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The Gatton Murder Mystery


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#331    HollyDolly

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

Well the whole thing is just gets weirder and weirder.For one thing, the call of supposedly "Father,Father" might have been one of the girls calling for their parent,their bological father,and not in reference to any priest. B. Secondly, regardless of the Irish in Queensland, and maybe an irish priest being the killer,what would be the motive to cover that fact up? Don't forget, this was still a time of ANTI CATHOLIC SENTIMENT. There were printed various anit-catholic books like Maria Monk's Awful Disclosures, and various others even into the 1900s both in America and England. Would be rather a trimuph to the protestants running the show to say,hey look at what their clergy did.It would disgust a lot of people and make fertile ground for protestant preachers to go around trying to convert Catholics .

Another thing is really strange. Why does Patrick Quinn mention about the horse. He says he saw the horse dead at the sulky,when he helped retrieve the bodies.
No blood in the sulky,and the horse was shot in the head.Fair enough.But here comes the really weird part. He states"The horse had a hole in its head.THE HORSE"S PENIS HAD NOT BEEN REMOVED NOR INTERFERRED WITH????!!!! What the Hades?Why would the killer or killers even if it was supposedly a priest,bother with the horse's penis? If the killer took a souvenir from at least the women,he might take a ribbon from their hair or dresses,a glove(women wore gloves in those days) a stocking , handkerchief, hat pin or some other article of clothing like their bloomers as a rememberance of his dirty deed. he wouldn't take a horse's penis.
The only reason that the whole subject about the horse's penis not being removed or interfered with only makes sense to me in one context. I don't know the area or the victims, but it gives me the idea that he knew something more about the victims  than the rest of the public. Interfereing with the horses penis sounds like maybe someone was in the habit of masterbating the horse. All one has to do is type in bestiality in any search engine and one can get all kinds  of porn images I imagine of women and men having sex with animals.There have been quite a few cases of this nature now and then in the news. Makes me wonder if the girls did so.maybe the brother also joined in .Or he watched them and later had sex with his sisters afterwords. Maybe the word "Father" was  refering to their own father who somehow discovered what was going on and confronted them. Maybe he raped his daughters because he consisdered them whores for doing so. Wouldn't be the first father who sexually abused or raped his own flesh or blood. Not trying to damage the victims reputations, but that  IF Quinn made the statement, it's so bizarre that that's the only thing that comes to mind.


#332    HollyDolly

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:16 PM

Okay,on page 23 I put forth my theory based on what Patrick Michael Quinn  supposedly told the police back in 1973 with regards to helping with the bodies of the Murphys and his obersvation of the horse's body.I wonder if no one has posted anything because I somehow hit a raw nerve, or uncovered something that shouldn't have been.Maybe a priest who has been mentioned before maybe was the killer,and did rape the girls for the reason I stated.


#333    Nikki-3

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

I don't know what significance it would have been in regards to the comments made about the horse in the police report.
In those years things were not as complicated as today,   no forensics, no proper investigation so much speculation that a case like this turns into a real mystery.

In my opinion, I believe that the rage and force used in the murders were more personal.  Even if this Quinn had an opportunity for a revenge, somehow the brutal attack towards the girls just doesn't seem right with what he was upset about.    Another issue which comes to my mind is if this Quinn on the spur of the moment engaged some louts to help him out,  I just don't see this happening,  because one of them would have in  some drunken stupor told someone or let it slip.

I believe that the murders were because of a woman.  If Michael was a womaniser,  he would have had I presume enough enemies,  if he got his neighbor pregnant & ignored the fact in those days I think her family would not only have felt disgraced but p###  off enough to hold a tremendous grudge.   If the girl died having an abortion,  I think the anger and rage would have been far greater than any union issue.

The neighbors had the opportunity to see them go by,  they knew the area well.   It was one thing to murder Michael,  & whoever did it,  if they did not want the girls to be witnesses they could have simply shot them,    such rage, skull bashing, raping,   it somehow sends a powerful message & the accumulated anger would have subsided to some extent with the murders.

Somehow it seems to easy to convict Quinn to the murders,   because he was hiding his past, a murderer, held a grudge,?  the brutality of the crime does not fit with this man,  even with all of the mentioned theories,  I find it hard to believe,


#334    Antilles

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:51 AM

The 2 sisters were gang raped so there had to be more than one perp.

