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MANKINDS BIGGEST MISTAKE!


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#16    zukie&jim

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 11:45 PM

geez--my"powers" are telling me some little green men got the disk from voyager --there thinking of  playing it and -one of them says to the other ' WTF is this ? the other LGM says  it must be the bee-gee's--remember that radio transmission from earth year 1977!!  the bee-gee's?!!!  and tosses it into the space-dumpster--


#17    Captain Kolak

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 12:23 AM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!$@!#%@#%@#                    


Okay... calmed down....  the point of the spacecraft ws to study the planets which were in alignment, the probe thingy ws a bonus basically

Saying that gaps in the fossil record invalidate evolution is much like saying time doesn't exist between ticks of your digital watch

#18    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 12:30 AM

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hey peoples, waspie dwarf your totally correct about the radio waves/broadcasts being sent out further than the golden record probe.

But maybe "aliens" dont use that technology at all, i mean, they prolly went another way or a different path/branch, and tapped into a technology we will never discover, for example, we started with basics of physical technology, like satelites and tv's, when they could have started with something totally different.
Whilst it is possible (even likely) that these hypothetical aliens could use some sort of technology that we haven't thought of yet it is highly unlikely that any advanced civilisation would not be aware of radio.

Advanced scientific principles must follow on from simpler ones. You simply can not skip large areas of basic physics and arrive at an advanced state of knowledge. This would like a child learning differential calculus with out first learning basic arithmetic or writing a best selling novel without learning the alphabet.

The understanding of electromagnetic radiation sufficient to understand radio is a comparatively basic principle, it is next to impossible that a race could be significantly more advanced than us scientifically without knowing these basic principles.

We don't use gamma rays to communicate but we know about them and can select them. If a near by alien race did use them it is only a mater of time before we would realise that such signals were artificial in origin.

As for "technology we will never discover" that is irrelevant. You are talking about them discovering us not the other way round. It is what they know that is relevant.

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im getting confused here right now, figuring out how to explain it.
That much is clear.

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And how do we know, that it hasnt been picked up already by aliens.
If by this you mean the Voyager spacecraft then the fact that they are still operating and sending back signals to Earth should be a pretty good clue that no alien has whisked them off.

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Remember they are so advanced they zoom through space as if they were on a sunday trip to the beach.
As the Voyager spacecraft have not even made it to the edge of the solar system these "advanced" aliens of yours would have to have been remarkably stupid to have got that close to Earth and not realised that the 3rd planet from the sun had a technological species on it long before they found Voyager.

We are already planning future space based telescope that could take a spectrum of a planet around a star several light years away and would be able to find evidence of Earth like industry. We will be able to do this in the next decade or so and yet your hypothetical "advanced" aliens can't do this from a few hundred million miles away.

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and there is a lot to worry about. Stop thinking that they will be peaceful and come in peace with the hand signal and all. Because this isnt the movies.
No it is pure fantasy.

QUOTE(Adama @ Jun 20 2007, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There governements are prolly keeping us from there public.
So if they are already here and being hidden from us by the government exactly how do the Voyager spacecraft pose a threat? This argument is illogical and contradictory when applied to your original argument.

QUOTE(Adama @ Jun 20 2007, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I they come they will take advantage of us. or maybe it is the other way around and we are the the so called advanced civilisation in the universe.
And this is based on what evidence exactly? I ask you again, how do you know how a totally alien species will think or act?

QUOTE(Adama @ Jun 20 2007, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but we will never know, unless we get hard proof, and the only way to start is to get the governements to speak or make them speak.
Herein lies a paradox. You say there is no hard proof. If there is no hard proof then, logically, there can be no hard proof of a government cover up. If there is no proof of a government cover up how then can you know that the government has anything to reveal anyway?

In bringing in government conspiracies and alien invaders you are rapidly taking this topic in a direction that would be more suitable either for the Extraterrestrial Life & The UFO Phenomenon forum or the Conspiracies & Secret Societies forum rather than the Space and Astronomy  forum. I am seriously considering moving it.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#19    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 12:35 AM

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the point of the spacecraft ws to study the planets which were in alignment, the probe thingy ws a bonus basically


Perfectly correct, however, Adama is correct about the purpose of the records. He doesn't seem to know that Pioneers 10 and 11 also carried plaques which locate the Earth, but I won't tell him if you don't

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#20    REBEL

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 04:25 AM

IMO...
MANKIND'S BIGGEST MISTAKE!...

The rape and or destruction of some if not most of the world's ancient and cultural esoteric past over the last 2,000 yrs or so...
Ancient manuscripts/texts/treasures etc.
One of the worst though would have to be the ''mysterious destruction'' of Library of Alexandria

JMO.


#21    Moe

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 05:43 AM

let them find us, life sucks anyways.


#22    Captain Kolak

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 09:36 PM

perfectly put


like so many have said, the only way humanity can have a chance of getting back on track is if we meet aliens (as a whole species)

Saying that gaps in the fossil record invalidate evolution is much like saying time doesn't exist between ticks of your digital watch

#23    bee

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 10:18 PM

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[how do you know how a totally alien species will think or act?


