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Is the universe finite?


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#31    REBEL

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 04:53 AM

IMO, looking at it from a human perspective here on this tiny grain of sand called earth...Yes it is infinite.


#32    camlax

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 04:54 AM

The universe is infinite, the matter that exists withing the universe is finite. A newer hypothesis is our universe is an out pocketing of a larger universe.

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#33    Isis2200

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:22 AM

When I was a teen, I remember hearing about some scientists that detected some type of barrier or wall at the fringes of our universe.  Now, I can't comment on that too much because I don't know all the facts.

But recently, I heard an interview with a physicist who discussed the upcoming CERN experiment.  They believe that when that happens and they use these high energy particle accelerators, there is a possibility they could create mini-universes.  

Years ago, I thought that it was impossible that our universe could be finite because of the vastness of it.  Our human minds cannot even fathom how big the universe is.

Then about 6 months ago someone sent me a diagram showing how big the earth is compared to other celestial bodies.  We are so minute in the realm of things, and especially when you compare the gigantic Antares to the earth.  At one point on the scale, the earth disappears entirely.  This shows how very small we are indeed.

The same physicist mentioned above also stated what I believe could be true, and that is, if you believe in multi-universes, we could be a very tiny universe.   He also stated something shocking but possible and that is

"What if someone in another dimension created our universe by means of one of these high-energy particle accelerators."

As my friend would say "It's definitely something to chew on."  happy.gif

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Edited by Isis2200, 16 July 2007 - 05:33 AM.


#34    questionmark

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 01:13 PM

OK guys, this is what I remember from my discussion with cosmologists:

The matter occupied space in the universe is expanding and according to cosmologists ever since the big bang that created it. What is unclear is what lies beyond the confines of the matter occupied space. Some claim that there is nothing into which the universe expands, which to me does not sound to logical. Others claim that it is a vacuum, which leaves place for speculation (as done before in this thread) that there could be another universe somewhere in that vacuum.

Now any of these theories give room to different theorems.

If the universe is finite expanding into nothing, it could at some point quit extending, stop and contract again.

If on the other side the universe is expanding into a vacuum it will keep expanding forever until it reaches the confines of that vacuum.

Now to the question: is it finite or infinite. There is no clear answer. For most purposes infinite is assumed because it makes better equations. If we assume that it is finite we would have to include other, mostly insignificant, parameters into cosmological theories.

As I can imagine we are as far as before. And that is because nobody really knows the answer yet.



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#35    camlax

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 02:23 AM

Quote

If the universe is finite expanding into nothing, it could at some point quit extending, stop and contract again.

If on the other side the universe is expanding into a vacuum it will keep expanding forever until it reaches the confines of that vacuum.



Actually there has been quite a building evidence that the acceleration of the universe wont slow down. Now what happens after this infinite expansion? I tend to like the heat death hypothesis, around 1041 years and the universe is so far spread out that all protons decays! Better start selling  your protons now.

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#36    questionmark

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 01:21 PM

Quote

Actually there has been quite a building evidence that the acceleration of the universe wont slow down. Now what happens after this infinite expansion? I tend to like the heat death hypothesis, around 1041 years and the universe is so far spread out that all protons decays! Better start selling  your protons now.


Which could be right, our problem is that we would need at least half of 1041 years to confirm it. The other possibility is to get to the confines of the universe and have a look whats there.

Both wont happen in out lifetime so lets stay with hypothesis. That way we have something to do in those could winter nights when we sit in front of our fire with a bottle of Bordeaux. (Or as a good friend of mine says : When a physicist gets old his interest in cosmology and red wine grows)



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#37    Captain Kolak

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 07:16 PM

why do people think the universe as something solid? The edge of the universe is just radiation and all that ws present and the beggining of the universe. If the universe is expanding (which it is) then it is finate. Saying that the universe is expanding and that it is infinate is somewat illogical. True, it has no size because it is expanding, but that does not make it infinate. As for what it is expanding into, space. Space as in a vaccum. A vaccum that can be traversed, so then this "space" is both finite and infinate. Because you can keep moving in it forever but if your not mocing through it, then it doesn't relly exist. Also, this fits well into the multi universe theory and heat death end of the universe theory. Also, just because we humans do not have to ability to comprhend the size of the universe and all doesnt make it infinate. It has a size and certain amount of energy/matter/ etc.

