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Good and Evil?


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#31    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:34 AM

QUOTE
I love Jesus. I just hate his fan club.


its so true moe , I almost didn't become a christian based on the stupidity  some of his followers . It really shows on this site as I have had to explain that it wasn't the religions fault but the idiots in the religion that caused whatever about 5 times on this forum so far , I probobly will continue to have to do this many times .

As for you fluff , have you actually read the christian bible ? Could it be that its simply sharing a good thing and not a marketing plan ? Is their anything wrong with simply believing in Jesus and going to heaven ? Its not that big of a requirement and I find it slightly odd you are complaining about it . You act as if its some big sceme and assume its all false before you even truly look into it .

On top of that you should really look into the differant sects of christianity as they are much more differant then you think . I can tell by reading your post you are pretty smart , but still making the same mistake all anti - christians make and that is

1 . accusing us of preaching hellfire on a regular basis . We actually almost never do this

2 . confusing sects ( mix christian ideas with catholic ones and constantly switch between the two , sometimes people even get them mixed up completely ) or even worse ... the saddest display of ignorance in what your talking about "errrr ....uhhhh ..... whats the differance between christianity and *INSERT WHATEVER* ? I dont think there is a differance . "

3 . hasn't actually read the bible , and thats all of it . Its not that long and shouldn't take you longer then a month to read . accusing a religion of being BS without having even read its text is pretty rude .

4.Claiming things are in the bible that are not actually their .

I'd say you seem to have gotten  3/4 down quite well  

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#32    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:43 AM

   I think that Christianity would probably be alot more accepted if it's followers actually followed the teachings of Jesus. Because the fact is that it does't take a rocket scientist to figure out the the Church is about 80% hypocrite. It's really quite stupid
  

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#33    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:00 AM

Oh boy...

QUOTE
Explain how someone with no belief in good and evil can have a moral code that truly defines it . You can have a moral code but it changes over time and is subjective , so it doesn't truly define it


I never said I didn't have a belief in good and evil...of course there is a "good" and an "evil". (Is it an evil petting zoo?)

My point is that one doesn't need to belong to a given church to be able to define of decide on what is good or evil. The definition of good and evil is made up by people in a given set of circumstances...

Morality is defined as "Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character".

Although the church seems to have a corner market on judgement, it is not the only factor involved, and it need not be. The community makes that decision more often than not.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the moral code of the church(any church) changes over time too. The church isn't an self contained entity that sets up the rules. The church is made up of a large community of people that influence how doctrine will be interpreted and applied. Therein lies the rub.

Look at how the church has changed over the past millenia. The church has changed its opinions on many many things over the years. What is acceptable now would have gotten you burned at the stake 300 years ago. The fact that Xenojjin talks about "psi" this or that would have had him BBQ'd as a heratic not so long ago. Change can be for the good.

I am not saying that is a bad thing, I would hate to get stuck with a torquemada running the church. The church is far batter off than it was long ago. I just get fedup with the attitude of many mainstream christians to become instantly superior because of their beliefs.

Do buddhists knock at your door and try to convert("save") you?

Do taoists go into every undeveloped, underpriveledged nation in the world and try to convert entire nations to change their pagan ways?

When was the last time you saw a "Zues Saves" bumper sticker?

QUOTE
In other words , its not neccesarily religion that is responsible for the war ... but stupid people who start the war in the first place . Kind of like every other war .


Great point, well taken.

It doesn't change the fact that a lot of people were tortured and murdered in order to gain a conversion in the Inquisition. It doesn't mean that people aren't flying airplanes into building with the promise that a bundle of virgins await them when they are done. Those simple interpretations of religion that are now considered "evil" weren't in their day.

What common practice are we doing now that will be considered evil in 100 years?

QUOTE

none of which were acts that their religion actually supported , just some idiot making up  their own twisted ideas and calling it that religion . well ... except for islam , sorry if their are muslims out their but I provide no back up for them .


The bottom line is that religion is open to interpretation. Those doctrines that supported wars, or torture, or murder were gleaned from the pages of the same bible we are reading today. It is vague and open to interpretation in many places. The masses of people accept the doctrine with little or no thought on their own, they assume that the person at the pulpit is telling the "truth". They may be, but what about the books that never made it to the bible? That is an entirely different discussion....

