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Good and Evil?


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#46    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE
As for faith , sorry to break it to you seraph but evolution actually requires a lot more faith then a belief in god .


No it doesn't...science has a wonderful way in testing ideas in order to see how they pan out. The evolutionary scale is by no means complete. The theory is fluid, and adapts to new findings. It is a work in progress.

I think that one thing we are missing is that science doesn't attempt to claim there is no god. Some scientists will do their best to do so, but that isn't the purpose of science in general. I think that science is an attempt to understand ourselves and our world better. Simply by learning how the process may or may not have occured doesn't mean that there wasn't a motivating force behind it...I myself do not know, but don't rule out anything...

I for one do not think that the evolutionary theory is mutually exclusive of any gods handywork...It is an explanation of how we have arrived here. Is it the process that god used? Who knows. Did the process happen over 6 days? no, I doubt that, but if the timeline of creation were spread out of hundreds of millions of years, it becomes much more plausible. Just my theory. Xenijjin, if you think that the earth is only 9000 years old, then there won't be much of a discussion as you would be too far gone to be able to reason with...

One of the issues that keep going back and forth in the good/evil discussion is that you keep disavowing any relation to a church and the bad things that have happened that have been inpired by organized religion over the millennia, but yet keep claiming "the religion" for yourself:

QUOTE
did I say religion or church ? I actually rarely go to church *shock!* because I know it changes over time . The religion itself does not and thats what I refer to .


Can you explain to me how it is that your "religion" doesn't change over time? I am very interested in hearing how you have managed to keep your religion the same over the centuries...That sounds wonderful, but I don't understand how you come to that claim.

Do you refer to a bible? Is it your own religion run by your rules? Is it the Church of Xenojjin?

Really, I would love to know how it is that you alone have been able to keep your religion from changing. It sounds fascinating...

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#47    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:15 PM

   Change the amount I agree with Xeno on this round, down to about 50% disgust.gif  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
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#48    Fluffybunny

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE
You dont seem to understand that I KNOW the public christian opinion of god changes over time , I am stating the actual book itself is quite the same in its overall meaning and points on morality through time . the interpretation changes but not the true interpretation .


You know the true interpretation? Really? Wow that is amazing! To think that over all of these centuries people have fought so hard to understand the teachings of the bible, and they only needed to ask you...

I would oove if you could help me to understand a passage in the bible since you seem to have access the true interpretation:

QUOTE
LEVITICUS 20:13 NKJ
13 `If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.


I was hoping you could shed some light on the above passage. It is from the bible, and to me I read it to say that homosexuals shall be put to death...Seems pretty harsh, but I am sure you have the answers.

Since we are at it, how about a little more help:

QUOTE
1 Corinthians 14: 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36


Does this mean that women are not allowed to speak in church? It sounds that way to me, but you seem to know the truth...

Thanks for your help in this difficult subject...




Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#49    Seraphina

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:50 PM

You know Fluffy, the more I read, the more I like ya cool.gif  

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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#50    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:53 PM

QUOTE (fluffybunny @ Dec 13 2003, 07:35 PM)
QUOTE
LEVITICUS 20:13 NKJ
13 `If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.



QUOTE
1 Corinthians 14: 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36


Does this mean that women are not allowed to speak in church? It sounds that way to me, but you seem to know the truth...

Thanks for your help in this difficult subject...

AS for the first quote i think it kinda means their supposed to be uhh dead. But then you are also supposed to die for murder, and David got out of that one.

  As for the woman speaking. I looked in a Greek lexicon and from what I can gather it seems that there just not supposed to Preach huh.gif  This still seems like it puts woman in a lower caste; but the Bible also repeteably states that men are to treat woman better than themselves. So maybe there can be a balancing factor there.  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#51    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:58 PM

    AAAAHHH... It is good to be at a place where people think. Even if they oppose each other. I work at a Christian ministry, but I tire quickly of listening to their dogmatics. I only wish I had found this Forum more quickly.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#52    moe eubleck

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE
fluffybunny
LEVITICUS 20:13 NKJ
13 `If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.  I was hoping you could shed some light on the above passage. It is from the bible, and to me I read it to say that homosexuals shall be put to death...Seems pretty harsh, but I am sure you have the answers.
snce we are at it, how about a little more help
QUOTE 
1 Corinthians 14: 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 
Does this mean that women are not allowed to speak in church? It sounds that way to me, but you seem to know the truth...
Thanks for your help in this difficult subject...


:an earlier quote by fluffybun
QUOTE
hate to be the one to break it to you, but the moral code of the church(any church) changes over time too.


   hmmmm... looks like you answered you own question in an earlier post , Fluff.
thumbsup.gif  Shame on you !

