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Ancient Egyptians in South America


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#1    bornagainuhmanduh

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:20 PM

Hello!  I am brand spankin' new here and I hope that someone will find this topic as interesting as I do.  I recently came across a few websites that claimed there is evidence of Egyptians and possibly other ancient civilizations having visited and traded with ancient south and central americans.  Does anyone know of any physical evidence of this?  The only connection I was able to come up with (and this will sound strange to some)  is the odd physical similarities between the native canines of egypt and south and central america.  Specifically the Pharaoh hound and the Peruvian Inca Orchid dog.  I recently noticed this similarity while at a dog breed info site.  Here are the links:  http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pharaohhound.htm          http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/peruvianincaorchid.htm  
I couldn't find any information whatsoever on this so I was hoping some of you could take a look and tell me what you think.  Also if anyone else has any other supporting evidence outside of my "dog theory" I would appreciate hearing from you.  

Thanks!

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#2    rezna

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:42 PM

The only place that I've seen any theories on this was in the book "Gateway to Atlantis" by Andrew Collins, one of my favorite books.  He took 10 years to research everything about Atlantis.  He goes over every possible hypothesis.  In the back of the book are appendices that go over some cool topics.  He talks about the shells that wash up on the chilean coast.  When you crush them, purple dye comes out.  He thinks that it could be possible that either the Phoenicians taught the Peruvians this and how to dye their stuff with the awesome purple dye, or vice versa.  How else would both cultures figure it out?  Also, he talks about different idols/statues/figurines that have been found in south america which look like phoenicians, and were made well before the spanish came to south america.  they also have figures that look like sumo wrestlers.  

Besides this, have you heard of the cocaine mummies?  probably the best evidense that no one will give any credence to.  There are mummies with cocaine in their bodies.  Cocaine can only be grown in south america, at least at that time.  And especially at that time in history, you had to travel somewhere to get something like cocaine, there werent airplanes or ships or anything to send it in the mail.  How on earth did these mummies get cocaine in their system unless they somehow traded it?  Which means someone had to be trading with someone who had cocaine.  "Other claims of contacts with Egypt were based on reports that some chemical tests run on Egyptian mummies had found traces of plant products native to the Americas, such as tobacco and coca, which some have proposed were brought to them by Carthaginian merchants. Most Egyptologists, however, would rather ascribe those results to modern contamination or some other experimental error until they are verified by other scientists."

Now remember, some people still think that America was discovered by Chris Columbus, which is ridiculous, so it will take a long time for some people to digest these ideas.  But I think it is TOTALLY probable that some people came to the North American or South American continent well before we currently accept.

"In 1947, Norwegian writer Thor Heyerdahl sailed for over 6,900 km across the Pacific, from Callao in Peru to the Raroia atoll in Tuamotu Islands, on the Kon-Tiki, a balsawood raft built after ancient Peruvian designs. In 1969, Heyerdahl turned to the Atlantic, and sailed 6,400 km from Safi in Morocco to Barbados in the Ra II, a reed boat of ancient Egyptian design. The Frenchman Alain Bombard had already done a similar trip in 1952, starting from the Canaries. Bombard sailed in a modern inflatable boat, but alone and without taking any food or water reserves.
In 1977, Irish writer Tim Severin sailed from Brandon Creek on Ireland's Dingle Peninsula to Newfoundland in a currach made with 6th century Irish designs and materials namely, oxhides stretched over a wooden frame. "  

It is obviously possible to cross these oceans.

Here's a GREAT wikipedia article about this very subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian...oceanic_contact


Graham Hancock is another guy who believes in the world culture theory.  He has a lot of books.

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#3    Aztec Warrior

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:10 PM

You could go to Oaxaca Mexico....to a site called Monte Alban....they have a sculpture of Cleopatra.

Those ruins date to the time of the Egyptians.....

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#4    jaylemurph

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:11 AM

There are also, I believe, mummies with traces of nicotine in them, which poses the same problems that cocaine does.

My biggest problem is that the Egyptians weren't (as far as I know) big explorers, unlike the Greeks or Romans or Pheonicians, who planted colonies hundreds and thousands of miles away from their homelands. Why would they /go/ to South America?