The brother was killed to stop him from trying to save his sisters which makes sense, as does killing the horse so no-one could try to use it to escape.


#335    Nikki-3

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:58 AM

Yes,  killing the horse so no one escapes/stopping the horse from fleeing alone,  logical,  it is the other stuff about the horse which I wrote makes no sense, " penis " ect,     in my point of view has no relevance

I strongly believe it was family member/s of the neighbor who died having an abortion. who were involved in the murders,  that is why it remained a mystery,     throughout history we can see that family secrets are the best kept ones,   I believe that the family saw this as justice,   if their daughter was not only disgraced,  but died,   this would explain the force & brutality used towards the sisters,  they too would never have a family like their daughter,  & would pay with their lives, just as their daughter did.

Again,  theory that Quinn engaged these other men on the spur of the moment,  just does not make sense,  Quinn was already a murderer, etc,    he was obviously devious and calculated enough to have kept his identity hidden for a long time until Michael outed him,      Quinn was reported as saying he was going to kill Michael,      does this prove he had something to do with his murder,    I think not,     in anger people say a lot of things,    how many times have you heard a mother saying she was going to kill her kid as he/she didn't clean up his room,  & yet that never happens,   it is said in anger & despair.     This perhaps is not the best of examples,  but I merely wish to stress that in anger much is said,   and calculated Quinn,  if he planned murder would not have announced it,   risk hanging?
Quinn told no one of his ' identity change'  kept that a secret,  why & how  would he trust some drunken louts to keep quiet about such brutal murders ?   what was he going to do to protect himself from being outed by these people/person,  kill them all ? trust them?    wait for one or all of them to blackmail him?    These known hooligans were mischievous troublemakers,  not murderers,  how would Quinn get them to build up such a rage to commit such a crime,   if they had already been drinking during the day, what would they have been like hours after into the night ? how cautious & willing to listen to Quinn?      Why would these hooligans simply agree to do this for him?  it was not their argument for them to have such blinding rage towards these girls.

I stress that I believe it would have had to be extreme and blinding rage for this kind of massacre to happen,    Quinn had nothing to do with Michael's sisters,   I believe that being involved with the union business, he believed himself to be something of a staunch authority,  he dealt with men,      I do not believe someone of his type would have bothered with arguments or revenge on women,   women who at the time were by no means equal to men.

The girls were raped...    is this concluded because in the report it stated there was ' semen',   on what basis was this concluded? there were no tests done, the bodies were buried soon after.         Perhaps it was a case of it looks like rape so it must be semen, conclude the obvious.        What if they were not raped,  raped as they would have thought in those days,   what if the person, in rage,  used an object to hurt them,  to simply  destroy the part of the body which would be able to bare children?                 it stated somewhere that they had visible deep scratch mark patterns inside the labia & further,           if they were raped by these hooligans,  who have been drinking at that,           how is it possible 2/more people make the same/similar scratches,                     does this mean one of the drunkards raped both & made the same/similar marks?   The smashing of the girls skulls, to the point that they could barely be recognized,   this does not seem to align with Quinn's grudge and perhaps revenge seeking against Michael,       this would more appear as if someone did not wish these girls to leave this earth in youthful beauty, but disfigured and in some bizarre way violated and disgraced for the whole world to see.
I believe, Michael was made to watch this horrendous action taken against his sisters,  alive long enough to witness their pain for a reason.          After this,  Michael's family, too, were recluse, made to suffer and hurt
In the whole time that I have thought about this crime,   I wondered what on earth could make me do something that is totally unimaginable to me,   harm to my children would cause and perhaps make me capable of anything,   in those days,  I think that disgrace that was put upon that family was the start and the her death was the tipping point.          Strong families keep secrets, especially if they believe it is for a just cause.   Sorry for the long post,  just trying to get my point across and I hope that I have not offended anyone with my theory in the process


#336    Antilles

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:59 AM

I have read that at least one of the sisters had been damaged internally as a result of the gang rape. There were bruises and scratch marks on both sets of thighs, which is consistent with their legs being forcibly held open.

I think that you have to believe in Quinn as being the instigator to make that theory work and that scenario, for me, just doesn't work. There were gangs of thugs roaming and terrorising the area.