Edited by Captain Kolak, 18 July 2007 - 07:18 PM.

Saying that gaps in the fossil record invalidate evolution is much like saying time doesn't exist between ticks of your digital watch

#38    Harte

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 10:32 PM

Captain,

You need to go and read the posts in this thread to see why you're wrong about the expansion:

My Favorite Thread

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#39    Captain Kolak

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:45 AM

Well obviously I'm not saying that I'm right. (I have a tendancy to sound like that......sry....), i ws reading the link u had but i still sorta stand by what I said.







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Saying that gaps in the fossil record invalidate evolution is much like saying time doesn't exist between ticks of your digital watch

#40    Harte

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 10:15 PM

Quote

Well obviously I'm not saying that I'm right. (I have a tendancy to sound like that......sry....), i ws reading the link u had but i still sorta stand by what I said.
Cap'n

Cap'n

Whatever you want to believe is fine with me, as long as you realize that you're only going on faith and a gut feeling, while the people at links available in the thread I linked spend their lives figuring this stuff out and making physical observations of the pertinant information.

If you read far enough into the linked thread, you'll see that several posters there, myself included, managed to change a few minds on this subject, or at least lead people to information that showed them what we were talking about.

The universe cannot possibly be expanding into empty space, for instance.  This is because it is only the space occupied by the universe that is expanding , and not the mass expanding through the space.  IOW, the expanding space is carrying the mass along with it.  There is simply no question that this is true.  You may, of course, choose not to believe it - like I said.  But that in no way changes the fact of the matter.

It's not like an explosion where the mass is flung out through space. In the case of the Big Bang, it was not a ball of mass that exploded, it was a ball of spacetime.

Harte



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#41    Eieam Wun

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:24 AM

Isis2200 on May 15 2007, 11:01 AM, said:

Hi Eieam Wun:

So what you're saying is that it could be comparable to air inside a balloon whereby as the air is pushed through the balloon, the balloon expands.  So if that barrier is very strong, it would cause the universe to contract, and if the barrier would not very strong(as is a balloon), the barrier would break from the force of the expansion of the universe and thus reveal what could be outside that barrier.

Interesting.

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...mmm not quite what I had in mind.  More like a physical barrier that is at some level solid that changes periodically into a gaseous stage allowing it to expand outward then resolidifying back into a solid thus creating more space kinda what I meant.

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#42    Admiral Danger

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 02:18 PM

its kinda obvious that it's round, all the planets and stars we see are round, the expansion could be compared to something that can expand on earth, for example foam.

thats a very interesting story about the shark and how it tried to eat you, but it still doesnt answer my question.  where the hell is my sandwitch!?

#43    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:33 PM

dr alien on May 22 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

its kinda obvious that it's round,

It is?

dr alien on May 22 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

all the planets and stars we see are round.

Even if this were true (it isn't, see below) what about galaxies, the vast majority of which are nothing like spherical.

To say that all the planets and stars we see are round is simply incorrect. Jupiter, for example, is noticeably oblate (flattened at the poles). This is as a result of its fast rotation rate. Many stars are very oblate. Smaller objects, such as asteroids, are mostly irregular.

Why you think the shape of stars and galaxies has any barring on the overall shape of the universe I can not even hazard a guess at.

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf, 22 May 2008 - 06:34 PM.

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#44    Admiral Danger

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:14 PM

i said that its round, that means that there are no corners, how often do you see a comet shaped like a cube.

thats a very interesting story about the shark and how it tried to eat you, but it still doesnt answer my question.  where the hell is my sandwitch!?

#45    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:16 PM

dr alien on May 22 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

i said that its round, that means that there are no corners, how often do you see a comet shaped like a cube.

Have you seen a picture of a comet nucleus? Clearly not because round is not the word you would use if you had.

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