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#5    bornagainuhmanduh

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:51 AM

Thanks for all the great info rezna!  The mummies are truly fascinating.  It seems ludicrous to claim that they were contaminated by modern day cigarette smoke while sitting around in the back room of the museum.  Plus that really doesn't explain the cocaine found in the body tissues.  Now, in response to Jaylemurph: maybe the cocaine and the nicotine were exactly why the Egyptians explored or ventured to the Americas.  It could have been an "accidental" discovery or perhaps they came by the geographical knowledge through other explorers like the Phoenicians, etc.  I have come across purported evidence of heiroglyphs in South America and Australia and something about Kangaroo skeletons in Egypt.  It seems unfortunate that most of these artifacts are not even considered for verification.  I have also read of roman coins being discovered in Pre-Columbian graves throughout North America and Mexico but all of these are either unsubstantiated or shrouded in secrecy.   I realize that there isn't a lot of information in historical documents supporting this but maybe there have been other dark ages or similar events.  After all, there have even been a few popes who were struck from the record by the catholic church.

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#6    Leonardo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 01:29 AM

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There are also, I believe, mummies with traces of nicotine in them, which poses the same problems that cocaine does.

My biggest problem is that the Egyptians weren't (as far as I know) big explorers, unlike the Greeks or Romans or Pheonicians, who planted colonies hundreds and thousands of miles away from their homelands. Why would they /go/ to South America?

--Jaylemurph


The theory is not that the Egyptians went to the Americas, but the ancient Chinese may have. There is some evidence for contact and trade among the ancient Eurasian cultures from the ancient Britons in the west across through the rest of Europe and North Africa/the Middle East, across the sub-continent and into the Far East and China. While travel/trade could have been by sea a land -based trade route (a la the Silk Road) is also a possibility.

High value goods, such as cocaine, could have been a lucrative trade for an enterprising merchant wishing to invest in these lengthy trips. If the Chinese had negotiated the coast up to and across the Bering Strait then down the West Coast of the Americas it is possible to see how such ancient trade may have taken on a truly global aspect. While the evidence for this is circumstantial (like the cocaine mummies) it is not beyond the realms of possibility and certainly within the capabilities of these cultures.

Here is a transcript of the tv documentary about the Cocaine Mummies.

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#7    jaylemurph

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:00 AM

I believe the most renowned claims for Chinese visitation of the Americas is Gavin Menzies' 1421. Unfortunately, the late date doesn't coincide with ancient Egyptian period.


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#8    fantazum

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:13 AM

Quote

Hello!  I am brand spankin' new here and I hope that someone will find this topic as interesting as I do.  I recently came across a few websites that claimed there is evidence of Egyptians and possibly other ancient civilizations having visited and traded with ancient south and central americans.  Does anyone know of any physical evidence of this?  The only connection I was able to come up with (and this will sound strange to some)  is the odd physical similarities between the native canines of egypt and south and central america.  Specifically the Pharaoh hound and the Peruvian Inca Orchid dog.  I recently noticed this similarity while at a dog breed info site.  Here are the links:  http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pharaohhound.htm          http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/peruvianincaorchid.htm  
I couldn't find any information whatsoever on this so I was hoping some of you could take a look and tell me what you think.  Also if anyone else has any other supporting evidence outside of my "dog theory" I would appreciate hearing from you.  

Thanks!



very interesting. I also notice that not only are the dogs similar in size and weight but also in temperament.
Of course we have very little evidence for contact between ancient egyptian and south  american cultures but it is possible. The problem is that the classical period of south american culture appeared long after the egyptian one had disappeared but we can answer this disparity by pointing to the ancient Olmecs who achieved a high culture around the same time as the egyptian classical period. Many archaeologists now believe that all later south american cultures were founded on the Olmec one.


#9    Leonardo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:47 AM

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I believe the most renowned claims for Chinese visitation of the Americas is Gavin Menzies' 1421. Unfortunately, the late date doesn't coincide with ancient Egyptian period.
--Jaylemurph


Yes, as I said the evidence is circumstantial. It is interesting to note that no one will dispute that the Americas may have been discovered some 12,000BCE (or before) by migrating Asian peoples crossing a land bridge then existent across the Bering Strait, yet will not accept that a second discovery could have been made by the very capable cultures around 2-3000BCE (or maybe a bit later).

