[hadeka]

Hi all

I would like to open here, an open discussion between all interested members here.
This discussion, is about the origin of consciousness.
How did consciousness appear ?!

According to Neurology, consciousness is a result of brain activity ===> Consciousness is a result of matter.
But according to Quantum Physics, matter cannot exist, wthout consciousness ====> according to many interpratation of Quantum physics, such as "The copenhagen interpratation".
It is related to the idea of observer effect.

So, i would like to know all views and opinions about this paradox here.
And what everyone think about the origin of consciousness.

thank you'

Waiting for an interesting open discussion/debate here.


Hadeka

[brave_new_world]

Quote

Hi all

I would like to open here, an open discussion between all interested members here.
This discussion, is about the origin of consciousness.
How did consciousness appear ?!

According to Neurology, consciousness is a result of brain activity ===> Consciousness is a result of matter.
But according to Quantum Physics, matter cannot exist, wthout consciousness ====> according to many interpratation of Quantum physics, such as "The copenhagen interpratation".
It is related to the idea of observer effect.

So, i would like to know all views and opinions about this paradox here.
And what everyone think about the origin of consciousness.

thank you'

Waiting for an interesting open discussion/debate here.
Hadeka

Consciousness does not have an origin. It is eternal. Eternity has no beginning or end it just is.

[psychicalison]

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Consciousness does not have an origin. It is eternal. Eternity has no beginning or end it just is.

Hi there,

I don't know much about quantum physics (but am interested in learning!) but as far as consciousness is concerned, I think that it is something mental, physical, spiritual and emotional. Surely consciousness in being aware of all these things in a subjective way? What I mean is, how you relate to all these areas yourself - and how they integrate into your life, beliefs, etc. So isn't consciousness 'personal awareness'? And isn't there neural activity when our brain is active - which it would be when encompassing these things?

Be great to chat to you about this... and anyone else of course!

Alison at The London College of Psychic and Personal Development http://www.psychictuition.com

This post has been edited by psychicalison: 11 May 2007 - 01:39 PM

[brave_new_world]

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Hi there,

I don't know much about quantum physics (but am interested in learning!) but as far as consciousness is concerned, I think that it is something mental, physical, spiritual and emotional. Surely consciousness in being aware of all these things in a subjective way? What I mean is, how you relate to all these areas yourself - and how they integrate into your life, beliefs, etc. So isn't consciousness 'personal awareness'? And isn't there neural activity when our brain is active - which it would be when encompassing these things?

Be great to chat to you about this... and anyone else of course!

Alison at The London College of Psychic and Personal Development http://www.psychictuition.com

Personal consciousness or "I-thought" you could say is temporary and illusory. For it disappears in unconscious sleep (without dreams) but consciousness itself never disappears (unconsciousness is a form of consciousness.

Reality is viewed in the cortexes of the brain and the brain itself is a thought that is known by awareness/consciousness. Therefore consciousness is the fundamental of all reality. True consciousness or abstract consciousness is beyond consciousness and unconsciousness.

It is consciousness not identifying with "I-thought" but consciousness identifying with consciousness itself or put in other words true consciousness is just awareness but of nothing inparticular.

'Bah! The universe can be grasped only by the sentient hand. That hand is what drives your precious brain, and it drives everything else that derives from the brain. You see what you have created , you become sentient , only after the hand has done its work!'

--- The Preacher

[TheLikeness]

elaborate on this por favor...

"according to Quantum Physics, matter cannot exist, wthout consciousness ====> according to many interpratation of Quantum physics"

[Leonardo]

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But according to Quantum Physics, matter cannot exist, wthout consciousness ====> according to many interpratation of Quantum physics, such as "The copenhagen interpratation".
It is related to the idea of observer effect.

Quote

elaborate on this por favor...

"according to Quantum Physics, matter cannot exist, wthout consciousness ====> according to many interpratation of Quantum physics"

Indeed...I suspect the belief that QP suggests matter cannot exist without consciousness is simply a misunderstanding of what Quantum Theory is all about.

Take the Copenhagen Interpretation as an example. Nowhere does it state or imply that 'matter doesn't exist without consciousness'. It does imply that we cannot know what state matter may be in unless we observe it - but this implication is not identical to the commonly held misunderstanding.


...can also be said as..."The observer effect is not about choice or causality it is about uncertainty."

...can also be said as..."Consciousness doesn't 'choose' or 'cause' matter to exist, it observes the state of that matter that does exist."

[brave_new_world]

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Indeed...I suspect the belief that QP suggests matter cannot exist without consciousness is simply a misunderstanding of what Quantum Theory is all about.

Take the Copenhagen Interpretation as an example. Nowhere does it state or imply that 'matter doesn't exist without consciousness'. It does imply that we cannot know what state matter may be in unless we observe it - but this implication is not identical to the commonly held misunderstanding.
...can also be said as..."The observer effect is not about choice or causality it is about uncertainty."

...can also be said as..."Consciousness doesn't 'choose' or 'cause' matter to exist, it observes the state of that matter that does exist."

But how can we prove matter exists without consciousness?

[Leonardo]

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But how can we prove matter exists without consciousness?

In the solipsist universe you cannot, but can you prove consciousness exists?

[brave_new_world]

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In the solipsist universe you cannot, but can you prove consciousness exists?

Easy. Because everyone feels that they are.

[Leonardo]

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Easy. Because everyone feels that they are.

Then it's just as reasonable to say matter exists because everyone can feel it???