You get some guys with enough booze in them, just looking to cause trouble. Along comes this guy with 2 women in his buggy and bam.

The perps may well have been from the area. It's not inconceivable that their families protected them.


#337    Budding Colombo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:47 PM

After many years of studying the case I now have pretty good circumstantial evidence as to who DUNNIT and if my theory is right if a similar crime happened again today comitted by a similar person he may well get away with it again, with the same cover up happening as happened back then.
If my theory and the true motive regarding the tragedy is correct almost everybody involved with the mystery will be vindicated including the perpertrator, and the police for their so called bungling (they were compelled to bungle by those in power and the timing of the event in what is now Australia’s history regarding federation). If the perpertrator were brought to justice at the time, Federation may not have happened.
They knew who DUNNIT and the perpertrator knew he would not, indeed could not be touched.
When you learn the true motive you will understand.
If you are interested and want to learn more listen to a radio interview I gave some time back http://www.gattonmur...BCInterview.zip and visit http://www.gattonmurders.com/

I question wether rape even occurred, the main forensic guy at the time (Dr. Orr) wrote the following about the clothing of the trio he examined:
Was unsuccessful in satisfying myself as to the presence of semen in the first pieces removed from each on the 8th of January, 1899.
Then a month later he writes again:

An examination of the second pieces removed from each allowed me to discover the presence of  spermatoe which is proof positive of the presence of semen in the stains.

Exhibit “B” (Cotton Chemise) No. 5. one piece removed; presence of spermatozoa—semen in stains.

Exhibit “B” (Drawers) No. 6. two pieces removed spermatozoa—semen in stain.

Exhibit “C” No. 4. (Shirt) two pieces removed presenting stains (1) (N)) Haemin crystals : blood in stain of one. (B) Spermatozoa—semen in stain of the other.

Exhibit “C” No. 1. (Trousers) inside of left side of fly was a milky white stain. Examination showed presence of spermatozoa—semen in stain.

Scraping from inside of left leg of trousers where peculiar mark on trousers is to be seen. (No) Haemin.

Haemin crystals found—Blood in stain.
Guaiacum? (Once used to treat syphilis) H2 O2 (Hydrogen peroxide) gave affirmative reaction.
I examined these garments of Exhibit “C” at the command of Chief-Inspector Stuart as he wished to know whether semen could be found in the stains on No’s 4 and 1 of Exhibit “C”.
Planting of evidence was then and is not now uncommon as all concerned wanted it to look like lust was the motive.
I could go on but won’t.

Regards,
Steve

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#338    Thomas Day

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

This case remains open and the QPS should retain the clothing of the deceased.  If it was semen deposited on the clothing then if well preserved it could be matched to the perpetrator (exhumation required) or a descendant through mitochondrial DNA (maternal relative).  So this can be solved.  An anagram of 'circumstantial evidence' is 'can ruin a selected victim'.  Circumstantial evidence is for desperate prosecutors, lazy investigators and wannabe authors/sleuths.  If anyone wants to throw money at solving this, donate the cost of analysing the clothing of the deceased to the QPS cold case division.  Then find a descendant of whoever Thomas Day's mother/grandmother (etc) was, to compare it to.


#339    Budding Colombo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

View PostThomas Day, on 09 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

This case remains open and the QPS should retain the clothing of the deceased.  If it was semen deposited on the clothing then if well preserved it could be matched to the perpetrator (exhumation required) or a descendant through mitochondrial DNA (maternal relative).  So this can be solved.  An anagram of 'circumstantial evidence' is 'can ruin a selected victim'.  Circumstantial evidence is for desperate prosecutors, lazy investigators and wannabe authors/sleuths.  If anyone wants to throw money at solving this, donate the cost of analysing the clothing of the deceased to the QPS cold case division.  Then find a descendant of whoever Thomas Day's mother/grandmother (etc) was, to compare it to.
Hi there are you related to the man at the sliprails, if so I would love to talk to you.
A guy who lived in gatton studied this case for 20 years or more he apparantly saw the clothing held by the police in the 1990’s he went again and asked to inspect them again and was told they had disappeared.
Just another mystery regarding this case.
If anyone can help I am trying to gain information on one John Thomas Day who was born in Beaudesert in the correct year. It appears that many of his family were butchers.
I don’t believe he had anything to do with the tragedy but he may very well have seen something.
It appears from the report of Dr. Orr the forensic guy at the time 1 day there is no sign of semen on any of the clothing and a few weeks later there was plenty. (See Previous Post)
This indicates to me that it was put there later for a reason.
I feel the reason evidence was planted was to divert attention away from the perpertrator who would be above suspicion if lust was the motive.
I also believe the police and many others knew who it was but were powerless to proceed and forced to cover up by higher powers.
If I am correct it will explain why so many including the devout catholic family members kept their mouths shut. Maybe under threat of damnation or maybe from complicity or maybe even both.
The family had a few very embarassing skeletons in their closet which in this day and age would not be a problem but very stigmatic way back then and they didn’t need another one and they understood that what was done to their children had to be done.
I may be well off the mark but complicity is the only reason I can think of for staying quiet when 3 of your children and siblings ar done away with.

