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If A Tree Falls In The Woods...


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#46    Swandancer

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

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you missunderstand, i know that the vibrations are there, but as someone mentioned above it comes down to the definition of sound, if something is not heard, it is not sound, it's just all the vibrations. the avalanche is not triggered by sound, it's triggered by vibrations. technically, if no one hears it, it's not a sound.

The question that keeps plaguing me is an expansion on the OP of this thread.

If a tree that falls in the forest doesn't make a sound because no one is there to hear it, then was it even 'there' to fall if no one was there to "see" it?

We have probably all seen fallen trees, and many of them must have fallen when no one was around. So how is that possible if it's just a wavefunction or vibrational frequency when not being 'observed'?

"We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace."

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#47    Silent_One

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 01:15 AM

Hmmm... Interesting examples cheo_vl
However, just because everyone in the entire world was ignorant to the fact that such a civilization existed on the moon does not mean that last week the civilization did not exist, it just means that no one had knowledge of it's existence. Ignorance cannot blink something out of existence.  
If I am locked in a dark closet my entire life never knowing anyone else and no one ever knowing me then my knowledge of anyone else is non-existent just as their knowledge of me is non-existent. Everyone who exists still exists I am just ignorant to the fact that they exist just as they are ignorant to the fact that I exist.
A spider just came out from under my T.V. I had no knowledge that it was under my T.V. until in crawled out from under it and neither did anyone else in the whole world. I can now say that I was the first to witness it's existence, but how can I really truly say that it was not under my T.V. because I had no witness of it? The spider existed under the T.V. what did not exist was knowledge of it's existence.
Perception does not bring things into existence it serves as a witness to things that already exist.

I've never read that sound had to be heard in order to be called sound before and also I was thinking about what you said about giving a new word for an almost sound, but how about this...

You and many others see sound as only what is perceived so only making it a mental thing.
I and many others see sound as a physical thing - vibrations in matter. So when you hear it you are just witnessing it.
So we can then split it into two titles for the two definitions of sound.... something like... sound perceived and sound motion... or mental sound and physical sound.... or maybe someone can come up with more creative names... and add a little spunk... Idk...  mellow.gif

Maybe then everyone will be happy. >_>

Edited by Silent_One, 10 March 2007 - 01:27 AM.

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#48    cladking

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 01:20 AM

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The question that keeps plaguing me is an expansion on the OP of this thread.

If a tree that falls in the forest doesn't make a sound because no one is there to hear it, then was it even 'there' to fall if no one was there to "see" it?

We have probably all seen fallen trees, and many of them must have fallen when no one was around. So how is that possible if it's just a wavefunction or vibrational frequency when not being 'observed'?


Sound is vibration.  The hammer in the ear vibrates when the ear drum is
vibrated and transmits this energy, with higher amplitude to the coclia where
sensitive nerve fibers are fired dependent on the frequency of the vibrations.  
The bain interprets this data.  

As stated before, you can define your terms so that a brain is required but why
make the world so complicated.  Does the tree make a sound if it doesn't awaken
a sleeping camper but causes him to dream of storms?  How about someone in a
coma?  

Can a tree falling make half a sound?  How about 1.7 x 10 ^-5 of a sound?  If an
intelligent person hears it does it make more sound than if the village idiot hears
it?  

Such things can be defined this way and then we can debate the number of angels
that can dance on the head of a pin.  

I believe all language is for communication so definitions have to be as exact and
succinct as is possible.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#49    Opus Magnus

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 01:37 AM

It really makes no sense to take a scientific approach to this scenerio, it's simply philosophical.


#50    Smeagol1

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 02:16 AM

thats a dumb question. of course there will be.


#51    Swandancer

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 03:02 AM

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thats a dumb question. of course there will be.


I have mentioned this Online Course in Consciousness from the University of Virginia before on some of these threads, and would like to do so again. Not only that, but the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know", especially the newer 6-hour version.

We are so very accustomed to believing everything science tells us is true, but all they are able to observe is their own reality which they are manifesting, and they won't be able to go further than that until they allow true Metaphysics into the mix.

Here is a very small excerpt from the Online Course which may help to explain what I said in my post:

Professor Sobottka states in the Preface:  We shall see that, from a sound, scientific point of view, not only is it impossible to understand the material world without considering the consciousness of its observer, but, in fact, it is Consciousness which manifests the world. However, it cannot be the individual consciousness of the observer that does this, but it must be nonlocal, universal Consciousness.

This is from Preface to Part 1: The assumption of an external reality is the assumption that there is a real world that is external to our mind and senses, and that it exists whether or not we as observers exist, and whether or not we are observing it. This assumption cannot be proved because all of our perceptions, without exception, are mental images, and we have no means to go beyond our mental images. It is one we all commonly make without even thinking about it. We assume the office and the computer in it are there after we leave work at the end of the day and will be there when we arrive at work in the morning. When we head home at the end of the day, we assume that our house or apartment will be there when we arrive, and that it continued to be there in our absence after we left in the morning. We assume that our friends, relatives, and acquaintances are there whether we can see and talk to them or not, and whether or not we are thinking about them. We assume that our parents existed before we were born, and that many of the people we know will be alive after we die. So many of our everyday experiences repeatedly confirm this assumption that most of us hardly question it. It is an assumption that has enormous survival value: we know that a speeding car can kill us while we are crossing the street absorbed in our thoughts and unaware, that a stray bullet can instantly obliterate our consciousness without warning, or that we can die from an external agent such as a virus, bacterium, or poison.