None of us know how a totally alien species would think or act, I think this is the point Adama is making.

Sending stuff like this out into space is an act of faith.

If by the VERY slim chance it is found and looked at....presumably the senders of information like this

think that who-ever finds it will have good intentions.

Fingers crossed.


#24    Captain Kolak

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 11:22 PM

well aliens supposedly already make contact with people and study us in their UFO's. With the amount of sighting now days and far back in our past, it has to be taken more seriously. The answer to life other than on Earth just may be right infront of our noses. And we are too oblivious to notice and take seriously.

Saying that gaps in the fossil record invalidate evolution is much like saying time doesn't exist between ticks of your digital watch

#25    MID

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 01:03 AM

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Hey,
       All of you remember the Voyager Golden Record, yes?, well if not, let me inform you all with the details.

The Voyager Golden Record is a phonograph record included in the two Voyager spacecraft launched in 1977. It contains sounds and images selected to portray the diversity of life and culture on Earth. It is intended for any intelligent extraterrestrial life form, or far future humans, that may find it. The Voyager spacecraft will take about 40,000 years to come near another star, 'near' meaning in this case within around 1.7 light-years' distance; hence, if other beings do not come in the direction of the spacecraft to meet them, it will take at least that long for the Golden Record to be found.

As the probes are extremely small compared to the vastness of interstellar space, it is extraordinarily unlikely that they will ever be intercepted. If they are ever found by an alien species, it will be far in the future, and thus the record is best seen as a symbolic statement rather than a serious attempt to communicate with aliens.

Other things that are on these probes are symbols of man and where our planet Earth is located!

The records hold sounds of life on Earth, like animals, human conversations, music, videos, images, our science and technology knowlegde and our thoughts and feelings.

The record also holds 55 languages!

There is a 90minute electric selection of music from many cultures and countries.

The Voyagers Golden Record's mission is to come in contact with extraterrestrials or inteliegence greater than our own.
Nasa has done a MASSIVE mistake of sending this probe to outer space and beyond, All of us just better hope that the probe never completes its mission. If inteliegence greater than our own find this, they will see that we have not even tapped into the advances of technology and will take advantage of us with the help of a map provided by us on the side of the probe.

Plz share your thoughts and comments. Thx




Perhaps you think that an advanced extra-terrestrial civilization, capable of interstellar travel, will see an opportunity to conquer us though the highly unlikely dicovery of this tiny artifact?


What?

They'll take advantage of us?

For WHAT?   "Oh, well, let's go conquer these primitive folks!"  They can travel interstellar distances and they'd want to conquer a civilization that has only stepped out into the shallow waters of the universe with primitive spacecraft?  

A civilization that will probably find it fascinating to find other life in the universe....taking advantage of us?  


Me thinks you watch too many alien movies or something...

An advanced civilization, coming upon Voyager, would probably be enthralled beyond belief at the discovery!  
They'd study it for years.   Proof of intelligent life.   Perhaps they'd come to an understanding of us...perhaps not.   Maybe they'd come here...and observe.  


What makes you thiik that a civilization capable of such an accomplishment would even think of causing trouble, conquering us, invading?

The idea is ludicrous.





#26    Startraveler

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 08:19 AM

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An advanced civilization, coming upon Voyager, would probably be enthralled beyond belief at the discovery!  
They'd study it for years.   Proof of intelligent life.   Perhaps they'd come to an understanding of us...perhaps not.   Maybe they'd come here...and observe.  
What makes you thiik that a civilization capable of such an accomplishment would even think of causing trouble, conquering us, invading?


I'm curious what you base that on? An extrapolation of human society? I imagine that's what the original poster was doing, as well. I'm not sure I subscribe to that idea that a scientific people is necessarily a peaceful people. Science may promote rationality but it can't create it; at best it can amplify it. It may be a candle in the dark but candles don't do all that great a job of driving out darkness. Never in human history have we been as scientifically and technologically advanced as we are right now, and yet we remain an aggressive, pseudoscience-loving bunch.

As always, psychological and social factors will determine how a people act and how they respond to any event or stimulus. Starting only with the presumption that science plays some role in their society, I don't know how we can draw any other conclusions about their behavior. I'd like to believe that spacefaring societies end up as utopian Federation types but I wouldn't pretend that considering alternate possibilities is ridiculous.


#27    MID

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 05:59 PM

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I'm curious what you base that on? An extrapolation of human society? I imagine that's what the original poster was doing, as well. I'm not sure I subscribe to that idea that a scientific people is necessarily a peaceful people. Science may promote rationality but it can't create it; at best it can amplify it. It may be a candle in the dark but candles don't do all that great a job of driving out darkness. Never in human history have we been as scientifically and technologically advanced as we are right now, and yet we remain an aggressive, pseudoscience-loving bunch.



Interesting query...

I think you're correct.  My assumption is based on an extrapolation of human society, just as the OP's posit was.  This of course is only natural because human society is the only intelligent societal paradigm that we have any knowledge of.   There is no other reference.

I approach the situation from the positive side, and the OP obviously from the negative side.  I see the behaviors of advanced people, great scientific minds, and he sees the behavior of those who are not quite so advanced, and have a propensity to be overtly territorial, to attack and occupy, and to conquer.