You say you 'feel you are' but can you prove these 'feelings' aren't simply an illusion of some greater consciousness?

You see the point I am making, brave. If you believe in the solipsist world-view it's pointless asking questions about the nature of things because you won't believe what anyone says and you have no point of reference from which to base an opinion. If you truly 'believe' you are you, that your consciousness exists then you have a baseline and the rest of reality can be determined from that according to what your consciousness perceives. Whether it is 'real' or illusory is immaterial as that is your reality. If you truly believe it is not your reality then you don't believe 'you' exist and any questions you have are irrelevant.

[brave_new_world]

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Then it's just as reasonable to say matter exists because everyone can feel it???

You say you 'feel you are' but can you prove these 'feelings' aren't simply an illusion of some greater consciousness?

Whether it be greater or smaller consciousness is irelevant. The point is that there is consciousness.

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You see the point I am making, brave. If you believe in the solipsist world-view it's pointless asking questions about the nature of things because you won't believe what anyone says and you have no point of reference from which to base an opinion.

And why would this be bad?

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If you truly 'believe' you are you, that your consciousness exists then you have a baseline and the rest of reality can be determined from that according to what your consciousness perceives. Whether it is 'real' or illusory is immaterial as that is your reality. If you truly believe it is not your reality then you don't believe 'you' exist and any questions you have are irrelevant.

Behold, O Man, you can create life. You can destroy life. But, lo, you have no choice but to experience life. And therein lies your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Orange Catholic Bible,
Book of Kemla Septima, 5:3

[Leonardo]

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Whether it be greater or smaller consciousness is irelevant. The point is that there is consciousness.
And why would this be bad?
Behold, O Man, you can create life. You can destroy life. But, lo, you have no choice but to experience life. And therein lies your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Orange Catholic Bible,
Book of Kemla Septima, 5:3

But why is there consciousness?

You see, you are basing this on your own experience of consciousness but this may be just as illusory as your experience of matter. What you consider consciousness may not exist.

If that is the case [it may not exist] then it violates the belief of solipsism to state that consciousness creates reality because the solipsist isn't even sure consciousness itself exists. For you to believe in your consciousness, or any consciousness, based on your own experience you therefore must believe in reality.

[brave_new_world]

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But why is there consciousness?

Why should there be a purpose? Purpose creates limits.

Knowledge,you see, has no uses without purpose, but purpose is what builds enclosing walls.

--- The Tyrant

Infinite consciousness transends all including purpose.

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You see, you are basing this on your own experience of consciousness but this may be just as illusory as your experience of matter. What you consider consciousness may not exist.

Existence and non-existence are both forms of existence. Non-existence is the existence of no existence. Consciousness isnt consciousness but a word. What i speak of lies beyond both unconsciousness and consciousness. It may not exist but my intuition says it does exist and I have faith in it thus.

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If that is the case [it may not exist] then it violates the belief of solipsism to state that consciousness creates reality because the solipsist isn't even sure consciousness itself exists. For you to believe in your consciousness, or any consciousness, based on your own experience you therefore must believe in reality.

To me both reality and consciousness are one and the same. EVERYTHING IS CONSCIOUSNESS in my view. How can it be descirbed? It cant. But i will try anyway. It is like a circle in which the centre is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.

[Manni]

Consciousness is created for us to survive, the universe is evolving and we're a part of it.

Universe is easy to understand, its only energy going from one side to another, from pole + to minus pole, there's too much on one side and there's too few on another.

Now what's the deal with consciousness ? Universe is simple but the process is getting more and more complicated, from small organisms able to share a little info at a time to us, humans who have a complexity degree far superior, we're better machines, it's like comparing a very old PC to a brand new quantum computer, the speed and efficience of information is growing, the kind of information we're able to work with too.

Consciousness is the veil that shows us things the perfect way, the way we have to react to events. Eating and drinking may be seen as energy gathering, sleep may be seen as information cleansing... But it's far more complicated as we have friends, history, family and everything else composing the world.

The world is the amount of information the universe gathered till now, it appears in front of our eyes when we need it, as our brain works, we think about something when we need to think about it or when we're ready to work on it. Our "job" is to use all these information to fix problems, show more problems which should be issued and evolve to the perfect universe.

You may even see perfection as the infinite or the minus pole.

[rev r]

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I don't know much about quantum physics (but am interested in learning!) but as far as consciousness is concerned, I think that it is something mental, physical, spiritual and emotional. Surely consciousness in being aware of all these things in a subjective way? What I mean is, how you relate to all these areas yourself - and how they integrate into your life, beliefs, etc. So isn't consciousness 'personal awareness'? And isn't there neural activity when our brain is active - which it would be when encompassing these things?

Be great to chat to you about this... and anyone else of course!

Yes consciousness would be "personal awareness" but it is not separate from form, perception, thought or feeling.

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Personal consciousness or "I-thought" you could say is temporary and illusory. For it disappears in unconscious sleep (without dreams) but consciousness itself never disappears (unconsciousness is a form of consciousness.

Reality is viewed in the cortexes of the brain and the brain itself is a thought that is known by awareness/consciousness. Therefore consciousness is the fundamental of all reality. True consciousness or abstract consciousness is beyond consciousness and unconsciousness.

It is consciousness not identifying with "I-thought" but consciousness identifying with consciousness itself or put in other words true consciousness is just awareness but of nothing inparticular.

There was once a master who placed a bell on the ground next to him and challenged his students "to reveal the true nature of this object." The students thought for a while until one student rose, appraoched the bell and rung it, to which the master replied, "Correct!"