The assumption of external reality is necessary for science to function and to flourish. For the most part, science is the discovering and explaining of the external world. Without this assumption, there would be only the thoughts and images of our own mind (which would be the only existing mind) and there would be no need of science, or anything else.

In addition to the assumption of an external reality, we also make the assumption that this reality is objective. This is repeatedly confirmed by our daily experience as well as by scientific observations. Objectivity means that observations, experiments, or measurements by one person can be made by another person, who will obtain the same or similar results. The second person will be able to confirm that the results are the same or similar by consultation with the first person. Hence, communication is essential to objectivity. In fact, an observation that is not communicated and agreed upon is not generally accepted as a valid observation of objective reality. Because agreement is required, objective reality is sometimes called consensus reality.







"We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace."

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"For the mystic what is how. For the craftsman how is what. For the artist what and how are one."
William McElcheran


#52    cladking

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 03:15 AM

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We are so very accustomed to believing everything science tells us is true, but all they are able to observe is their own reality which they are manifesting, and they won't be able to go further than that until they allow true Metaphysics into the mix.



And herein is exactly why language should be composed of well defined
units; if everything is in one's mind then language is unimportant.  If the
rest of the world exists then they need to know what you're thinking.  If
a person is so foolish as to accept that everything must be as it appears
then it's his loss.  If a person doesn't accept anything but his conscious-
ness then it will be the world's loss when he steps in front of a car (assu-
ming "he" is wrong of course).  wink2.gif

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#53    magickaldan

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 03:45 AM

This is kinda like Schrodinger's Cat. But if you didn't hear the tree fall, then how did you know it fell at all.  If you knew it fell, then you could conclude yes it made sound. If you didn't hear/see/sense the tree fall, then the tree didn't fall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat


#54    cladking

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 05:04 AM

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This is kinda like Schrodinger's Cat. But if you didn't hear the tree fall, then how did you know it fell at all.  If you knew it fell, then you could conclude yes it made sound. If you didn't hear/see/sense the tree fall, then the tree didn't fall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat




That the tree fell is a given in the question.  

There are many ways to know a tree fell without being there to hear it.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#55    St Q

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 12:51 PM

This sounds like a good question for Dr. Robert Lanza.

Biocentric Proposal

He would probably answer by saying something like: "Reality only exists in the mind of the observer."

"If a tree falls" implies a hypothetical situation. We have no proof that the tree actually fell unless we are there to observe it. Therefore, we have no proof that a sound was actually made. Hypothetically speaking, all falling trees make noise. Relatively speaking, no falling tree makes a sound where no one exists. You're mixing apples with oranges. The question is flawed.

Edited by St Q, 10 March 2007 - 12:58 PM.

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#56    AsträlShaman

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 03:18 AM

That sounds right.


#57    cladking

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 04:00 AM

Quote

This sounds like a good question for Dr. Robert Lanza.

Biocentric Proposal

He would probably answer by saying something like: "Reality only exists in the mind of the observer."

"If a tree falls" implies a hypothetical situation. We have no proof that the tree actually fell unless we are there to observe it. Therefore, we have no proof that a sound was actually made. Hypothetically speaking, all falling trees make noise. Relatively speaking, no falling tree makes a sound where no one exists. You're mixing apples with oranges. The question is flawed.




I would have to point out that without a real tree the question has no meaning.  
If a tree doesn't fall then it will make no falling tree noise whether there is no
one there to hear it or not (or even not there to not hear it or not).

I agree the question is flawed.  Perhaps it should read, "When a tree..."

That reality exists only in the mind of the observer is evident.  That the characters
in my dream won't talk to me unless I use a common language is also evident.  So
long as "we" use a common language, why not use common definitions and grammar?  
Why muddy up language with hypotheticals and imponderables?

Trees exist. Falling trees make noise.  Noise is sound.  

I notice no answered my question about observers in diminished states.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#58    ethereal scout

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 02:26 AM

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if e tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?


does it matter?


#59    cheo_vl

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 05:41 PM

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does it matter?

this is one of the most ignorant comments i've ever heard, of course it matters. everything matters. you should try to understand everything around you even if it can't seem to be explained. you are a human, you are the only creature alive in this planet that can understand what's going on around you so start acting like it(i sound like an old grumpy guy but that's how i understand it). everything matters.


#60    Xenojjin

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 06:20 PM

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this is one of the most ignorant comments i've ever heard, of course it matters. everything matters. you should try to understand everything around you even if it can't seem to be explained. you are a human, you are the only creature alive in this planet that can understand what's going on around you so start acting like it(i sound like an old grumpy guy but that's how i understand it). everything matters.

Oh the irony.



In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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