I think, based upon what has been accomplished to date by humans, one can conclude that the more scientifically advanced, in the areas of exploration, the less likely they are to be agressive, violent, or territorial. One can then assume that any sufficiently advanced society, which, as a whole, has evolved to the point of being in support of, and developing the significantly advanced technologies to attain interstellar travel, would have to apportion their energies in that direction to a very high degree and as such, would devote much, much less of their total energy to the more base aspects of culture.

And again, we only have human endeavor as a frame of reference.

I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that if von Braun, under Hitler, was a bonified Nazi, hell bent on exterminating people, we would not today have the technology of spaceflight that we do, and likely would have never landed on the Moon.   But von Braun, as is the case with most all advanced scientists, had a higher purpose in his endeavors, and escaped from what was essentially captivity and forced compliance under Hitler, to surrender himself and his group to the U.S. forces.     There is a distinct reason why he didn't surrender to the Soviets as well.

He realized, as a genius, that totalitarian regimes and true scientific accomplishment do not go hand in hand.  He was able to apply his considerable skills here in the U.S. in a manner concurreent with his mindset, for purposes of peace and exploration, rather than to create a more effective weapon.

Let us also look at our still primitive society, as far as space exploration is concerned.  We are no where near the ability to travel interstellar distances of course.  Yet, in the 1960s, scientists, and far sighted government officials recognized that space should not, and cannot be subject to territoriality, and military weapons applications, and treaties were entered into then to prohibit such things.

If we humans can enter into such far-sighted agreements, expressing lofty and peaceful attitudes, one should think that a significantly more advanced society would most assuredly have done that, and much more.    

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As always, psychological and social factors will determine how a people act and how they respond to any event or stimulus. Starting only with the presumption that science plays some role in their society, I don't know how we can draw any other conclusions about their behavior. I'd like to believe that spacefaring societies end up as utopian Federation types but I wouldn't pretend that considering alternate possibilities is ridiculous.


If I start with the presumption that science plays some role in their society (and, how could such a society not be scientific--to a major degree--in having attained interstellar exploratory capabilities?), I would, based upon the only models I know, assume that they were peaceful, non-interfering, and expansive in their enlightenment....since humans have exhibited similar traits on occassion, and humans aren't nearly that advanced.

In observing human behavior, it can readily be seen that the reason that we have not technically done any space exploration in the past 35 years is because social energy has been devoted to politics, defense, and of course, battling with much lesser types of humans who are trying to eliminate others because of moronic ideologic and religious reasons.  We put a little into space, and alot into other areas...perhaps necessarily, since the majority of human society is not sufficiently advanced attitudinally to appreciate unity among men.   Religions, totalitarianism, etc., are deterring factors in social evolution.

Thus, I can only consider that a society which devotes massive resources and energy to space exploration must certainly devote much less energy to those other areas.  I think they would have, as a whole, evolved beyond the need for massive expenditures in defense, and massive expenditures doing battle with their own.  And, if that is the case, I can also assume that they would have no particular wish to employ their vast technological resources toward invading another world.   Exploring it, certainly, but not attacking, occupying, or invading it.   If we're advanced enough to enter treaties that prohibit such things...despite the fact that we have no chance of doing any real exploration for years to come...then why would a much more advanced civilization even think about such things?

Thus, I say--based upon the only frame of reference I know--that the notion of such an advanced society invading us is ludicrous.

If I'm wrong, I should think that the universe is in alot of trouble!




#28    Primeval

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 06:03 PM

They might be smarter than us, but i guarantee you they don't kill as good as us.

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#29    MusicIsLife

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 06:40 PM

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Hey i appreciate what you mean by that,
                                                         but what if the aliens pick it up tomorrow or even they have already picked it up and they are studiying us. Remember they are advanced and can prolly travel throughout the universe like its a sunday trip to the beach, and how do you know were at the edge of the universe.

and you are correct about them sending a simple message to us, but it will seem to advanced for us to understand. But remember there advanced and they will take this into factor and will send a message we will understand. Maybe images or symbols, since that is the universal way of communicating with different langauges and cultures.

Im from VIC, how you doing?



Why do people always assume that they aren't like us, curios about life on other planets.  Maybe they mean no harm,  hell, what if we are the most advanced civilization technology wise.  We will not know until it bites us in the ass, or we bite them, whichever.  XD


#30    bee

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 07:22 PM

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[An advanced civilization, coming upon Voyager, would probably be enthralled beyond belief at the discovery!  
They'd study it for years.   Proof of intelligent life.   Perhaps they'd come to an understanding of us...perhaps not.


Although...'enthralled beyond belief'.....might be putting it a bit strongly....so far so good.



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Maybe they'd come here...and observe.



And this could be when it all goes pear-shaped!

What they MIGHT observe is a war-like species...that has little respect for each other, other life forms and the

planet itself.....

Then they MIGHT think....(in their own way!) "Oh my goodness me....there was nothing about all this mayhem

on the artifact in space.....those humans...HAVE GOT TO GO!!


PS....I know we're not all bad....but we're pretty messed up a lot of the time!  






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