I just want people to think for themselves.

I don't want to talk anyone out of their spiritual beliefs, I have mine and defend them vigorusly, I would expect the same from anyone else.



Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#34    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:06 AM

QUOTE (fluffybunny @ Dec 13 2003, 06:00 AM)
I just want people to think for themselves.

I don't want to talk anyone out of their spiritual beliefs, I have mine and defend them vigorusly, I would expect the same from anyone else.

   AMEN to that. May we all use the brain that God has given us and not blindly follow.

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#35    bathory

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:44 AM

why in the heck has this turned into a Religion debate...sigh...

Xen, just because i don't follow a set religion does not mean i don't have any form of personal moral code, its just that I unlike you have an understanding that mine is not necessarily right.

QUOTE
Explain how someone with no belief in good and evil can have a moral code that truly defines it . You can have a moral code but it changes over time and is subjective , so it doesn't truly define it .


Guess what, all morals are subjective, you don't seem to understand this, just because a book sets down the rules doesn't instantly mean that you are right. You say one can have a moral code, BUT it changes over time whilst being subjective, have you even looked at your religion? The morals thrown around in that book have changed constantly, are you sure you've read the bible? Notice how the old testament is distinctly more violent in terms of moral code compared to the flowers and hugs of the new testament, doesn't this demonstrate a change in moral code supporting my claims that Morality is purely subjective.

QUOTE
of course not , why argue over athieism ? But then again , wars have been fought many times before without religous influence . Since athieism is no religion you could say it has had its parts .


Atheism is the disbelief in a god/s, just because Religion didn't play a part in a war does not mean that Athiesm did, that would be like saying

Religion didn't play a part in me giving to a charity, therefore Atheism in some way did...

Good and Evil are subjective terms with concepts of both never being the 'correct' concept, deal with it


#36    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE (crosswarrior @ Dec 12 2003, 10:06 PM)
May we all use the brain that God has given us and not blindly follow.

My brain was given to me by Haashch’eelti’i... tongue.gif  

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#37    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:35 AM

QUOTE (fluffybunny @ Dec 13 2003, 06:25 AM)
QUOTE (crosswarrior @ Dec 12 2003, 10:06 PM)
May we all use the brain that God has given us and not blindly follow.

My brain was given to me by Haashch’eelti’i... tongue.gif

  UHHHH..... Sure.  huh.gif  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#38    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:18 AM

Navajo god. From the navajo Creation Story. A good read.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#39    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:48 AM

Too... many ... straw man ... arguments... dont know where to...start.. wacko.gif



Fluff -

did I say religion or church ? I actually rarely go to church *shock!* because I know it changes over time . The religion itself does not and thats what I refer to .

bathory -

Did I say "If you dont have the same religion as me " or " no religion whatsoever." ?  I was simply showing the imposibiblity of an honor code that can truely support good and evil in an immortal sense that does not change when you believe in nothing . I was in no way being one of those arse holios trying to say you can't have an opinion since you dont believe in my god . Just believe in anything and its ok by me *says "whatever" out loud*

QUOTE
It doesn't change the fact that a lot of people were tortured and murdered in order to gain a conversion in the Inquisition. It doesn't mean that people aren't flying airplanes into building with the promise that a bundle of virgins await them when they are done. Those simple interpretations of religion that are now considered "evil" weren't in their day.


that doesn't change the fact that religion was not the true cause and it was simply stupid people being stupid . And I sense some violation of AC mistake 3 and 4 here , you seem to make smart points ... but for the most part you are only restating basic stereotypes on religion .

QUOTE
Guess what, all morals are subjective, you don't seem to understand this, just because a book sets down the rules doesn't instantly mean that you are right. You say one can have a moral code, BUT it changes over time whilst being subjective, have you even looked at your religion? The morals thrown around in that book have changed constantly, are you sure you've read the bible? Notice how the old testament is distinctly more violent in terms of moral code compared to the flowers and hugs of the new testament, doesn't this demonstrate a change in moral code supporting my claims that Morality is purely subjective.


congrats man . too bad this reasoning of yours has already been dealt with and pretty much explained in an earlier thread . Rather then repeating myself as the explanation is long you can look through all the other God is God isn't threads and find it on your own .

