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Chaos


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#1    The Nameless One

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    Frank The Rabbit: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

Posted 25 November 2003 - 05:07 AM

Many of you probably have read my other threads about Chaos theory, So Ill try not to post too much on the subject, because I would have to either explain myself again, or do the copy paste method, and that would take to long.

So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points. Both teams could play forever and ever, until both scores looked like this. Team Ones score may be,
1000000022333400000000000000022000330000333335550000000000000.
And Team two's score may look like this. 244444444433099388111111188888888
888888880000000000000000000000000000000001019282827363
671818991093000000000000000000000000000000002299000.
Nobody can actually predict the outcome, because there is no outcome, by now some of you are thinking wow this sucks no it has no end. But yet is there an end?
By Chance (Randomness) certain events may unfold to cause an actual or possibly only postpone an outcome, under given conditions. These events could be Anything, the players may need a drink of water, disasters could happen, players may get bored of playing, but yet if they want under other given conditions they may begin to play again and start over thus Team two would win, or continue to play forever and ever again with the same scores they had, before Chance had occured. thumbsup.gif

One night I ventured to my wooden rocking chair right outside my back porch, and I looked to the sky in the break of twilight, staring into the dark mirror of space, filled with sands of star dust, colossal supernovas and red giants, strings of wormholes and distant planets beyond my grasp. A place where tiny enigmatic hidden black holes tear through the fabric of space and time which, who knows; may lead into other dimensions and perhaps alternate realities. And as I look up at this heavens mirror which my hands can only reach so far through this looking glass, I felt an odd sensation of something looking back staring into my own eyes, staring into a whole other universe of which I new nothing about until I saw my reflection within it, and in that moment I then knew that the key which open the portal doors to parallel worlds was myself.    "The Eyes of the Universe, Chris Landrum"

#2    snuffypuffer

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 06:07 AM

No, the team that was ahead after nine innings wins the game.  the rest is just nonsense.

Nothing to see here.

#3    The Nameless One

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    Frank The Rabbit: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

Posted 25 November 2003 - 07:16 AM

QUOTE (snuffypuffer @ Nov 25 2003, 05:07 AM)
No, the team that was ahead after nine innings wins the game.  the rest is just nonsense.

Why do you say this? Can you give valid, scientific explanations that prove what I say is incorrect. The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist.
Read the about the Lorenz Attractor, the Butterfly Effect, and the Koch Curve, then come back and tell me it's nonsense. Do your homework before you give your speech, for if not your teacher may give you an F. thumbsup.gif

You can also read my own original Idea which I call the Probabilty of Possiblity, thus the LAW OF PROBABLE FORCE. thumbsup.gif  

One night I ventured to my wooden rocking chair right outside my back porch, and I looked to the sky in the break of twilight, staring into the dark mirror of space, filled with sands of star dust, colossal supernovas and red giants, strings of wormholes and distant planets beyond my grasp. A place where tiny enigmatic hidden black holes tear through the fabric of space and time which, who knows; may lead into other dimensions and perhaps alternate realities. And as I look up at this heavens mirror which my hands can only reach so far through this looking glass, I felt an odd sensation of something looking back staring into my own eyes, staring into a whole other universe of which I new nothing about until I saw my reflection within it, and in that moment I then knew that the key which open the portal doors to parallel worlds was myself.    "The Eyes of the Universe, Chris Landrum"

#4    snuffypuffer

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE (The Nameless One @ Nov 25 2003, 06:16 AM)

Why do you say this? Can you give valid, scientific explanations that prove what I say is incorrect.

You used a bad analogy, baseball games only last nine innings, the team with the most runs after that time, wins.  If they went on and on after that, nobody would win, and there would be no point in playing at all.  You stated, and correct me if I'm wrong, that after nine innings, if one team has 7 runs, and one team has 10 runs, that no team actually won the game, because if they went on longer it's possible that the results would be different.  I'm saying the team ahead after nine wins.  that's the way baseball is played.  Sometimes the game goes on, but because at the end of nine innings, the score is tied, it goes on until someone wins.

I know all about the butterfly theory, that if a butterfly flaps its wings in one place, it causes a thunderstorm in another.  As far as I know, this does not apply to baseball.

Nothing to see here.

#5    gollum

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE
So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points.


Snuffs right, YOU say that at the end of the ninth inning team 2 has 10 points and team 1 has 7 points.
YOU then go on to say that IF they kept on playing. I really do'nt know what your point is, all you are saying is that if you start at zero and keep counting you will never end because you can always add 1 more digit to the last number. Sorry mate, but i worked that one out when i was seven or eight years old. No big mystery there! whistling2.gif  

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#6    snuffypuffer

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 06:15 PM

QUOTE (The Nameless One @ Nov 25 2003, 06:16 AM)
The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist.

You also need to learn about conjunctions, these are nifty little words that tie a sentence together, causing what you say to be understandable.  Just a friendly heads up, to make your posts a bit easier to read, really man, your grammar is giving me a headache.

Nothing to see here.

#7    The Nameless One

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    Frank The Rabbit: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

Posted 25 November 2003 - 10:09 PM

QUOTE (golam @ Nov 25 2003, 05:10 PM)
QUOTE
So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points.


Snuffs right, YOU say that at the end of the ninth inning team 2 has 10 points and team 1 has 7 points.
YOU then go on to say that IF they kept on playing. I really do'nt know what your point is, all you are saying is that if you start at zero and keep counting you will never end because you can always add 1 more digit to the last number. Sorry mate, but i worked that one out when i was seven or eight years old. No big mystery there! whistling2.gif

Why does everyone miss the point, does anyone in this forum understand me, and the point I was trying to make? Helpppppeellppeleph eme!!!!! Bashing head against monitor.  blink.gif

So what you are saying is that there is no end to the 8th inning or the 7th inning, but yet the game is played through nine innings, could go longer forever the game that never ends where the only random events unfold to postpone a game, or cause to end, until someone wants......w.wiwmlsmoipjwqsidij w/xms.dxsmx.x////.......
No more explaining.
Read about the butterfly effect, the koch curve, many others, try to solve Fermat................ Im bored out of my gored of explaining.






