every intention of doing so.

- But also it gives us a clear accounting of the person doing the challenge. So that we all can see: Did they meet ALL the Check List?

Do I expect anyone to take the Challenge?

… NO - I honestly do not, which is very sad. A lot of people “talk the talk” but unlike me – they will NOT put their “money (actions) where their mouth is”.
It is EASIER and safer for them to talk the talk – then to ‘walk’ the talk.

For this simple reason:

When one removes the actual science behind it - you remove, what you thought was TK. So no one will dare risk proving I and others were right all along - its just science being passed off as Psi. The "believers" know this only all too well. Thus, they cannot step up - for then they too will prove - it's just Science and not Psi.

THE RULE:
You must be accountably HONEST. Dis-Honesty intended or not - will void this agreement and seen as an act of fraud.

Now it has been questioned as to my acceptance of the video:

I can only say this once.

ANYONE that meets ALL the above conditions, I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT IT! What part of that do you NOT understand?? It really is JUST THAT SIMPLE... Because other wise I look the fool and Con-artist. I have to much respect for my reputation than to play that kind of stupid game. If you "do it" - hey I will honestly be super impressed and will be HAPPY to pay you the money, if for no other reason - YOU DID IT! YOU PROVED YOUR WORDS W/CLEAR ACTIONS!!

Here is the point: I would be justifiedly BANNED from UM. I would give the "Believers" valid amunition towards the Skeptics. I simply will not do that! I woul loose a lot of friends on here, that I've come to value very much as good internet friends. No I will pay the money. I have always been good to my word, no matter what it costs me. I've done this for 35 yrs and am not about to start playing games now. My words is as good here as it is where I live. Un-like some, I'm the same online as I am off line when it comes to my reputation and crediblity. Unlike some, I do not play silly stupid games....

Ok - there are many talkers of this "power" - so any 'takers' --- or are we still just all talk?

As I have posted the challenge, this is what must be done:

THIS MUST BE FOLLOWED - IT IS PART OF THE CONDITIONS OF THE CHALLENGE!!

You must cut/paste the acceptance of this challenge, in this thread ---> BEFORE you present any videos.

I .....(full name & Handle)..... agree to take JjBreen's Pin Wheel Challenge. I agree to meet ALL the conditions set in the challenge. If I do not meet ALL of them - I have defaulted and the have broken the agreed upon challenge. Thus NO monies are owed me.

I .... *full name* ..... will present the first part of the Video on ... *date* .....

I live in the following .... *city* ..... and ... *state* ....

.... FULL NAME .... --- Date:

OK – there has been some question of posting your Personal Information on the NET: Since I can see this point as valid, then provide the stated information to me in a private PM or request to e-mail it to me and I will provide you with an E-MAIL. Understand that in all likely hood I will call to validate this information. But you will post acceptance of all the terms and condition on the thread under your “Handle” and I will validate it when it is indeed validated w/in 48 hours on this thread as well.

Edited by Jjbreen, 18 October 2007 - 11:49 PM.

[GetBornAgain]

eight bits on Oct 18 2007, 07:46 PM, said:

We are in full agreement. Sorry for the mix-up - but Huxley talking to Wilberforce wrong-footed me .

I know, that was Dawkins speaking. My bad. Really, sorry.

No problem at all. Take care.

[Jjbreen]

The New Rules are posted above. You must be 18 to get the money - but as "you" asked in the PM, you do not have to be 18 to just take the challenge ....

[Jjbreen]

Since I will be leaving UM on first of Next Week - Novemember 19th - 2007. This challenge is thus removed from this board.

Respectfully - Jj Breen Nov 16th - 2007]

Jjbreen on Oct 18 2007, 03:49 PM, said:

UP DATES TO THE $1,000.00 Challenge -

OK, some local friends of mine have handed over the $$'s to raise the below challenge to $1,000.00. That's a total of $1,000.00

The funds that Dark Lotus has added, have been omitted on purpose. I have not been able to get hold of him now for some time. So I am unsure as to if he is still wanting to put this money up. When he should come back online, and says the offer is still good, I will then added his donation to the pot.

For Legal Reasons:
Anyone taking this challenge MUST be 18 yrs or older and must provide valid and credible proof of their age.

Saruman has requested this and I have honored this request.

