1
Government intellect
are they evil ? or incompetant ?
Started by Xenojjin , Nov 13 2003 03:16 PM
Started by Xenojjin , Nov 13 2003 03:16 PM
63 replies to this topic
#16
saxcatz
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:07 PM
| QUOTE (moe eubleck @ Nov 13 2003, 10:02 AM) | ||
I think this may help. its part on an article I found, yes i have no life.  Having served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq since 1987, Glaspie unexpectedly found herself on July 25, 1990 meeting for the first time with Iraqi President Saddam Hussain in Baghdad. She knew Saddam never received foreign ambassadors but there she was just the same, sitting across the desk from the Iraqi strongman. Glaspie’s own career odyssey as the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country was itself an improbable tale. When she entered the Foreign Service in 1966, her chances as a woman of becoming an ambassador were virtually nil. The State Department “culture” was against it. Somewhere along the way, however, the Department “discovered” that it had very few woman ambassadors, and even fewer deputy chiefs of missions (DCMs, or deputy ambassadors). So the gender gap was narrowed, and Glaspie, who had an outstanding record (DCM in Damascus and a top political reporting officer citation for 1975), was sent to Baghdad as U.S. ambassador. Notice : " the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country " I think this may help your belief. |
Yes, an AMERICAN ambassador to an ARAB country. Not an ARAB ambassador to a US country. IE, I was right. Thank you.
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#17
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:11 PM
You know Seraphina, I am not going to bash you, because I believe you get what I am saying. (I said before, you are intelligent, and on most every other issue, I dig what you say)
You cannot prove that your sources are reliable.. I cannot prove that mine are either. But, being that I do have some brain cells left, I am smart enough to not bash any entity, if I cannot prove that the claims that I spew are legite. I am just challenging you and anyone else, with their Bush, war, politics, claims, to back it up. Being that you are a smart gal, you know that I am not going to get the evidence that I am asking for. (You simply don't have it) I am more trying to prove a point that reading editorials, does not constitute proof. There can be 20 stories from 20 sources, that are saying the same thing, but you should know, that doesn't make it credible, it makes it repeated.
I am going to believe in my country and my President, until given good reason to sway me the other way.
Like I said Sera, when it comes to Biology, you have the scales tipped in your favor, but when it comes to American policy, you just aren't informed enough to make a rational choice either way, just by reading editorials.
It is always easier to look in through a window, then it is actually being inside. You critisize from a distance, which makes you and anyone else, appear bitter, and judgemental, along with misinformed. If you want to discuss this with me, I certainly will. As I stated before, I am so into calling someone out, when they have done a wrong. But, you have to show up to the game wearing your sneakers, if you want a fair play.
Reese
You cannot prove that your sources are reliable.. I cannot prove that mine are either. But, being that I do have some brain cells left, I am smart enough to not bash any entity, if I cannot prove that the claims that I spew are legite. I am just challenging you and anyone else, with their Bush, war, politics, claims, to back it up. Being that you are a smart gal, you know that I am not going to get the evidence that I am asking for. (You simply don't have it) I am more trying to prove a point that reading editorials, does not constitute proof. There can be 20 stories from 20 sources, that are saying the same thing, but you should know, that doesn't make it credible, it makes it repeated.
I am going to believe in my country and my President, until given good reason to sway me the other way.
Like I said Sera, when it comes to Biology, you have the scales tipped in your favor, but when it comes to American policy, you just aren't informed enough to make a rational choice either way, just by reading editorials.
It is always easier to look in through a window, then it is actually being inside. You critisize from a distance, which makes you and anyone else, appear bitter, and judgemental, along with misinformed. If you want to discuss this with me, I certainly will. As I stated before, I am so into calling someone out, when they have done a wrong. But, you have to show up to the game wearing your sneakers, if you want a fair play.
Reese
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#18
saxcatz
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There are only 10 kinds of people:
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:12 PM
| QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 13 2003, 09:57 AM) |
| Excuse me? When have I said I'm above fault? I stated an alternative opinion, someone asked for how I supported that opinion, and I did. You, in reply, call me narrow minded, concieted, and so on and so forth. Obviously, you're not all that accepting of alternative view points I'm actually pretty critial of the UK government's handling of the situation in Iraq as well as the US's. In the long run, I don't doubt they'll be better off...however, it doesn't matter on the issue here, and that is that they're making a complete mess of the occupation, and don't seem to be giving all the facts about how badly they're going about it  And I am in Universtity, thankyou If you disagree with me, then hell, go right ahead. Break down my arguement with facts. If all you're going to respond with is agression, and telling me how stupid I am, then you're not really mature enough to debate with me  |
I am more mature than you; as represented by the fact that I HAVE broken down your arguments with facts. Unlike you, I do not currently have time to cite sources... but what I present to you is abstract facts, nontheless.
