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Good and Evil?


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#16    bathory

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Posted 11 December 2003 - 06:39 AM

QUOTE
Now for a more massive scale . The holocaust . Germany thought it was an excellent idea that would bring prosperity and eternal rule to them all , in the end everyone came to realize it was just some evil killing spree started by some seriously psychotic individual . Did the holocaust screw the mass over in end ? Yes .


actually, it was Hitler's military strategy of invading Russia poorly prepared that screwed them over, so really, the Holocaust could have been considered good (it is still considered good by some people), I disagree with that, but it doesn't make me any more right about what is good or evil.  

Do you think its good to execute women who get raped because they 'asked' for it? fundamentalist muslim law says so, in a community of fundamentalists it is deemed a good thing, who's to say it isn't?

QUOTE

GOOD

helpfull , brings joy to the mass in the end

EVIL

Not helpfull , screws the mass over in the end


is making up definitions in the rulebook? tongue.gif
i see your point, even then, define being screwed over? something negative occuring? negativity (in this context) is merely a perception which from person to person will change. Majority vs Minority has nothing to do with it. By your logic, Genocide in which the offending country gets away with is a good thing..



#17    Xenojjin

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 01:32 AM

you forget to take into account that I put " in the end " in my definitions . And they are not exact definitions , just what is ussually so . Its seems that their are some things that are pretty open to suggestion on whether or not they are evil . But I believe their are definately some things that will never be right no matter what some imbecile says . Murder will never be right , selfishness will never be right , hatred will never be right ect.


Calling good and evil nonexistant because they are subjective in some cases is nothing more then a way to prevent yourself from feeling bad about everything you have done in your life you do not feel was right . Its nothing but merely placing yourself in moral bliss so you can tell yourself you are perfect since their is no such thing as good and evil , right and wrong , perfection and imperfection . You know what ? logic and illogical , nah ! we dont need that either ! How about opinions ? Bah ! people's opinions meen nothing ! Or how about the ability to think as we know it ? Apperantly , it can't exist .

Everything is open to suggestion . it still exists . The people who think the holocaust was a good thing have serious psychological problems . get over it  

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#18    crosswarrior

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 03:57 AM

are we the one s who get to choose what is good and what is evil. I hope not. For I know that left to myself, the line between both will be always moving. But perhapes I am moving off topic.  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

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#19    bathory

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 10:29 AM

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Calling good and evil nonexistant because they are subjective in some cases is nothing more then a way to prevent yourself from feeling bad about everything you have done in your life you do not feel was right .


tsk tsk, you assume things about me which you cannot possibly know.
Why is Murder wrong?
Why is being selfish wrong?

I'm not saying that i agree with the above, but i'm open enough to understand that such concepts are ultimately flawed.


#20    Xenojjin

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 04:12 PM

Ah , I understand you now .

I just remembered you have no religion , and therefore no honor code that defines good and evil . Since existance is meaningless in your world good and evil in essence do not make sense to you .

When you are in this condition it is best to just simply treat others how you would like to be treated and nothing more . Beyond that , this simply becomes another god is or not debate with a gauranteed no end .

wacko.gif  

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#21    Seraphina

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE
I just remembered you have no religion , and therefore no honor code that defines good and evil . Since existance is meaningless in your world good and evil in essence do not make sense to you.


Makes you wonder if some people think us athiests are running around, without any concept of morals, randomly killing each other just for the sake of it...bit silly given how many wars have been started for the sake of religion huh.gif

*can't remember a single war fought, or person murdered, for the sake of athiesm tongue.gif *

You see? Our way is the way of peace my friends tongue.gif  

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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#22    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 01:09 AM

    I don't believe that a person is without honor merely because their religion is that there is no God. Every person has a knowledge deep in their heart of what is right and what is wrong. And it is from this inborn code that honor springs forth. The only problem is that manytimes this conscience is killed because it stands in our way.  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
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#23    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 01:20 AM

QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Dec 12 2003, 07:12 AM)
I just remembered you have no religion , and therefore no honor code that defines good and evil .


That is a pretty big assumption. Many people around the world do not follow an organized religion, but still are able to define good and evil just fine.

QUOTE
Since existence is meaningless in your world good and evil in essence do not make sense to you


I am not completely sure I follow your meaning on this but let me take a stab at it...

How can someone not understand good and evil? How can it not make sense? I don't understand exactly how or why you would say something like that. If a person has a frontal lobe and a room temperature IQ, the understanding of good/evil is pretty straightforward. People outside of organized religion have been able to make sense of the concept of good and evil for millennia. Being a christian/muslim/jew/buddhist/etc. does not give one the corner market on understanding good or evil. Those definitions are made at a societal level, and very often change over time anyway.

As Seraphina just said, christianity/islam/judaism which have the strictest guidelines of good and evil are also responsible for untold millions of deaths over the millennia. It is one of the reasons in my mind that organized religion has such a problem with credibility; the hypocrisy is tough to look past.

QUOTE
are we the one s who get to choose what is good and what is evil. I hope not. For I know that left to myself, the line between both will be always moving. But perhaps I am moving off topic.