I'm not accusing you of this, jaylemurph, this is a general statement I make.

We have no written account of the building of the Pyramids, yet the evidence they were [built] is plain to see. We have no written account of ancient transcontinental trade yet the evidence (cocaine, nicotine in Europe/North Africa) would also appear to be plain. Notwithstanding the theory that species of plants capable of being reduced to provide cocaine, nicotine etc may have existed in Africa/Asia in ancient time and may simply have become extinct the transcontinental trade theory is still worthy of consideration.

Edited by Leonardo, 06 February 2007 - 08:48 AM.

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#10    BlueZone

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:36 PM

Here's a link showing ancient carvings of goddesses in India holding ears of South American corn.
http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku/dif/wmzpix1.htm

If you Google the words "Brazil", "shipwreck", and "Roman" together you will find lots of sites referring to a Roman shipwreck off the Brazilian coast.

It seems like, if these civilizations sailed to the Americas, ancient Egyptians could have too.

Edited by BlueZone, 06 February 2007 - 02:51 PM.


#11    oOo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:35 PM

The Maori peoples of New Zealand had as part of their staple diet, the Kumara, which is a type of potato.  The kumara is of American origin, a wild species of Ipomoea found in Mexico.  The Kumara has been cultivated in NZ (or Aotearoa as it was known in pre-European times) since the fourteenth century A.D, and this date is conservative as archaeological excavations point to an earlier date of introduction to NZ.  
Nothing to do with Egyptians in South America I know, tho it's another bit of proof that the Americas weren't so isolated pre Chris Columbus as was once thought.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptians scored their coke via the Phoenicians.  



#12    Harte

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 05:18 PM

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You could go to Oaxaca Mexico....to a site called Monte Alban....they have a sculpture of Cleopatra.

Those ruins date to the time of the Egyptians.....


Sorry Aztec, but this is exactly the sort of claim that screams for a good debunking.

Monte Alban dates to about 900 BC, which I suppose is old enough to be considered "Ancient " if you want, and the Egyptians were around then, yes, (as they are today.)

Monte Alban was deserted by 700 AD, BTW.

Cleopatra was the last of the Greek rulers of Egypt, the Ptolemaic Pharoahs.  She was deposed and died in 30 BC.  This time frame does allow for the construction of her statue in Monte Alban.

The problem is, the Egyptians of that time were speaking and writing in hieroglyphics, greek and demotic.  Excellent records from that time are in our possession.

The Greeks had ruled over them for a century or two and the Romans had been dominating them for quite some time as well.  When did they sneak off to Mexico to make this statue, right under the eyes of the Romans and the Greeks, and completely escape the notice of the entire known world at the time?

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There are also, I believe, mummies with traces of nicotine in them, which poses the same problems that cocaine does.

--Jaylemurph


The contaminated mummies have been well explained.  People today don't realize what Europeans were up to in the early 1800's.  Mummies, for example, were once used as firewood.  There was a medication, known as Mummia, which was sold all over Europe at the time.  It consisted of ground-up mummies, "mummy dust," if you will.

People with enough money used to hold "mummy unwrapping" parties.  The handful of mummies with the cocaine and nicotine contamination have been shown to have been present at several such private soirees, primarily in Germany, where nicotine and cocaine were regularly used.  It should be noted by all that once these contaminants had been found, there was a rush to test all the mummies that could be tested.  Other than the handful known today, no other mummy from any era has ever tested psoitive for these contaminants.  How do we explain this, if these drugs were in use in Egypt during the era of the Ancient Egyptian Civilization?

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#13    Leonardo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:05 PM

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The contaminated mummies have been well explained.  People today don't realize what Europeans were up to in the early 1800's.  Mummies, for example, were once used as firewood.  There was a medication, known as Mummia, which was sold all over Europe at the time.  It consisted of ground-up mummies, "mummy dust," if you will.