I haven't said you're stupid Seraphina. I know you are not. Ignorance has to do with close-mindedness and conceit; which you seem to have in no short supply. This is not ALWAYS a bad thing, and can be an admirable trait. But in an argument, it leaves you at a disadvantage... as you always believe that you have an advantage, no matter what is said, and encourages you to ignore others arguments (as you have been doing) since you find yourself above them. This is the reason that I questioned wether you attending university; as typically, the close-minded better-than-thou attitude does not equal success at that academic level.
You know, I do apologize for being so harsh on you. In many ways, I admire you and find you a fun and fascinating online persona. But the fact that you ignore everything you don't want to see is something that I CANNOT ignore.
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"What do you mean IF these walls could talk?"
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#19
Seraphina
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:15 PM
| QUOTE |
| A.) Your SIGNATURE; just for one. |
I've explained that one several times...why do people keep bringing up the same arguement to use against me
| QUOTE |
| B.) I am accepting of others opinions when they are accepting of mine... I do not feel that I have to accept the opinions of another who is not willing to listen to my own. I listened to you and respected your opinions until you began to piss me off on a regular basis. |
So to piss you off, I have to disagree with you
I've not disregarded anything you've said, merely argued against it. You, on the other hand, in launching into a temper tantrum as you seem to be now, are the one disregarding mine in favour of a hostile repsonse.| QUOTE |
| C.) I agree that they're making a complete mess of the situation in Iraq. And disagree with you in saying that the US media hasn't portrayed this. They have, quite well. The problem with the media you're subscribing to is it's bias. The US media both assaults the US for it's mistakes, and pats it on the back for it's accomplishments. The European media, on the other hand, seems to crucify the US for it's mistakes, and either brush over or completely ignore it's accomplishments. |
I doubt that, in fact if Blair was given any more shining an example of how wonderful the US and this struggle to releave the people of Iraq is, we'd probably be blind. Perhaps it's you who have the misconception of exactly how much foreigners hate you?
I'm pointing out what I see as the gaping holes in one line of thought about what your government is reporting over Iraq, that's about it.| QUOTE |
| I can roll my eyes all day long too, but it won't accomplish anything. |
Probably not, we're both pretty hard headed
Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...
#20
soulfire78
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:23 PM
So it was a US ambassador to Irag...not an Iraqi ambassador to the US....I see.
The idea of government intelligence is a bit of an oxymoron. Here you have all these university ivy league educated people running around trying to figure out how to best spend all the money they didn't earn, and doing a miserable job of it.
As far as Iraq is concerned, the US so far appears to have made a mistake. However, if the Iraqi people (and the international community) are really so mad about having Saddam gone, then I propose that we fix the problem. Pull out the troops and send them back to their families. Let the Iraqi's keep all the money we (the US) have already poured into repairing what was broken BEFORE we got there (incuding the ancient marshes that Saddam ordered drained to kill the Marsh Arab People). Then we should really find out where Saddam is and put him back in power. I'm sure thay want to go back to having a madman that would murder his own familymembers as the leader of their country again. (If you haven't noted my sarcasm by now, you're slow.) I can tell you, if the US weren't occupying Iraq, maybe Bush could concentrate on the issues waiting for him on the homefront, and it would take a lot of economic pressure off of the US's already depressed economy.
The idea of government intelligence is a bit of an oxymoron. Here you have all these university ivy league educated people running around trying to figure out how to best spend all the money they didn't earn, and doing a miserable job of it.
As far as Iraq is concerned, the US so far appears to have made a mistake. However, if the Iraqi people (and the international community) are really so mad about having Saddam gone, then I propose that we fix the problem. Pull out the troops and send them back to their families. Let the Iraqi's keep all the money we (the US) have already poured into repairing what was broken BEFORE we got there (incuding the ancient marshes that Saddam ordered drained to kill the Marsh Arab People). Then we should really find out where Saddam is and put him back in power. I'm sure thay want to go back to having a madman that would murder his own familymembers as the leader of their country again. (If you haven't noted my sarcasm by now, you're slow.) I can tell you, if the US weren't occupying Iraq, maybe Bush could concentrate on the issues waiting for him on the homefront, and it would take a lot of economic pressure off of the US's already depressed economy.