And yes , last time i checked I had gotten over reading the bible for the 8th time a few months ago . It is quite possible to read the whole thing ... rolleyes.gif


Speaking of which , this is turning into another god is god isn't debate ... oy ... we might just end up agreeing to disagree like all threads like this end in .

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#40    Seraphina

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE
The religion itself does not and thats what I refer to


As has been pointed out to you some...8 or 9 times now tongue.gif ...yes it does. The beliefs and doctrines of your religion are about as stable as the average third world diet plan. It has constantly been evolving and changing to 'fit in' with new ideas and times so it can actually remain in place, instead of going the same way as most other religions that have come before it.

It really does boggle the mind that people could look at the wealth of contradictions between religion as it stands now, and what it used to preach, and not think "hang on...they're making it up as they go along huh.gif"

QUOTE
I was simply showing the imposibiblity of an honor code that can truely support good and evil in an immortal sense that does not change when you believe in nothing


Again, the 'immortal' code of good and evil followed by Christians fluctuates with room temperature. As you keep dancing around, what the bible told you was evil years ago is now fine and dandy tongue.gif

You think if you'd been alive during the dark ages you could freely admit "I actually rarely go to church" without the witch smeller coming and knocking on your door, shortly before ritual torture and execution? wink2.gif You know, that thing you keep saying would happen to a person in...well...hell, ironically.

The image projected by christianity changes and shifts with the opinion of the public. Claiming "God became a happy, loving dude, because Jesus died for our sins" is a rather absurd arguement for explaining the fickleness of a being who is supposedly eternal, and for whom you repeatedly claim "time does not exist"...if time does not exist for him, wouldn't the time before and after Jesus's death before one and the same? How could he change his mind if there's no division to speak of? tongue.gif

QUOTE
but for the most part you are only restating basic stereotypes on religion.


Those steriotypes exist for a reason: that being that people following the same source of moral code as you do, thought that code gave them justification to do what they did. The bible seems a very dangerous thing to use to determine right and wrong.

QUOTE
we might just end up agreeing to disagree like all threads like this end in


Probably will tongue.gif The arguement always goes the same way anyway...you argue fiction, we argue logic, you disregard logic in favour of blind assumptions, and so on and so forth wink2.gif

Oh, and on a final note...catholics are christians tongue.gif Just because you seem to think they're not because of the typical (and petty) "their spiritual beliefs aren't the same as mine! They're wrong!" thing, does not make you correct wink2.gif The bible is so vastly open to interpretation, with so many dozens of mistranslations, that let's be honest, no one group could possibly be the correct one (correct in that their beliefs are the closest to those actually preached by the bible).


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#41    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 04:11 PM

Catholics are not christians . they are protestant but very differant . If you are not going to look into it and blindly call them the same I suggest you should start preparing to be ignored . Its an ignorant claim .

And the people following the religion is what changed it . Did the text itself change ? No .  Although the bible is open to interpretation their is actually only one way to interpret it for the bible to work ( proven by scientists who have studied the bible all their lives ) . So in other words , you can interpret it differantly but you can be wrong as well .

You dont seem to understand that I KNOW the public christian opinion of god changes over time , I am stating the actual book itself is quite the same in its overall meaning and points on morality through time . the interpretation changes but not the true interpretation .

And just because you don't agree with me means you get call my reasoning fubar and yours logic . Its really immature and along the same lines of a 6 year old shouting " IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG ! HMPH ! *pouts in corner* "

Anyway ... we have gone wayyyy off topic and I am hoping to return to it so ..

The point I make against atheists and good n evil is that if they were right about their being no god , their really would be no such thing as a true a definate good and evil . It would be a mere suggestion based on culture .

If whatever religion you have is the right one then it doesn't matter if you interpret it wrong their is definatly something god wants you to be doing and therefore their would be a true and definate good and evil whether you know what that is or not .

