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If A Tree Falls In The Woods...


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#496    Quake

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 04:52 AM

no matter if someone hears it or not , the vibrations ARE still considered sound , so yes , it does make a sound

When your the maniac , there's no one left to be afraid of

#497    .i.

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 05:14 PM

cheo_vl on Mar 2 2007, 05:21 PM, said:

if e tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

I don't know, maybe the tree spoke since there were no one around... dontgetit.gif

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#498    Hugh

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 03:11 AM

A sound is a vibration that is capable of being heard.

Whether or not it actually is heard is irrelevant.

The tree falls, it does make a sound.


#499    Xenojjin

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 10:11 AM

If a small rock full of life and dreams explodes in an endless universe of nothing , does it make a sound?



In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#500    momentarylapseofreason

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 01:26 AM

Leonardo on Mar 2 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

Yes it does. Sound is simply an energy and the effect this energy has on the surroundings can be measured after the fact. It is pompous of us to assume we have such influence as to be able to negate this by our absence.



I agree sound is energy, a vibration of various frequency.

It is there just as the wind is

If religion contained any truth, it could be ridiculed, insulted, even defiled without being diminished in any way. Its truth would shine through undimmed, unblemished, shaming those who abused it into silence. But that's not how things are. Religion is prickly, it's intolerant, it's ultra-defensive precisely because it's brittle and fragile.- Pat Condell

#501    St Q

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 11:31 AM

It really doesn't matter whether the tree made a sound or not.  Berkeley's point is being missed... and in some cases, dismissed.

If no one or no thing was there to perceive the sound of the felled tree, then the results were exactly the same as if it didn't happen at all.  In other words, the absence of perception is equal to the absence of the event.  This was Berkeley's point.

In comparison to Schrödinger's Cat, we really can't be sure of the facts until an observation is made.  Besides, just because felled trees have made sounds in their witnessed past, doesn't mean that all unwitnessed felled trees have made or will continue to make sounds.  Incongruities in nature have happened before; they're called "Unexplained Mysteries."

However, the one thing that we can be sure about is that philosophy is dead.  If Berkeley were alive today, he'd be an outcast of society -- a "dreamer" with "too much time on his hands."  To be sure.

"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true." - Niels Bohr.

#502    marsapien

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 01:42 PM

For some reason I keep seeing Jhon Saffron continully explaining himself to the monk and the monk keeps shaking his head and hitting him with a paddle.
Coens are designed to makes us do this.
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

The idea is to get so confused with the Coen (as in the many pages of answers we see here) until our brain freaks out and thinks of nothing and only then the answer to the allusive question will arise.

For me the answer to the question if a tree falls in a forrest and there is no one around to hear it does it still make a sound?
Is simply YES the sound is there if you hear it or not, just as the air is there whether you see it or not, and the lifeforce is there whether you feel it or not.

SO WHAT IS THE SOUND OF ONE HAND CLAPPING?

RIDDLE ME THAT ONE IF YOU DARE.


#503    Leonardo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 05:14 AM

St Q on Jul 19 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

It really doesn't matter whether the tree made a sound or not.  Berkeley's point is being missed... and in some cases, dismissed.

If no one or no thing was there to perceive the sound of the felled tree, then the results were exactly the same as if it didn't happen at all.  In other words, the absence of perception is equal to the absence of the event.  This was Berkeley's point.

In comparison to Schrödinger's Cat, we really can't be sure of the facts until an observation is made.  Besides, just because felled trees have made sounds in their witnessed past, doesn't mean that all unwitnessed felled trees have made or will continue to make sounds.  Incongruities in nature have happened before; they're called "Unexplained Mysteries."

However, the one thing that we can be sure about is that philosophy is dead.  If Berkeley were alive today, he'd be an outcast of society -- a "dreamer" with "too much time on his hands."  To be sure.