Of course we are the ones that choose what is good and what is evil. It has been that way since the beginning of mankind, and still goes that way today. We do things today in our society that would have had us burned at the stake in the middle ages. The society we live in decides what is considered good or evil and as I said before, that changes over time...


Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#24    Seraphina

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 02:21 AM

Ah,  FluffyBunny...you truly are a man of great wisdom cool.gif Couldn't have said it better myself...

It does seem to be a rather...strange misconception that athiests somehow have no morale code huh.gif I do actually find myself wondering where the belief comes from...

Does the church spend much of its time and energy lecturing on the evils of athiesm, and that we are all hellish sinners who will and should burn in hell for eternity for our lawless ways?

Or is it just pig ignorance, and a flat refusal to actually look at historical fact? huh.gif  

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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#25    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 02:59 AM

Explain how someone with no belief in good and evil can have a moral code that truly defines it . You can have a moral code but it changes over time and is subjective , so it doesn't truly define it . I am in no way saying you are all sinners who should burn in hell .

QUOTE
*can't remember a single war fought, or person murdered, for the sake of athiesm  *


of course not , why argue over athieism ? But then again , wars have been fought many times before without religous influence . Since athieism is no religion you could say it has had its parts .


Blaming religions for wars can sometimes be based on ignorance . Although certain things have been started over religion like the crusades , no where in the christian text does it say anything about us doing that . The bible actually says the opposite of the crusades and tells us to ignore those who refuse to listen rather then kill them .

In other words , its not neccesarily religion that is responsible for the war ... but stupid people who start the war in the first place . Kind of like every other war .

QUOTE
Does the church spend much of its time and energy lecturing on the evils of athiesm, and that we are all hellish sinners who will and should burn in hell for eternity for our lawless ways?


No .

QUOTE
christianity/islam/judaism which have the strictest guidelines of good and evil are also responsible for untold millions of deaths over the millennia.


none of which were acts that their religion actually supported , just some idiot making up  their own twisted ideas and calling it that religion . well ... except for islam , sorry if their are muslims out their but I provide no back up for them .

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#26    moe eubleck

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 03:05 AM

well said Xeno! thumbsup.gif  I am reminded of something I read stating : " I love Jesus. I just hate his fan club. "



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#27    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 03:26 AM

QUOTE
Does the church spend much of its time and energy lecturing on the evils of athiesm, and that we are all hellish sinners who will and should burn in hell for eternity for our lawless ways?



Depending on the church, yes they do. I know a lot of churchgoing folk would tend to focus on the positive site of modern christianity(the perfect love[agape] of god...), and that is really a wonderful thing...

My concern is with the final trump card that is played when a "conversion' isn't going smoothly. "You will burn in hell for eternity..." has been quite a selling point for christianity for a millennia.

As much as I would like for gods perfect love and all of the positive things that one hears about in a sunday sermon to be the reason that people show up on sunday morning, I think it isn't really the case for a majority of the people there.

I can't say what the original intentions of the early church was, no one can. 2000 years is a long time for motives to get distorted, and I think that they have.

In my opinion, the christian church has been about power from its early history, and the best way to be a powerful religion is to have alot of people behind you.

The "marketing plan" of the christian church is pretty tough to turn down if you think about it...The gist being that if you are aware of jesus(you don't even really need to believe, just be aware), and choose not to be reborn, you don't get inked in the "book of life"...so sorry, we have patio seating for you in hell, no waiting; have a nice eternity...

The new testament is pretty clear in that jesus is the only way into heaven. Talk about a monopoly! Pretty convenient for the church. If you do what our book says, and what we interpret from the book, you can live eternity in paradise, if not, well get the sunblock out; it's going to get toasty. Hmmm...let me give that some thought.  rolleyes.gif

Of course the above criteria puts Mother Theresa in a tough spot being catholic and all...such are the difficulties of being the one true religion.

The "marketing plan" also relies on your followers converting their friends and family; proselytizing at every given chance. Does Amway ring a bell? You can even see it on this board from a few of the members here. Do they have the right to do so? of course they do, our countries forefathers made sure that they did... I wouldn't have it any other way, and would die to defend their right to do so.




Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#28    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:17 AM

I might be wrong But I don't see how Catholics would be any less Christian than Protostants. I never have understood that about us Christians; we say we all serve the same God, but every Denomination shouts out that they are the only true Christian Church. It's weird  blink.gif
    But regardless of which religion is the right one there has to be a moral absolute. There has to be a final word on what is acceptable and what is not. Or else what hope is there for humanity?

  By the way Xenojjin where did you find the Alucard icon? I couldn't find a decent
one.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#29    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:23 AM

QUOTE (crosswarrior @ Dec 12 2003, 09:17 PM)
There has to be a final word on what is acceptable and what is not. Or else what hope is there for humanity?

There is a final word...us. We make our decisions on a daily basis. We use religion, common sense, and any guidelines that work in order to come up with a community "morality". Religion is definately a part of that process for many communities, but there are other factors to help decide what is right and what is wrong...

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#30    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:26 AM

What do you believe these other factors are?
And if anyone else knows of any good Hellsing (or any good anime) icons. please let me know.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.




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