So it entirely depends on whether or not you believe in god . which is why this thread has endless potential .  

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#42    Seraphina

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE
And just because you don't agree with me means you get call my reasoning fubar and yours logic . Its really immature and along the same lines of a 6 year old shouting " IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG ! HMPH ! *pouts in corner* "


Well...sorry to burst your bubble dude, but my belief's are logic, and whether you like it or not, your are based solely on speculation and interpretation of an extremely cryptic peice of mythology.

logical: of or according to logic; corrently reasoned; defensible or explicable on the ground of consistency

Basically, the opinions of myself and my fellow athiests here present is formed by looked at the facts surrounding religion, and the inconsistancies of it, and what we have also established to be fact about the world around us.

You and those who follow your dotrines, however, place all your faith in...well...faith, without anything remotely resembling evidence, merely acceping that some kind of divine being is there because you 'believe it', despite the afformentioned logic pointing quite firmly in the opposite direction, and that much of what is said in the bible is swill.

Since you're not basing any of your supersticions on fact, it therefore can't be logical. If "fubar" is a word you especially like, then sure, we can adopt that grin2.gif  

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#43    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 06:49 PM

Sounds like someone has a case of religious intolerance .


God is by definition supernatural . You can call it superstition if you want but you don't know everything about religion and you dont seem to know everything about atheism either . Einstein himself came to understand the impossibility of our existance without a god . In esscence , you cannot call god a mere superstition because you cant prove he does not exist .

As for faith , sorry to break it to you seraph but evolution actually requires a lot more faith then a belief in god . The chance of the system evolving to such a level of complexity and ecosystems along with mutualistic relationships that it has based on a mere spark of life is extremely thin , chances are much greater that the life would be extinguished before it even got to mulicellular organisms . To say evolution is even possible you need quite a lot of faith as we have only witnesed some of the very simple forms of evolution ( the bible supports evolution to the stages we have witnessed ) but we have yet to see full scale evolution to an entirely knew species . AKA a lizard actually evolving into a rat . Sure , it takes millions of years and we can only assume based on fossil samples ( and with the whole tyranasauras rex leg messup thing we all know how accurate those can be ) sounds like faith .

And if that doesn't get you , consider the "missing link" scientists can only believe it out there . Thats called faith , evolution is no more immune to "superstition" as you call it , then creation .

And if believe in nothing and don't know where we came from , your superstition rant is pretty hypocritical since you have absolutely no idea what is going on .

Overall , there is quite some logic involved in creation ideas and just the tip of it can be seen ....

Right here ( link )

and here ( link )

here as well ( link )

some more right here ( link )

OY ! more here ( link )

Ah , here too ( link )

Here !  Here ! ( link )

because this is my post and I can ! ( link )

A nice very non biased site here ( link )


The fact is seraph , things like this are argued over day after day . You accusation of creation desighn being superstitous actually happens to be one of the LOW LEVEL attempts evolutionists have tried and it has already been dealt with . I can tell by your lack of knowledge in this you don't really know what your talking about but instead merely shootinf off ideas that have already been shot down easily by some of the best philosophers of our time .

Their is logic embedded in creation , you are a little kid whining "IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG ! HMPH ! *pouts in corner and refuses to accept anything*" , get over it  thumbsup.gif  

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#44    Seraphina

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:54 PM

And you, obviously, are a slave to the doctrines that have been hammered into you by the bible tongue.gif

Let us humour your links for a moment...

The first one for example, works upon the assumption that you often use...god is beyond time, space, etc etc...however, as I say, this is an assumption. To be honest, I find it difficult to understand how a supposedly learned graduate from a university could possibly make claims like I see on that sight without a single shred of evidence presented huh.gif

Basically, that site says "athiests, and their scientific arguements are wrong, because the bible say this and that"...which is hardly a moving arguement.

QUOTE
Atheists try to get around the problem that time began at the Big Bang by appealing to a breakdown of the laws of physics before 10-43 seconds after the initiation of the Big Bang. However, we will never have any scientific evidence that these "different laws" ever actually existed.