She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that 's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impair'd the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o'er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.
And on that cheek, and o'er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!
Lord Byron
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that 's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impair'd the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o'er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.
And on that cheek, and o'er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!
Lord Byron
#21
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:30 PM
Saxcatz is right Sera,
Our news agencies, are always on top of the government, when there is need. If ANYONE had a good piece of evidence of anything that would implicate our policy makers in scandal, of any kind, a US news agency, would scoop that up. We would be the first to put it out there on front street.
As far as the Sera bashing.. I know you understand where this is coming from. At every opportunity you make comments about how blind we are, how we are being decieved, etc. You have to know when writing that, it will spark anger in some people. (I am the front runner on that list) I say, stick to the facts, and if you want to discuss something concerning US politics, then ask some of the many well informed people here. (Homer, Nancy, Magikman, etc..) They will give you the straight scoop.
Reese
(Sera, I like what you post as well) Stubborn as all hell, but entertaining and MOSTLY knowledgable.
Our news agencies, are always on top of the government, when there is need. If ANYONE had a good piece of evidence of anything that would implicate our policy makers in scandal, of any kind, a US news agency, would scoop that up. We would be the first to put it out there on front street.
As far as the Sera bashing.. I know you understand where this is coming from. At every opportunity you make comments about how blind we are, how we are being decieved, etc. You have to know when writing that, it will spark anger in some people. (I am the front runner on that list) I say, stick to the facts, and if you want to discuss something concerning US politics, then ask some of the many well informed people here. (Homer, Nancy, Magikman, etc..) They will give you the straight scoop.
Reese
(Sera, I like what you post as well) Stubborn as all hell, but entertaining and MOSTLY knowledgable.
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#22
Seraphina
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:37 PM
| QUOTE (reese2 @ Nov 13 2003, 06:30 PM) |
| At every opportunity you make comments about how blind we are, how we are being decieved, etc. |
That's not...strictly true
I spend a great deal of time raising an eyebrow over conspiracy theorists too. I do think there IS a limit to how much the government keeps from the public.In any case...my belief that you're not privy to everything that's going on comes largly from the fact that...well, for example, I gave my arguement earlier here, and the responce I got was
| QUOTE |
| bla bla bla bla bla bla |
etc
Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...
#23
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:46 PM
Seraphina- you softy..........
You know the whole blah blah blah thing was more out of frustration, than Saxcatz putting forth a compelling argument....
Reese
You know the whole blah blah blah thing was more out of frustration, than Saxcatz putting forth a compelling argument....
Reese
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#24
Seraphina
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:49 PM
Yeah, I just thought my way of putting it was funnier
whoops, return key posted instead of taking a new line..one sec, gotta add on to this
*coughs* friggin i.e...Microsoft...if ANYONE'S an evil organisation bent on world domination....
Anyway...I suppose my opinion comes from the fact that the moment anything that implied the US was botching up the Iraq occupation was mentioned, me and those others that stated it were showered in nay saying. An attempt to argue back seems to, ultimately, have lead to being accused of ignorance, orin my case being patronised as though I were a child My veiws don't just randomly pop into my head while I'm watching rugrats you know.
While accusing me of being closed minded, it seems that again and again, I'm encountered by people who argue that my ideas must be wrong, because I'm 19, and "don't know enough about the world". True, I'm not the most hardened veteren currently living in society, but I'm still able to form an opinion based on the facts as I see them.
This strange idea that young people don't know what they're talking about seems to be the more arrogant and conceted idea than anything I've yet to do or say. Dismissing me on the basis of my age, and 'worldy experience', regardless of where I get my facts or information is dumbfounding at best
whoops, return key posted instead of taking a new line..one sec, gotta add on to this
*coughs* friggin i.e...Microsoft...if ANYONE'S an evil organisation bent on world domination....