NOTE:
Anyone that wishes to add funds to this challenge may do so. Just REPLY to this post, add your name, and amount that you will pay towards the challenge. UNDERSTAND - I intend to pay out the $1,000.00. So I totally expect anyone that adds to this, the integrity to do also. (Three people have PM'd me about this now.) Do not post $$ added if you do not intend to pay it out - should it be met. Please.... Thanks.... JjBreen.

THE CONDITIONS AND RULES OF THE CHALLENGE:

Ok: some people seemed to have trouble understanding the RULES of the $300.00 $1,000.00 Challenge. I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer, but here the Challenge 'cleaned' up a bit.

Ok, here is an attempt to clarify the RULES for the $1,000.00 Pin Wheel (Psi Wheel) TK Challenge:

$900.00 of the award is from me, Jj and $100.00 of it is sponsored by UM Member: Arthur Vandolay -aka- Anthony.

It must be understood that ALL the conditions of the $1,000.00 challenge MUST BE MET.
The applicant cannot change the rules to ‘fit their need’.
If any of the conditions are NOT met as spelled out, the applicant failed to meet the requirements of the $1,000.00 Challenge.

This Challenge canNOT using any Remote Control devices or Hidden Devices or Secondary "Power Sources", ie:
-- Electronic Pumps
-- Tubes w/people blowing in them off camera
-- Motors,
-- Fans,
-- Heater,
-- Coolers and such.
-- Any IR (Inferred) Control Devices
-- Any Laser or Light technology.
-- Spot Lights
-- Strings.
-- Magnets
** Cannot be near any Spot light, heat lamps, heater vents, air flow vents and/or windows. It must be protected as is possible from these sources, or any other props to pull of the "stunt" or "illusion". This is NOT an "illusion" Challenge.

In other words be Accountable to be HONEST.

As stated to Matt's attempt -
I will put up $1,000.00 to anyone that can create an HONEST video using the PIN WHEEL to show Psi (TK) with ALL the following conditions being met.

This test must be done w/ALL the following conditions:

A.
Clear see through table top, and legs.
.. You can set the plastic clear table top on some tall glasses or some other clear leggings.
..... The purpose here is simple. It must be visually clear from ‘top to bottom and sides to sides’.
......... The legs must be 12” (inches) or taller.
......... The table must be 3 feet in length and width or bigger – NOT smaller.
......... They cannot be “Frosted” or other opaque textures.
......... THEY HAVE TO BE 100% CLEAR SEE THROUGH.

B.
Feather, Toilet paper strips or other super lightweight material placed loose on the table inside and outside the CLEAR Bowel w/the Pin Wheel.

C.
Nothing under the bowl, except the light weight loose material, the pin and support and the paper wheel.
Thus seeing all the way through at all times.

** The Bowl MUST be 100% crystal clear and not opaque, frosted or colored.
** The paper pin wheel must be white 100% paper. NO specialty paper.
** On person just IM'd me showing me his video w/Tracing Paper. That would be fine.

D.
Your Face and Both hands MUST be visible in the video at all times.

E.
Your hands must be 12 inches or more away from the bowl during the TK Demo. They canNOT be closer than 12 inches.

F.
Volume on the video must be ON. So we can hear what is taking place.
There must be NO pause or Edit 'blips' during the demo. Once the DEMO starts, you CANNOT TURN OFF THE CAMERA AT ANY TIME! You do you loose. It’s just that simple.

This will be reviewed for this by a local expert that I know and trust. He knows what to look for - he does this for a living for the past 25 years & the co-sponser: UM Member: Arthur Vandolay -aka- Anthony.

As for your $100.00, I’m willing to throw in another! Same rules you stated prior HOWEVER, I am a videographer, so if at all possible I would like a copy of the original (i will pay for shipping etc) So I can check it for edits, and other 'tricks'. If you let me do that, then I throw in 100 dollars to the cause. Make it the $200 challenge maybe that will wet their whistles.

So you must supply the ORGINAL COPY of the video to Arthur aka Anthony. He will pay for the shipping of the video as stated. So there is NO money out of your pocket

G.
You must give before the DEMO a 360 degree view of the room where you are before the test. You must show the whole room, not just the floor. We need to know what is in the room and who is in the room w/you.

H.
IF there is anyone else w/you during the video and demo – they (everyone) MUST be made known, both visual and audio.

I.
You must give at least a 2-3 foot FOV (Field Of View) of the Table before during the demo.
We must be able to clearly see the paper spin w/out any question marks at all. Again remember your character is on the line here for being honest and straight w/us.