People with enough money used to hold "mummy unwrapping" parties.  The handful of mummies with the cocaine and nicotine contamination have been shown to have been present at several such private soirees, primarily in Germany, where nicotine and cocaine were regularly used.  It should be noted by all that once these contaminants had been found, there was a rush to test all the mummies that could be tested.  Other than the handful known today, no other mummy from any era has ever tested psoitive for these contaminants.  How do we explain this, if these drugs were in use in Egypt during the era of the Ancient Egyptian Civilization?

Harte


Indeed 'mummy parties' were in vogue for a while. It was also the done thing, in the 16th century to actually consume parts of mummies (don't even go there). This led to unscrupulous characters 'manufacturing' mummies by disinterring the recently buried and preparing them as if mummified.

There are tests, however, to determine whether a mummy is genuine or not and at least some of the mummies tested were shown to be so. Also there was at least one mummy with a nicotine content 25 times the level of a heavy smoker. This cannot be explained by the mummy being contaminated from an external source and it is now believed that nicotine may have been used as part of the mummification process (for a while at least). It has a strong anti-bacterial action and could have been used as a preservative.

Other mummies from other cultures (and presumably different time periods) have tested positive for these drugs

Quote

And if that wasn't enough, it turned out that the results from the Munich mummies were not the only evidence from the dead. The anthropologists who originally ordered the tests didn't continue the project. But Balabanova, alongside her normal research into the metabolism of drugs started requesting samples of other ancient human remains from universities. And it was then that she got more results from Egypt.

She tested tissue from 134 naturally preserved bodies from an excavated cemetery in the Sudan, once part of the Egyptian empire. Although from a later period, the bodies were still many centuries before Columbus discovered the Americas. About a third of them tested positive for nicotine and cocaine.

Balabanova was mystified by the presence of cocaine in Africa but thought she might have a way of explaining the nicotine. As well as Egypt and the Sudan, she tested bodies from China, Germany and Austria, spanning a period from 3700BC to 1100AD. A percentage of bodies from all these other regions also contained nicotine.

[Graph showing presence of nicotine: Percentage of bodies with positive result - Egypt:89% Sudan:90% China:62.5% Germany:34% Austria 100%]


This is from the link I posted. Now the cocaine and nicotine CAN be explained if there was some plants, now extinct, from the families of both which grew and were available in Europe/Africa in ancient times and from which the drug(s) could be extracted. There are indeed plants of these families that grow in these areas, but the drug cannot be extracted from them.

Edited by Leonardo, 06 February 2007 - 06:44 PM.

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#14    NME_locus

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:34 PM

Quote

The theory is not that the Egyptians went to the Americas, but the ancient Chinese may have. There is some evidence for contact and trade among the ancient Eurasian cultures from the ancient Britons in the west across through the rest of Europe and North Africa/the Middle East, across the sub-continent and into the Far East and China. While travel/trade could have been by sea a land -based trade route (a la the Silk Road) is also a possibility.

High value goods, such as cocaine, could have been a lucrative trade for an enterprising merchant wishing to invest in these lengthy trips. If the Chinese had negotiated the coast up to and across the Bering Strait then down the West Coast of the Americas it is possible to see how such ancient trade may have taken on a truly global aspect. While the evidence for this is circumstantial (like the cocaine mummies) it is not beyond the realms of possibility and certainly within the capabilities of these cultures.

Here is a transcript of the tv documentary about the Cocaine Mummies.


I have read that they did fnd a ancient chinese map of the americas that is around 500 years older than Columbus' map. The Phoeniciansalso were there first.


#15    rezna

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:38 PM

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People with enough money used to hold "mummy unwrapping" parties. The handful of mummies with the cocaine and nicotine contamination have been shown to have been present at several such private soirees, primarily in Germany, where nicotine and cocaine were regularly used.


Harte,

I've noticed that when I see your beating heart avatar my heart begins to beat a little faster expecting whatever were talking about to be skepticized.   (kewl word smithing there eh?)
Where are you getting this information from?  Who has "shown" that those mummies, all of them, were at these soirees?  And I find ithard to believe that Zahi Hawass would let any researchers go around testing every single mummy for cocaine.  From what I know, they have not tested every single mummy and come to the conclusion that all of them have been contaminated.  And what does this show about anthropologists?  are they a bunch of cocaine addicts or something?  how are they contaminating these mummies?  makes them look bad doesn't it?  I can understand the nicotine but not the cocaine.

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