If you want further information go to http://www.safespray...rders/index.php
Regards,
Steve


Edited by Budding Colombo, 10 July 2013 - 09:08 PM.

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#340    ghosttours

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

Hi Can someone tell me why the www.gattonmurders.com web site has been suspended please...?

ghosttours


#341    Budding Colombo

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:42 AM

View Postghosttours, on 26 October 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Hi Can someone tell me why the www.gattonmurders.com web site has been suspended please...?

ghosttours

The website www.gattonmurders.com.au is operational again

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#342    jbelle

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 10:03 PM

I know I am rather late to the discussion but thought I would add my thoughts. I enjoyed reading the entire thread.

I don't buy the abortion theory.
If the girl did go to her brother for help, I highly doubt his roll would not go beyond simple transportation. I do not think he'd sit around for the procedure.

Women who preformed those services weren't murderous villains who would murder 2 other people to cover up for a botched job, it is far more likely that everyone would have come up with a story
to protect the girl's/family's reputation and then kept their mouths shut.

Abortion, even legal, safe, modern ones with zero complications cause quite a bit of bleeding, I can only imagine there would be a ton of blood if this was the case.

People have pointed out that more attention was given to Norah over Helen, that could simply be because the other girl was menstrating. Even psychopaths have turn offs.

The scratches on the legs aren't a mystery to me, their arms were restrained, they would have fought with their legs, thus they would be scratched. Not surprising.

The blood up in the tree does not surprise me, I would expect it if they were bashed in the skull with a blunt object. Where the blood was under the rug/blanket doesn't really mean much, the bodies were obviously moved/posed after death.

This killing wasn't "super human", there are tons of stories of men raping/murdering multiple women, sometimes without even a gun, whole families have been murdered. This is not even uncommon. Even with school/mass shootings, there are tons of people standing there and no one rushes the guy with the gun.

If "father" was yelled out, that doesn't surprise me, I am always heartbroken when a case has video of the murder and I read the person called for their father or mother, not uncommon and not just children, last I heard of was in her 20's begging her mother to save me. I can't imagine what the parent goes through hearing that, but it's common.

People like salcious gossip, I don't put much stock into the incest theories.

I also don't see why people assume it had to be personal at all. Strangers rape and kill in horrific ways all the time.

I don't think this is a one off kill, I think the person most likely murdered again, but he moved on and murdered somewhere else. Even today, we have truck drivers who murder for years and years without  being caught because the killings are never tied to each other until much later and the person didn't stick around.

I don't really find this much of a mystery at all, more like a bungled investigation by inexperienced people who let the guy get away. People have other theories but they really are stretching their imaginations and the facts to support these theories.


#343    Antilles

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 12:01 PM

Then I guess you need to decide if there was one perp or more. There's not enough evidence extant to definitively make that call. The guy at the sliprails, Thomas Day, would appear to me to have been involved. If one guy, then how did he get them off the road, through the sliprails then kill the horse and the brother before raping and murdering the girls? Easier with 2 but I don't think it's impossible for one guy to have committed the murders. The Gatton Mystery is a mystery because it was the only crime like that, in the area, at the time. It's not like Jack the Ripper where you have an obvious serial perp. Thomas Day disappeared shortly after the murders. Australians were enlisting for the Boer War which is what he supposedly did. Day was working as a butcher but the cops found a copy of Bulwer-Lytton's Rienzi in his effects when they searched. Not the usual sort of reading you'd expect a labourer to be reading.





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