Berkeley's point was that the universe is a universe of ego. That we have moved on from this humanocentric pov and established a new paradigm of understanding based not entirely on our own ability to perceive as being the prime 'mover' of what happens in the universe does not imply that philosophy is dead at all.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

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#504    St Q

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 01:01 PM

Leonardo on Jul 19 2009, 11:14 PM, said:

Berkeley's point was that the universe is a universe of ego. That we have moved on from this humanocentric pov and established a new paradigm of understanding based not entirely on our own ability to perceive as being the prime 'mover' of what happens in the universe does not imply that philosophy is dead at all.

We must agree that Berkeley was not a stupid man.  He knew full well that the sound of a falling tree made noise whether anyone or anything perceived it or not.  His question was rhetorical.  He posed it as a thought-provoking quandary about our own reality.  When I said that philosophy was dead, I was addressing those who were stating the obvious answer and not the real meaning behind his logic.  Another way of rephrasing his question is: "How can you prove the existence of the sound if you can't prove the existence of the sound?"

I agree that we have advanced far beyond our egocentric points of view about the universe, but the newest paradigm of understanding our world, especially that based on quantum physics, seems to be pulling us back in again.  This may not vindicate Berkeley, but it may validate those who understood his logic.

In 1910, Ralph Barton Perry coined the term "egocentric predicament", which defined the problem of not being able to view reality outside of our own perceptions.  "All worldly knowledge takes the form of mental representations that our mind examines in different ways.  Direct contact with reality cannot be made outside of our own minds; therefore, we cannot be sure reality even exists."  This means that we are each limited to our own perceptual world.

Like a dream, we each view our own reality separately, but unlike a dream, we are able to share in it.  Every once in a while, one or more of us view it differently, and that's why we're here on this forum.

If I didn't perceive an event and cannot prove the event, I cannot testify that it happened.  That is pure and simple.

"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true." - Niels Bohr.

#505    Mac E

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 01:28 PM

cladking on Mar 2 2007, 03:35 PM, said:

And if anyone asks, the egg came first because being hatched is a defining
characteristic of being a chicken.  The egg was laid by a chicken-like animal.


I totally agree!  According to evolutionary theory, the egg came first.

As far as the tree is concerned, it does produce sound waves when it falls.  Who cares if someone is around to hear it.  That is like saying stars only shine when we are looking at them.  Very egotistical.

In the beginning there were only probabilities. The universe could only come into existence if someone observed it. It does not matter that the observers turned up several billion years later. The universe exists because we are aware of it.

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#506    marsapien

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:35 PM

So no one attempted to answer my Coen.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?


#507    .i.

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 11:34 PM

View Postmarsapien, on Jul 24 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

So no one attempted to answer my Coen.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Slight breeze?

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#508    Number Fingers

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 12:12 AM

View PostLeonardo, on Jul 20 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Berkeley's point was that the universe is a universe of ego. That we have moved on from this humanocentric pov and established a new paradigm of understanding based not entirely on our own ability to perceive as being the prime 'mover' of what happens in the universe does not imply that philosophy is dead at all.

It'd be interesting to think that all human civilization is just a reaction to sound that we don't hear: a group of insects scamper away from the sound of a tree falling; allowing a bird to feast on them all; which then becomes a meal for a tiger; and now because the tiger has enough food it goes back to its den and gets caught by hunters who just happen to be poaching at the right time.  Now the tiger is extinct and the members of the National Park in which this happened force the government to quit which results in anarchy, which results in civil war that leads to the death of millions.

A universe of ego that sees these events shaped by our own actions.

All because of the sound of a tree falling.
Human civilization is just a reaction to a sound that we don't hear.


#509    greggK

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 07:46 PM

Is the question, 'If a tree falls in a forest, would the rest of the trees hear it?'  Does the forest of trees have a collective mind?

It is me!

#510    marsapien

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 02:31 AM

View Postbrawl, on Jul 25 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

Slight breeze?
And a shake of the butt  :P
thanks I'm glad someone gave it a go.





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