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Proof that dinosaurs lived alongside humans ?


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#61    JeremyGTS

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:22 PM

so sharing 98% DNA with chimps does not show that humans may have came from apes?  or is that a prank by "god" or something? get real people i know if this is true this mean you are not special as you may think you are, you are nothing more than an APE!!


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#62    Jim88

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:36 PM

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I gotta agree here, and also I must mention that you've hit on the real problem that Creationists think they have with evolution.  See, contrary to what Creationists generally believe, Evolution has absolutely nothing to say about the origin of life on Earth.  That area is known as Abiogenesis.  Evolution presupposes life.  IOW, life evolves into different life.  Not "Dirt evolves into living tissue, which then evolves into different life."
Check the links given at this page.
These prints have been investigated to the fullest extent possible.  They are not human footprints.  Many claimed "tracks" are in the possession of private citizens who don't want them investigated, for personal reasons (like their faith in God, for example.)

That site is linked at a fantastic website called Doug's Archaeology Site. I've linked Doug's site here before.  I encourage everyone reading this to go there and poke around.  You might also want to try the Antiquity of Man Pseudoscience page.  A jillion links there.

Harte


Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

The thing with Abiogensis is it has to be true for life to have had a beginning, whether you believe life was created or it evolved. Either way life has to be able to come from the nonliving.

Only nobody has ever observed Abiogensis, so does this mean life always existed?


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#63    IamsSon

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:43 PM

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so sharing 98% DNA with chimps does not show that humans may have came from apes?  or is that a prank by "god" or something? get real people i know if this is true this mean you are not special as you may think you are, you are nothing more than an APE!!

Why is it PROOF of anything other than chimps and humans are both Terran creatures, with similar body structures?  Don't programmers, the really good, really effective programmers use the same subroutines over and over sometimes just making whatever small changes are required for the subroutine to accomplish a different activity?  If really good human programmers are intelligent enough to do this, why wouldn't God do the same thing?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#64    JeremyGTS

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:58 PM

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Why is it PROOF of anything other than chimps and humans are both Terran creatures, with similar body structures?  Don't programmers, the really good, really effective programmers use the same subroutines over and over sometimes just making whatever small changes are required for the subroutine to accomplish a different activity?  If really good human programmers are intelligent enough to do this, why wouldn't God do the same thing?


why wouldnt that be proof? just because i human will program a PC program with the same basic lines does not in any way suggest  god would do the same thing if there is one...   i guess i see things different than you... i just dont know how anyone that has actually looked at the fossil record could thnk otherwise.

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#65    Jim88

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 09:40 PM

Ok, I checked out that website. Those aren't fossilized human footprints on that website. Most of them are dinosaur tracks and some of them are carvings they made.

Do you have any other evidence that humans lived alongside dinosaurs? That first site doesn't prove anything and the second site has been proven to be wrong. So far none of the evidence holds up.

1. Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder.

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#66    draconic chronicler

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 12:50 AM

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so sharing 98% DNA with chimps does not show that humans may have came from apes?  or is that a prank by "god" or something? get real people i know if this is true this mean you are not special as you may think you are, you are nothing more than an APE!!


Actually, you can look at this the other way, and marvel that there would only be apes in this world if God did not "improve" a chimp-like primate to create mankind.  

Many scientists can find their belief in God, Evolution, and an earth billions of years old compatible.  The dragons descirbed living alongside men in the Bible are not dinosaurs.  They talk and sing praises to God.  They are clearly some kind of supernatural creature.  The last dinosuars died out millions of years before mankind appeared.  The talking, singing dragons that hang out in heaven until God sends them to kill people, may bear a superficial resemblence to dinosuars in that they are large and reptilian in nature.  The Christians who push the dinosaurs and humans living together are ignorant of their own religion and do not realize that the Biblical dragons are heavenly creatures and are not dinosaurs.


#67    fullywired

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 11:53 AM

[quote name='Dark Arc' date='Apr 15 2007, 08:43 PM' post='1630313']
   1.  Some Scientific Laws Against ANY Form of Evolution.



1.        The Laws of Thermodynamics (Heat Energy).




b.       The second law states that energy in a closed system[1] will   run out. This is called ENTROPY. All forms of energy run down like a watch. For example: things do not grow toward order and cleanliness by accident (ask any housewife with kids). Nothing is in the process of "evolving" (getting better, and more advanced, and more powerful), but rather EVERYTHING which can be seen demonstrates dissipation, disintegration, decay and degeneration. Nothing is "improved" unless it is worked on by an outside force! This Law is stated in Isaiah 51:6, and does away with Theory A since if the universe had always been here, it would have "burned-out" long ago! Even though matter and energy cannot disappear, energy is always slowing down - never increasing (and never being replaced)! An example is the burning of a fire log. The log burns, and produces heat energy. That energy is then gone from the log, and cannot be produced from the same log anymore.



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I think there is a problem here ,you are assuming that the universe is a closed system, there is an alternative theory that it is an expanding universe


"We are not sure if the universe will expand forever or will it eventually start to contract. The best definition of an expanding universe is to use the laws of thermodynamics. which states that entropy is increasing, or simply put that the energy in the universe is increasing. "




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#68    Jim88

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:27 PM

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I think there is a problem here ,you are assuming that the universe is a closed system, there is an alternative theory that it is an expanding universe
"We are not sure if the universe will expand forever or will it eventually start to contract. The best definition of an expanding universe is to use the laws of thermodynamics. which states that entropy is increasing, or simply put that the energy in the universe is increasing. "


That's not what the second law of thermodynamics says. It says the entropy in a closed system must increase. Entropy is not energy. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't say the energy in the universe is increasing. It actually predicts just the opposite, that the universe will eventually burn out.



1. Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder.

Tao Te Ching

#69    JeremyGTS

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:49 PM

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Actually, you can look at this the other way, and marvel that there would only be apes in this world if God did not "improve" a chimp-like primate to create mankind.



yeah i guess i can see where youre coming from there and ive had similar thoughts to that as of UFOs and junk... i guess there are some things we will never know...  hmm.gif

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#70    fullywired

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 05:56 PM

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That's not what the second law of thermodynamics says. It says the entropy in a closed system must increase. Entropy is not energy. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't say the energy in the universe is increasing. It actually predicts just the opposite, that the universe will eventually burn out.



I didn't say what the second law said I quoted what the other poster said and he quoted a closed system and I pointed out that some believed in an expanding universe

Quote

If the system is indeed closed, the level of entropy is and always will be the same; the decrease in the energy of the universe, its "running down," is a purely local phenomenon. However, we must not overlook the possibility that the universe is an open system and that some new source of energy will be introduced and, so to speak, wind things back up again. This is considered unlikely


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#71    Harte

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 06:20 PM

Open or closed doesn't matter one whit. Nor does expansion, contraction or stasis.

The universe is big.  Earth is small.  Just because entropy decreases locally, like on Earth, that doesn't mean that overall entropy in the universe is decreasing.  All the second law refers to is the entropy in a closed system.  Doesn't say a thing about a tiny subset of that closed system.

The Earth, when considered to be a system in this sense, can only be an open system, as was stated earlier.  This is because energy is constantly being inserted into the system (you know, like from the Sun.)

Harte

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#72    Jim88

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 06:33 PM

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I didn't say what the second law said I quoted what the other poster said and he quoted a closed system and I pointed out that some believed in an expanding universe


I see. Why didn't you just tell him the universe is expanding? Scientists can prove the universe is expanding. They have observed it.

Quote

If the system is indeed closed, the level of entropy is and always will be the same; the decrease in the energy of the universe, its "running down," is a purely local phenomenon. However, we must not overlook the possibility that the universe is an open system and that some new source of energy will be introduced and, so to speak, wind things back up again. This is considered unlikely


Where did you get this quote? Whoever wrote it doesn't understand the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy can't be the same. It must increase.

I don't even understand why people even use that way of stating the second law of thermodynamics. There are simpler ways of stating it. Stating it in terms of entropy has got to be the worst way to state it.  

Read the quote below. It is a simpler way of stating the second law of thermodynamics.

Quote

It is impossible for any system to operate in such a way that the sole result would be an energy transfer by heat from a cooler to a hotter body.

"Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics", 1996, Michael J Moran, Howard N Shapiro, John Wiley and Sons, Inc.


Isn't that much simpler? Stated that way you can see evolution clearly doesn't violate it.


Edited by Jim88, 24 April 2007 - 06:35 PM.

1. Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder.

Tao Te Ching

#73    fullywired

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 07:42 PM

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I see. Why didn't you just tell him the universe is expanding? Scientists can prove the universe is expanding. They have observed it.
Where did you get this quote? Whoever wrote it doesn't understand the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy can't be the same. It must increase.

I don't even understand why people even use that way of stating the second law of thermodynamics. There are simpler ways of stating it. Stating it in terms of entropy has got to be the worst way to state it.  

Read the quote below. It is a simpler way of stating the second law of thermodynamics.
Isn't that much simpler? Stated that way you can see evolution clearly doesn't violate it.



The reason I didn't tell him that the universe is expanding was because I don't know if it is .I said some believe in an expanding Universe

just as there are other views of the Universe model ie flat model .open model and oscillating model none of which have been explained satisfactorily

plus the fact  that I don't know enough about it to be telling anybody anything ,which does not stop me from suggesting things when I see something presented as a fact when it is only a supposition

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#74    Jim88

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 07:58 PM

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The reason I didn't tell him that the universe is expanding was because I don't know if it is .I said some believe in an expanding Universe

just as there are other views of the Universe model ie flat model .open model and oscillating model none of which have been explained satisfactorily

plus the fact  that I don't know enough about it to be telling anybody anything ,which does not stop me from suggesting things when I see something presented as a fact when it is only a supposition


That's why cosmologists theorize the universe started from an explosion because they've observed it expanding.

Read this it explains how scientists know the universe is expanding.

http://physics.about.com/od/lightoptics/a/doplight.htm

I didn't even know there were so many models for the universe.

1. Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder.

Tao Te Ching

#75    fullywired

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:14 PM

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That's why cosmologists theorize the universe started from an explosion because they've observed it expanding.

Read this it explains how scientists know the universe is expanding.

http://physics.about.com/od/lightoptics/a/doplight.htm

I didn't even know there were so many models for the universe.


I was aware of the "red and blue shift " when objects are receding and advancing  but I did find this


The theory  known as the heat-death of the universe. Though it is based on two strong assumptions (entropy and the idea that the universe is a closed system), it is not widely accepted by cosmologists. The more popular theory is that different areas of the universe are governed by different laws of physics, and that entropy does not necessarily apply to the entire universe.

so it would appear that for every theory there is an equal and opposite one LOL

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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)




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