Well...he's right there, we'll never have any scientific evidence for that. However, learned minds have presented an alternate theory, which the owner of this site simply disregards, again, because "Biblical arguments for God's existence appeal to a God who exists beyond time and space. Any other kind of god is logically impossible."

One that exists outwith time and space is logically impossible too, bud tongue.gif

Hmm...this is fun...what's the next one...

Your second link is much the same; it assumes the bible is true for its central arguement, yet presents absolutely no evidence to support that statement. You'd think, given each arguement it presents goes along the lines of "now, if we refer back to the bible..." they'd try and validate the bible itself first.

bla bla...most of the others fall into about the same catagory...

Hmm...number 4 (god, you've got a lot of free time...) is pretty interesting...but one of its arguements hinges on the idea that life has not appeared on other planets, but there is currently very strong evidence to suggest that, at one point, single celled life existed on mars (some even claim it's possible that the life on our planet was imported on an astral body such as an asteriod). That was the most credible so far though...had some nice arguements, you're getting warmer tongue.gif

Don't you have any sources that aren't from a biased source that's already formed an opinion because "the bible say so" rolleyes.gif

"I believe that there needed to be a causal agent outside of the realm of the Universe to start the "Big Bang" and believe that God was that First Cause."

Key words there "I believe"...as soon as that's stated, evidence becomes kind of meaningless, as it's all he's really looking for tongue.gif

Second last link...cute...make that yourself did you? tongue.gif

The last one just looks like a lot of references...if anything, all it proves is that for every arguement in one direction, there's another in the opposite direction against it tongue.gif

However...as much as your ability to post links is...exhasperatingly inpressive, it doesn't change one minor flaw in it...

There's no EVIDENCE of the existance of god. And suggesting flaws in the theories of the opposite camp isn't proof of his existance either tongue.gif Theorising that a being exists beyond space and time as a counter for investigated fact still doesn't hold any real water...especially if the fact that god exists in such a manner, and is therefore 'much more powerful than the god most athiests argue against' is hardly a strong opposing arguement. You can't respond against logic with claims that are nothing but assumptions.

If the absolute best you can do is throw websites at me, and then start accusing me of...what was it? Being a whining little kid I believe? Then, to be perfectly honest, I see you simply don't have the maturity to respond to logic in an intelligent manner rolleyes.gif

However...the very fact that you could somehow claim an athiest's sense of morals are somehow inferior to your own has already entrenched you into that little niche of superiority complexes and pig ignorance. Especially when it is you, the great, wise, balanced and all loving christian who begins to stoop to accusing the opposing side in the arguement of being children...whining...ignorant...or any of those other insults you perhaps hear blasted from the pulpit as we are condemed by your loving god to a fiery hell rolleyes.gif

On a side note...

QUOTE
you cannot call god a mere superstition because you cant prove he does not exist


I can't prove smashing a mirror doesn't bring seven years bad luck either, or that a black cat crossing your path is unlucky...does that mean they're not superstitions too? tongue.gif

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#45    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Dec 13 2003, 03:11 PM)
Catholics are not christians . they are protestant but very differant . If you are not going to look into it and blindly call them the same I suggest you should start preparing to be ignored . Its an ignorant claim .

   Ahh good to be back. Did I really sleep tp 1:40 p.m.? oh well.
   But getting down to bussiness. Xeno I've been agreeing with about 70% of what you have been saying; but i'm standing with Seraphina on this one. Catholics are Potestant but diffrerant?!!!! Where did you get that one!!! The last I checked the Catholic Church as teaching the way of Christianity way before Luther came around. If you are going to believe that they are not Christians then it is just as easy to say that Protestants are Heritics and that the Catholics are right. And just so you don't get the idea that i am some monk sitting in a monestary i'll give you some backround
   I attended thee Catholic church for about 10 years. Then my family left to go to a Nazerine denomination. That Church crumbled and we searched for about 2 years and settled at a small Baptist Church. We stayed at that Church for about two years until my dad broke his back on the job, and my mother almost died from a miscarriage; the Church shunned us because we were "obviously being punished, so we left that Church and have not had a home Church for about 3 years. I have studied many differant denominations to the point that my personal beliefs are about 60% Catholic and 40% Protestant.    

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.




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