J.
You must tell us which direction the pin wheel will spin and it MUST spin in that direction.
Then Stop it via TK and spin it in the opposite direction.

ALL THE ABOVE MUST BE MET - Not just part of them. ALL OF THEM.

... Then show the video online to the group ...

This is the first phase of the video & Demo.

After it has been viewed and validated that you met ALL the above:
** I will deposit $25.00 in your PayPal or other online Account for gas to do the next part.

You will give me your City & State where you live.

I will contact local High School or Community College to find a Science teacher that will have you come in and video the EXACT demo w/the exact same equipment. They will inspect it and then you are to do the video as you presented above. The teacher at the end will validate that NO Tricks or "side steps" were taken and that indeed this was done by no other explanation then "TK".

** If this video then passes you will receive the remainder of the $300.00 $1,000.00 prize money into your PayPal or other online account.

*** BUT - If it is found that you used any kind of tricks or other acts of dishonesty - You will need to pay back the $25.00 and apologize to the group for your act of Fraud.

It has been asked of me in private:
"Jj - do I have to state in public forum that I am taking this challenge?"

The answer is: YES

- I've put the challenge up in public. So anyone taking the challenge has to state so in public as well. This way everyone here knows, "I've been 'called on the challenge'." With everything clearly documented here, this will be watched, especially me. Should someone meet ALL the above requirements, then I have to PAY OUT THE MONEY- Which I have every intention of doing so.

- But also it gives us a clear accounting of the person doing the challenge. So that we all can see: Did they meet ALL the Check List?

Do I expect anyone to take the Challenge?

… NO - I honestly do not, which is very sad. A lot of people “talk the talk” but unlike me – they will NOT put their “money (actions) where their mouth is”.
It is EASIER and safer for them to talk the talk – then to ‘walk’ the talk.

For this simple reason:

When one removes the actual science behind it - you remove, what you thought was TK. So no one will dare risk proving I and others were right all along - its just science being passed off as Psi. The "believers" know this only all too well. Thus, they cannot step up - for then they too will prove - it's just Science and not Psi.

THE RULE:
You must be accountably HONEST. Dis-Honesty intended or not - will void this agreement and seen as an act of fraud.

Now it has been questioned as to my acceptance of the video:

I can only say this once.

ANYONE that meets ALL the above conditions, I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT IT! What part of that do you NOT understand?? It really is JUST THAT SIMPLE... Because other wise I look the fool and Con-artist. I have to much respect for my reputation than to play that kind of stupid game. If you "do it" - hey I will honestly be super impressed and will be HAPPY to pay you the money, if for no other reason - YOU DID IT! YOU PROVED YOUR WORDS W/CLEAR ACTIONS!!

Here is the point: I would be justifiedly BANNED from UM. I would give the "Believers" valid amunition towards the Skeptics. I simply will not do that! I woul loose a lot of friends on here, that I've come to value very much as good internet friends. No I will pay the money. I have always been good to my word, no matter what it costs me. I've done this for 35 yrs and am not about to start playing games now. My words is as good here as it is where I live. Un-like some, I'm the same online as I am off line when it comes to my reputation and crediblity. Unlike some, I do not play silly stupid games....

Ok - there are many talkers of this "power" - so any 'takers' --- or are we still just all talk?

As I have posted the challenge, this is what must be done:

THIS MUST BE FOLLOWED - IT IS PART OF THE CONDITIONS OF THE CHALLENGE!!

You must cut/paste the acceptance of this challenge, in this thread ---> BEFORE you present any videos.

I .....(full name & Handle)..... agree to take JjBreen's Pin Wheel Challenge. I agree to meet ALL the conditions set in the challenge. If I do not meet ALL of them - I have defaulted and the have broken the agreed upon challenge. Thus NO monies are owed me.

I .... *full name* ..... will present the first part of the Video on ... *date* .....

I live in the following .... *city* ..... and ... *state* ....

.... FULL NAME .... --- Date:

OK – there has been some question of posting your Personal Information on the NET: Since I can see this point as valid, then provide the stated information to me in a private PM or request to e-mail it to me and I will provide you with an E-MAIL. Understand that in all likely hood I will call to validate this information. But you will post acceptance of all the terms and condition on the thread under your “Handle” and I will validate it when it is indeed validated w/in 48 hours on this thread as well.

[Saru]

We'll be sorry to see you go, here's wishing you all the best with your future on-line endeavours.

As the challenge has been withdrawn and this thread has been inactive for some time i'll close this down.