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#53    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 10:54 PM

This has officially become another god is god isnt debate with no end . I could come up with some answers for your questions , but then it will lead to more questions .

And their is no church of Xenojjin rolleyes.gif  , I am stating the beliefs of foursquare mainstream christianity ( also just known as "christianity" without the catholic influence or other sects ) If you do not believe the christian religion teaches the same thing I do , then you dont know what they teach .

As for christianity and catholicism , you need to read into them both . They are truly differant and if you actually took time to research it yourself you would know what I mean .

some examples

Catholics pray to the virgin mary as if she was another god . Christians do not . This differance of diety alone is more then enough to nullify any claims the two are the same

Catholics have an extended set of rules that were added on by England . These rules do not apply to christians in any way ( For instance , flogging yourself when you do something wrong is not christian )

Catholicism allows killing people / threatenin them with death as means of conversion , christianity does not

Catholics preach that disobeying your goverment will immediatly send you into the pits of hell . Christians do not .

Sex is holy in christianity , but not in catholicism .

Catholics have a much stricter line of punishments .

Another big one ---> Catholics believe that you must confess all of your sins or else you will be purged into hell . They have this odd rating system that defines what you have done that you have not confessed . If you have done "little" sins all of your life you are then sent to "Limbo" to do some sort of spiritual community service for god . Christianity simply asks you believe jesus die for your sins and you automatically are placed on the list for heaven , no limbo . And in christianity , sin is sin . No rating system .

Christians believe in hell . Catholics believe in 9 layers of hell as defined by dante's inferno .

Catholics teach that christians are sent to some weird little island when they die
... whatever...

But beyond that they are about 60 % the same . but still differant .

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#54    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 11:05 PM

    Much of what Catholics believe is tradition, not any thing taught by the Bible. Maybe much of it is not true. But does it affect their salvation? I don't think so.  

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#55    Xenojjin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 11:22 PM

If you were to go by the christian faith , christians say catholics still go to heaven since they fullfill the one requirement of believing in jesus . As I said , 60% of the stuff is the same .

on a lighter note , I recently heard something like this .

QUOTE
Christian = Protestan = Catholic


the stupidity of this is unheard of , why ? Seems logical , but then again if we apllied this logic to other things it is shown quite clearly that it isn't .

is the statement Ants = insect = wasp true ? No . Protestant is used to group all religions that are like christianity since thanks to England we ended up with all these random sects from nowhere . Insect is used to group all religions that show bug like traits since there are so many of them .

Are ants wasps ? NO , but they are similar .

Are christians catholics ? No , but they are similar

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#56    crosswarrior

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 11:28 PM

    I thought Christianity was the teaching of Jesus Christ. What is your Christianity?
The Bible says whosoever believes on Jesus Christ shall be saved. That is it's way of salvation. Much of the other stuff does not matter

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
(Justice, though heaven fall)

Enter freely. Go safely and leave something of the happiness you bring.

#57    Fluffybunny

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE (moe eubleck @ Dec 13 2003, 12:44 PM)
hmmmm... looks like you answered you own question in an earlier post , Fluff.
thumbsup.gif  Shame on you !

I was actually aiming to be a bit more sarcastic than it came out, I was trying to see how Xenojjin could explain it away...I am already aware of the answer I was looking for, I just wanted to see how others may answer it, as it is a good lithmus test as to how the discussion could move forward...

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#58    Xenojjin

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:03 AM

Christianity is the teaching of jesus christ and catholisim also does the same thing , but the other little stuff does matter in the fact that they are differant . Athiests often argue that the persecution of those for not being protestant over time is proof against god being good . In catholicism you may kill people to convert them while in christianity you can not .

Their would be no differance in my salvation if  was catholic , but I am christian anyways out of self respect .  

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#59    Fluffybunny

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE
but I am christian anyways out of self respect .


How do you mean? I don't follow...


Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#60    moe eubleck

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 12:37 AM

oi !  wacko.gif   *smacks self on forehead*

Moe hereby declares this thread "yet another for or against Christianity thread."  Why does every topic in skeptics corner end up as the same type of organized despair involving the same culprits?
  Moe belives this phenomenon belongs at Unexplained Mysteries .com because it is very much an unexplained mystery.
  Is it caused by the Aliens? El-Chupacabra? I have it- the MIBs!!
Yes! Moe is on to you all. Trying to distract us from discussing govt. conspiracies by using the debater's favorite topic . " Religion VS. Science. "
But we are on to you MIBs!! Oh yes!!  Let the veil be taken off of our eyes!!  blink.gif  wacko.gif

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