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If A Tree Falls In The Woods...


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#481    Bo Frost

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 02:13 PM

cheo_vl on May 24 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

why is it so hard for people to imagine a fake scenario where there are no other beings in that forest except for the trees, people keep saying there will be animals there and stuff, NOOOO this is a fake universe, another reality that exists within our minds where there are no other creatures around "IF THERE IS NO ONE AROUND TO HEAR IT"


So, if it's a completely fake universe does that mean the tree is made out of cardboard? Is the physics the same? If there was no gravity, it wouldn't make much of a sound because it would float upwards...But seriously it makes a sound whether anyone is there or not. You can't hear it but the waves are produced and, probably, by the time they reach anyone they're to quiet to hear. And what if it knocks over other trees like a domino effect that travels toward populations? You'd hear that.



#482    Dalton O. M. Sihite~

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 12:47 AM

Animals hear the sound...
So even if no human hears the sound, the animals do so technically there still is a sound that is heard.


#483    lillasparks

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:01 PM

sound is a sound bec. it is detected by the ear
take away the sense of hearing a sound jus becomes vibrations
imagine if all HYPOTHETICAL SPEAKING creatures here on earth didn't or weren't born
with ear drums or any physical structure that will translate these vibrations as sounds in the brain.
those sound waves will  jus stay us vibrations to us
you need the SENSE OF HEARING to have the concept of sound
so if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one or anything to hear it
yes there are vibrations made that we termed as sound waves
but if there isn't again any ear drum or any structure to translate these vibration in their brain
as sound then there's no sound
oh pls. don't say god. or anyone belonging to the spiritual realm lols
ppl. get smart *** abt. this
this question is obviously jus limited to living earth creatures.


Edited by lillasparks, 04 June 2009 - 06:11 PM.


#484    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:10 PM

Alexander the Greatest on Jun 4 2009, 01:47 AM, said:

Animals hear the sound...
So even if no human hears the sound, the animals do so technically there still is a sound that is heard.


exactly.
something that has the ability to hear, was there and able to Witness (hear) that sound. therefore the sound is heard, despite us not being there to hear it.
otherwise its the equivalent to saying something stupid like "since i didnt see 911, did it happen?"

Edited by Agent. Mulder, 04 June 2009 - 06:11 PM.

the truth is out there....

#485    lillasparks

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:56 PM

Agent. Mulder on Jun 4 2009, 02:10 PM, said:

the equivalent to saying something stupid like "since i didnt see 911, did it happen?"


that is really something stupid. stupid to be compared to the concept of sound
well how wud u even know that there's an event like 911 if you didn't heard abt. if from sumone
who heard it from sumone who have heard it from sumone who witness the event.
the question of if a tree blah blah blah...is simply askin you if would sumthin be IN EXISTANCE IF THERE'S NO ONE OR ANYTHING TO
TRANSLATE ITS EXISTANCE

everything that we know to exist, exist because we have the senses to pick up their existance
that is why its hard for sum ppl. to believe that there are spirits around because none of their senses
have picked up their existance. but then when there senses do they suddenly become believers of their
existance.
so how does this have to do anything with sound. again as i've said before IF ALL CREATURES HERE ON EARTH
WERE BORN WITHOUT THE SENSE OF HEARING WOULD THERE BE THE CONCEPT OF SOUND AS A NOISE?
OFCOURSE NO.
that's why the question is if a tree falls in the forest. and no one <-- shud be no one or anything "HEARD" it. did it make "A SOUND"
so jus right there it clearly shows that the questions idea or concept of SOUND is based on whether sumeone or ANYTHING
HEARD IT!!
face it if sound is to be defined as energy of vibrations. well doesn't it make sense that they have to specifically
add the term sound to these vibrations bec. the concept of sound waves doesn't stand alone on the idea of vibrations.
its vibrations with noise.
sound isn't sound without noise
noise isn't noise without the sense of hearing


Edited by lillasparks, 04 June 2009 - 07:08 PM.