One night I ventured to my wooden rocking chair right outside my back porch, and I looked to the sky in the break of twilight, staring into the dark mirror of space, filled with sands of star dust, colossal supernovas and red giants, strings of wormholes and distant planets beyond my grasp. A place where tiny enigmatic hidden black holes tear through the fabric of space and time which, who knows; may lead into other dimensions and perhaps alternate realities. And as I look up at this heavens mirror which my hands can only reach so far through this looking glass, I felt an odd sensation of something looking back staring into my own eyes, staring into a whole other universe of which I new nothing about until I saw my reflection within it, and in that moment I then knew that the key which open the portal doors to parallel worlds was myself.    "The Eyes of the Universe, Chris Landrum"

#8    gollum

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 10:14 PM

go read your probability theory again. whistling2.gif  

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Dougal: Oho, Ted, the Italians know about football, all right. And fashion. God Ted, do you remember that man who was so good at fashion, they had to shoot him?


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#9    The Nameless One

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    Frank The Rabbit: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

Posted 25 November 2003 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (snuffypuffer @ Nov 25 2003, 05:15 PM)
QUOTE (The Nameless One @ Nov 25 2003, 06:16 AM)
The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist.

You also need to learn about conjunctions, these are nifty little words that tie a sentence together, causing what you say to be understandable.  Just a friendly heads up, to make your posts a bit easier to read, really man, your grammar is giving me a headache.

Oh did I break your concentration, well allow me to retort.
Debunk Science=Junk Science, don't blame me for your own mishaps, you should have listened in English, and Science Class. Your giving me an upset stomach, so now we are even.  dontgetit.gif Conjunction junction whats your function?

One night I ventured to my wooden rocking chair right outside my back porch, and I looked to the sky in the break of twilight, staring into the dark mirror of space, filled with sands of star dust, colossal supernovas and red giants, strings of wormholes and distant planets beyond my grasp. A place where tiny enigmatic hidden black holes tear through the fabric of space and time which, who knows; may lead into other dimensions and perhaps alternate realities. And as I look up at this heavens mirror which my hands can only reach so far through this looking glass, I felt an odd sensation of something looking back staring into my own eyes, staring into a whole other universe of which I new nothing about until I saw my reflection within it, and in that moment I then knew that the key which open the portal doors to parallel worlds was myself.    "The Eyes of the Universe, Chris Landrum"

#10    snuffypuffer

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:52 AM

I give up, you obviously have no idea what yourself or anyone else is talking about.  Do you want me to hold your hand and walk you through this?  

You stated, that given two baseball teams, playing 9 innings, team one scoring 7 points team two scoring 10 points, that neither team would actually win, because if they went on playing they would undeniably score more runs.  Am I getting this right?  And then you went into all this probability random conditions stuff, and that you can't actually predict the outcome of the game, because of all the independent variables going into it.  Am I on the wrong track?  I say after nine innings the point is moot, there is no reason to play more innings if one team is ahead after nine, and anything after that is pointless to discuss.  You keep arguing a point that doesn't exist, baseball games only last nine innings, your analogy was bad, end of discussion.  Or am I missing something here?  

Snuffy scores and the crowd goes wild..... I'd like to thank Jesus and my mamma.

Nothing to see here.

#11    TheLight

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 06:00 AM

Chaos is a well defined concept in mathematics, it's the basis of fractals (discovered by the famous mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot, btw I attended to one of his conferences). Anyway, the chaos in mathematics as defined initially in the fractals is when you cannot predict if a serie is going to converge or not (see Mandelbrot's set for a nice picture of it).

The butterfly effect is something different in nature: due to the number of parameters influencing the weather, it's impossible to predict the weather for long periods of time, and the image of a the air moved by butterfly wing was used to explain to the non-scientist that such a small event could indirectly start a storm later somewhere else (but that's a rather exagerate image). This is not chaos in the mathematical sense, it's simply an error of prediction due to an approximation in our modeling of weather. And you cannot really escape this approximation due to the impossibility to measure and modelise all the parameters for weather prediction.

I think there's not much for fantasy in the notion of chaos, it's pretty simple (and well defined) to me as long as it remains in the mathematical context.

TheLight


#12    gonzowalker

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 11:14 AM

Chaos theory = Sh#t happens. Sorry, but that's about as scientific as I can get.

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#13    Nax

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (The Nameless One @ Nov 25 2003, 04:07 AM)

Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points.

As Bud Abbott said to Lou Costello, "Who's on first base."

Watch that little skit on video if you get the chance to see it, you'll learn all you need to know about chaos.

laugh.gif

  


#14    Moonfairie

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 02:34 PM

Just 1 thing : I did'nt understand a single world ! I try realy hard to understand but no way. Perhap's I'm to stupid ! By the way, be nice with each other ! You don't have to be rude to express yourself (that one is for THe Namelessone and Snuffy Puffer), Calm down, breath and just said I don't agree with you because.... That's very easy.

L'imagination n'est pas le mensonge (Daniel Pennac, Messieurs les enfants).

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#15    mowo

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:03 PM

  disgust.gif didnt Mandelbrot say that equation and fractal are etymological opposites? chaos is exactly that- chaos, everything we dont understand. Its not "scientific" or "mathematical" as these words relate to mans understanding of things. Chaos has no rules, no formula so lets not complicate things by attempting to credit maths or science by including it. Thats my word.





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