Anyway...I suppose my opinion comes from the fact that the moment anything that implied the US was botching up the Iraq occupation was mentioned, me and those others that stated it were showered in nay saying. An attempt to argue back seems to, ultimately, have lead to being accused of ignorance, orin my case being patronised as though I were a child
My veiws don't just randomly pop into my head while I'm watching rugrats you know.While accusing me of being closed minded, it seems that again and again, I'm encountered by people who argue that my ideas must be wrong, because I'm 19, and "don't know enough about the world". True, I'm not the most hardened veteren currently living in society, but I'm still able to form an opinion based on the facts as I see them.
This strange idea that young people don't know what they're talking about seems to be the more arrogant and conceted idea than anything I've yet to do or say. Dismissing me on the basis of my age, and 'worldy experience', regardless of where I get my facts or information is dumbfounding at best
Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...
#25
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:50 PM
Yeah, it was................. 
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#26
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:12 PM
| QUOTE |
| This strange idea that young people don't know what they're talking about seems to be the more arrogant and conceted idea than anything I've yet to do or say. Dismissing me on the basis of my age, and 'worldy experience', regardless of where I get my facts or information is dumbfounding at best |
I used to say the same thing, when I was 19. I don't think that age is as much a factor, as the experience.. You simply don't know enough about life, with your limited life experience, unless you grew up fast and hard, to make a well rounded observation of something as complex as the US Government. You can read about it. But, you aren't here. You can assume, but you don't really know.
What you should do is start a thread about your Government. I am sure walking into that, you can criticize with a heavy hand, knowing that you do really know what is going on there.
Remember, the facts as you see them, change with maturity and experience. You should always be open to learning, that you have a lot more to learn.
So, have you ever been to the US, Sera???
Reese
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#27
Seraphina
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:24 PM
| QUOTE |
| So, have you ever been to the US, Sera??? |
Did Einstein ever visit a black hole?
Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...
#28
reese2
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:35 PM
| QUOTE (Seraphina @ Nov 13 2003, 02:24 PM) | ||
Did Einstein ever visit a black hole? |
So, that is a NO, right???
UA & Barman's Animated Avatar wish list, for the imaginative yet simple minded.... !!!
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell
Some of the most beautiful works of art, are often not work at all...
#29
moe eubleck
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may the horse of Caligula drop one in your senate building.
Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:43 PM
aahhh. I can feel the love here. Ive said it before : chemistry.
*shakes head at xeno for starting thread* you've really done it this time..
*shakes head at xeno for starting thread* you've really done it this time..
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#30
Seraphina
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Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:47 PM
That's a no However, I'm not out to get a detailed, first hand experience of US culture. My arguement is that the US is telling a different, and very much watered down picture of what's going on in Iraq. Even if your media is not, then your government certainly is. Every other country that is taking an interesting this affair is giving a far more gritty picture of Iraq right now, and the actions of the US troops there, than the sunny picture of progress that's more often than not painted by Bush.
My point is that the vast majority of americans (you don't need to go to the US to see this...just watching American tv programs, and online opinions about the war posted by US citizens) don't seem to know what's going on in Iraq. What has been seen from that direction is vastly different from the opinions of Europeans in general...now, it's true, for some odd reason, it COULD be the european press, manufacturing the news to discredit the US for whatever reason. The fact that they're all telling the same story hinting at an underground conspiracy to reduce the US's power, and showing how jealous we all are...
Or the US government could be trying to sugar coat their screw up.
That's the point I've been trying to make from the start, and for it I'm called ignorant...*shrugs*...o...kay
However, I'm not out to get a detailed, first hand experience of US culture. My arguement is that the US is telling a different, and very much watered down picture of what's going on in Iraq. Even if your media is not, then your government certainly is. Every other country that is taking an interesting this affair is giving a far more gritty picture of Iraq right now, and the actions of the US troops there, than the sunny picture of progress that's more often than not painted by Bush.My point is that the vast majority of americans (you don't need to go to the US to see this...just watching American tv programs, and online opinions about the war posted by US citizens) don't seem to know what's going on in Iraq. What has been seen from that direction is vastly different from the opinions of Europeans in general...now, it's true, for some odd reason, it COULD be the european press, manufacturing the news to discredit the US for whatever reason. The fact that they're all telling the same story hinting at an underground conspiracy to reduce the US's power, and showing how jealous we all are...
Or the US government could be trying to sugar coat their screw up.
That's the point I've been trying to make from the start, and for it I'm called ignorant...*shrugs*...o...kay
Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...
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