#486    Meiliken

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:40 AM

lillasparks on Jun 4 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

that is really something stupid. stupid to be compared to the concept of sound
well how wud u even know that there's an event like 911 if you didn't heard abt. if from sumone
who heard it from sumone who have heard it from sumone who witness the event.
the question of if a tree blah blah blah...is simply askin you if would sumthin be IN EXISTANCE IF THERE'S NO ONE OR ANYTHING TO
TRANSLATE ITS EXISTANCE

everything that we know to exist, exist because we have the senses to pick up their existance
that is why its hard for sum ppl. to believe that there are spirits around because none of their senses
have picked up their existance. but then when there senses do they suddenly become believers of their
existance.
so how does this have to do anything with sound. again as i've said before IF ALL CREATURES HERE ON EARTH
WERE BORN WITHOUT THE SENSE OF HEARING WOULD THERE BE THE CONCEPT OF SOUND AS A NOISE?
OFCOURSE NO.
that's why the question is if a tree falls in the forest. and no one <-- shud be no one or anything "HEARD" it. did it make "A SOUND"
so jus right there it clearly shows that the questions idea or concept of SOUND is based on whether sumeone or ANYTHING
HEARD IT!!
face it if sound is to be defined as energy of vibrations. well doesn't it make sense that they have to specifically
add the term sound to these vibrations bec. the concept of sound waves doesn't stand alone on the idea of vibrations.
its vibrations with noise.
sound isn't sound without noise
noise isn't noise without the sense of hearing


I really hope you don't write this way for your school work because the spelling and grammer are atrocious.  But anyway sound doesn't have to be heard for it to exist.  Since sound is simply vibrations that shake air molecules, the literal only way for there not to be sound would be to have the vibrations in space.  


The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself
Sir Richard Francis Burton

There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance
Hippocrates

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
David Hume

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
Aldous Huxley

#487    Guest_Bertrand_*

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:44 PM

I think this debate misses the point.  The question is a philosophical one pre-dating Berkeley; he simply used it to illustrate his theorem of reality and existence, that to be perceived is to exist.  Really, it was a debate between empiricism and subjective idealism.  The real crux is how much of what we perceive around us is "real" and how much is in our heads/imagination.

Essentially, Berkeley would claim that table A exists in this room because he or anything else (regardless of "consciousness") can perceive it as being in the room.  However, when everything that can perceive the table leaves the room, no one can claim that table A still exists.  Thus, Berkeley turned to a god to interpose and place the idea of table A in everyone's mind.  Thus, he added uniformity through god.  That addition has its own invalid arguments meant for another thread.  So, in sum, Berkeley was addressing existence of what we perceive in the world around us as a perception of a "real" thing versus just an "idea" of a thing.

Now, if we consider an empiricist's view, such as that of Locke, we see much of the debate taking place here.  The empiricists relied on concrete measurement of characteristics to verify something's "real" existence in the physical world.  However, they ran into the problem where despite measuring something, are we measuring our perception of some characteristic or the thing itself?  Really, the mind would separate reality from our understanding of reality.  So, Locke said things have primary and secondary characteristics.  Primary characteristics are a part of the thing measured and are inseparable from that thing.  But, secondary characteristics simply aren't intrinsic in the thing (is the color red intrinsic in a can of Coke?  Is it still there when we turn off the lights and cannot perceive it?).  The problem occurs with empiricism in determining exactly what gives rise to a characteristic and then determining what gave rise to that.  How far do we go until we verify the reality giving rise to whatever characteristic?  This is where Locke failed as much as Berkeley.  Anyway, this is the scientific part of the forum's debate, breaking down the definition of sound to scientific measurements of waves.

The crux is this:  there is no logically valid argument for the existence of a god, so Berkeley-supporters lose.  But to know something exists, it must be perceived by something or someone-- even a camera-- so Locke-supporters lose!  That is why the debate has continued for a few hundred years:  the two schools of philosophical theories are presented by their proponents mutually exclusively, but the question itself begs the two theories to overlap.  It is a conflict in the question!


#488    lillasparks

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 06:39 AM

Meiliken on Jun 9 2009, 04:40 AM, said:

I really hope you don't write this way for your school work because the spelling and grammer are atrocious.  But anyway sound doesn't have to be heard for it to exist.  Since sound is simply vibrations that shake air molecules, the literal only way for there not to be sound would be to have the vibrations in space.

if there's anything atrocious here its that attitude of urs. you complain way too much! not everyone has english as their first lang. so suck it up!

Edited by lillasparks, 13 June 2009 - 06:43 AM.


#489    Meiliken

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 07:03 AM

lillasparks on Jun 13 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

if there's anything atrocious here its that attitude of urs. you complain way too much! not everyone has english as their first lang. so suck it up!


Wow, no need to be snippy.  I didn't get an attitude at all.  I also rarely if ever complain, so really that statement is meaningless.  I actually didn't know that english wasn't your first language.  Around here, most people who write like that are very young.  An easy mistake, but really, your reaction to my post is a little overboard.  Calm down.

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself
Sir Richard Francis Burton

There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance
Hippocrates

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
David Hume

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
Aldous Huxley

#490    Blueguardian

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 04:32 PM

OK so 25 pages later and 489 comments and we still don't have an answer tongue.gif.

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#491    greggK

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 04:40 PM

lillasparks on Jun 4 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

that is really something stupid. stupid to be compared to the concept of sound
well how wud u even know that there's an event like 911 if you didn't heard abt. if from sumone
who heard it from sumone who have heard it from sumone who witness the event.
the question of if a tree blah blah blah...is simply askin you if would sumthin be IN EXISTANCE IF THERE'S NO ONE OR ANYTHING TO
TRANSLATE ITS EXISTANCE    

(Yeah, like if there was no observer to observe you, would you be you or someone else?)

everything that we know to exist, exist because we have the senses to pick up their existance
that is why its hard for sum ppl. to believe that there are spirits around because none of their senses
have picked up their existance. but then when there senses do they suddenly become believers of their
existance.
so how does this have to do anything with sound. again as i've said before IF ALL CREATURES HERE ON EARTH
WERE BORN WITHOUT THE SENSE OF HEARING WOULD THERE BE THE CONCEPT OF SOUND AS A NOISE?
OFCOURSE NO.
that's why the question is if a tree falls in the forest. and no one <-- shud be no one or anything "HEARD" it. did it make "A SOUND"
so jus right there it clearly shows that the questions idea or concept of SOUND is based on whether sumeone or ANYTHING
HEARD IT!!
face it if sound is to be defined as energy of vibrations. well doesn't it make sense that they have to specifically
add the term sound to these vibrations bec. the concept of sound waves doesn't stand alone on the idea of vibrations.
its vibrations with noise.
sound isn't sound without noise
noise isn't noise without the sense of hearing


I like that!

Edited by greggK, 13 June 2009 - 04:42 PM.

It is me!

#492    paa12

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 07:54 PM

The answer to this question is YES!  This is not a scientific question but a phillosophical one.   It is asking you if some sort of action  occurs and is not in your field of perception does it exist?
A self-centered person would say it doesn't exist since it doesn't affect that individual directly .As compared to a person who is  more empathetic


#493    willowdreams

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 08:35 PM

don't animals count? They hear sound. So if a tree falls and no human is there.. it makes sound.
something can hear it.



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#494    fandango

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 08:45 PM

Quote

id does NOT make a sound. sound is defined as vibrations traveling through air, water, or some other medium, especially those within the range of frequencies that can be perceived by the human ear. the simple answer is that sound is something that can be heard. if no one hears it there is no sound. until someone hears them


What about the wee beasties of the woods, im sure they would hear it and run the hell out of its way.

Boo hoo someone beat me too it no.gif

Edited by fandango, 10 July 2009 - 08:46 PM.


#495    Magicjax

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 07:47 PM

Sorry. I just had to add this because I use it sometimes in my comedy shows.

"If a tree falls in the woods and I'm the only one around to hear it. Does it make sound?"

For those of you that don't know. I'm deaf.  tongue.gif

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