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Zeitgeist debunked


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#1    conspiracy clothes

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:50 PM

Zeitgeist the new “truth” movie being promoted by its makers on conspiracy message boards around the internet has been thoroughly debunked. It is disgusting to think the makers would try to sell it as a “truth movie” considering that it has dozens (over 50) easily provable factual errors. This is a slap in the face to the people who have died and will continue to do so in this patriot movement, we would expect nothing less than 100% accuracy of any movie in the 911 truth realm. We are talking about specific false claims that have been debunked for years, yet because this is the first time its been put into a form of a movie It has new life. This is not about a defense of a religion, it is about the integrity of information and our right not to be lied to by people claiming to be “truthers”
Lets take a look at the references the makers of this movie list as their sources for this information on their website: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm

You will notice that they don’t site one single original source for the Jesus similarities they claim exist, you would think if it was true that the ancient texts showed such similarities, they would simply site these ancient texts. They don’t because they do not exist, Its quite simple, They instead offer books from authors such as Tim Leedom, Massey, Acharya, Doherty. This is laughable as a resource list if you have looked in to these claims. It’s the equivalent as me referencing Glenn Beck to prove there is no 911 conspiracy. I know its hard to believe that Tsarion or Alan Watt  have been quoting known disinfo in their dissemination of this idea, but look for yourself, The numerous claims made by this movie concerning Jesus’s many similarities are either true or false. Before I move on here are the links to various debunkings of the “Christ myth”

Here is a great look at the ridiculous claims of most of the authors on that list (how they get away with this stuff is beyond rational thought)
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
This is another that site handles the major deities and does so with tremendous references.
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html
I like the next site because no stone is left unturned in his search for more and more "Christ myths deities" to debunk, he has about 80 claims looked in to here:
http://kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html
Because this movie spent so much time claiming the similarities of hours and Jesus here is a specific debunking to show how clearly uninformed in mythology and how easily duped the makers of this film are in making this claim.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Now for Leedoms "Virishna" I wish there was more information to go on, but there is no such deity, at least in our earth's currently verifiable history. he apparently didn't bother with fact checking. Here is one account of the hunt for Virishna from an earlier source:
http://kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusVirishna.html

This movie also tries to make the claim that the Catholic churches pagan ideals, symbolism ,and rituals are somehow proof that Christianity itself is a part of this, nothing could be further from the truth. Lets take December 25th mentioned at least a dozen times in the film. The date of December 25th, which was officially proclaimed by the church fathers in A.D. 440, was actually a vestige of the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, observed near the winter solstice, which itself was among the many pagan traditions inherited from the earlier Babylonian priesthood. Any person that doesn’t drool on themselves will tell you that nowhere in the bible is this date mentioned or inferred in ANY way. It is ludicrous to say that and pagan rituals involving this date can be linked to Christianity before the catholic church got a hold of the idea, that is, ALMOST 500 YEARS LATER. This illustrates that the Vatican has very little to do with true Christianity except for the obvious problem that they themselves always claim that they ARE Christianity.
Ill put it this way:

I know, the catholic church very well may be terribly evil, It stands to reason that that is where evil would want to set up shop. but lets please stop using its pagan based rituals to prove anything about Christianities founder. Yes, the "church" does seem to be used as a control mechanism…TO CONTROL YOUR PERCEPTION OF CHRISTIANITY. It seems so obvious. Jesus was actually one of the most anti-religious people that ever walked the earth He had compassion for every low down person he came into contact with, except for the "clergy" of his day. They were the only people he ever spoke a harsh word to..maby a few money changers too. The guy in the new testament would be freaking furious with an organization that claims the kind of things the Vatican claims.


Now, on to one of my favorite subjects, the Zodiac, or the Mazzaroth. This movie’s half truths and outright lies about the zodiac are sickening. The unfortunate thing is that you have to know a good deal about science, history, mythology, astronomy, and physics in order to start to even understand what is at play with this system. It is not as simple as many are led to think And because of a lack of diligent study and an overabundance of half assed research, people swallow what they are told without questioning or learning anything further.
I warn you, if you REALLY want to know what the zodiac is, if you want to know why the illuminated groups venerate the “as above so below” maxim, it wont be easy, and you will have to go to “school”, the long and the short of it is that the system, and its use and history, have been perverted to show and do things are believed only because of what you are NOT told. it is a matter of withholding information as much or more that mis-information. The truth is stranger than the half truth.
I will put some links here for those who wish to look into this, I encourage everyone who cares to do so:
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/
http://server.firefighters.org/catalog/1998/00452.mp3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2018284938536095474
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1809393878728948984

You can argue with me about a lot of things here (and Im sure you will) but that this movie has a great deal of factual errors is not up for debate, as I said most of these claims were debunked 100 years ago. I am very worried about the future of this truth movement of which I am proudly a part of, I know that a division on dogmatic grounds is coming, and that all the great work we have done exposing and fighting this New World Order will be undone, by design. Be careful the ones proving the most stuff are often the ones to watch out for, they do this because they know that certain truths are coming out they know that they cant stop the awakening that’s coming. so they try to temper it by supplying us with the best real information through their agents and having them only lie about key elements, It is very insidious and very evil. We must be alert and challenge EVERYTHING even if you wanted to hear everything this movie had to say it does not make it true.

One more thing, As this movie suggest, I too believe we are at the end of an age. An astronomical age and a spiritual age, the precession of the equinoxes is a real thing,
They have tried to tell you that this impending change is a non-christian Idea, This IS the Idea! It is clearly described in the bible we will indeed change, as will this world, and why it must do so. but they are keeping you from seeing the origin of the warning! The bible has been 100% accurate in its writing history in advance, this is how has validated itself. Challenge this claim It is your duty, All the multidimensional beings around us know this too, they are not always to be trusted we do NOT know their motives.

P.S. I discuss what method the coming division might take here:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread289468/pg1



#2    Sunofone

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:49 AM

you know that was an extensive post and i am still unaware of the message or topic the movie is focusing on and specifically what it is you are contesting-- you will fall flat on your nose if your try to insinuate that christianity is NOT based on pagan rituals,symbolism and dates-- also the new testament is complete rubbish and not worth its weight in fertilizer

War is just a racket. I wouldnt go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket
Maj Gen S Butler
"the man that votes controls nothing-the man that counts the votes controls everything"
J Stalin
“The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
A Hitler

#3    conspiracy clothes

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 01:57 AM

Quote

you know that was an extensive post and i am still unaware of the message or topic the movie is focusing on and specifically what it is you are contesting-- you will fall flat on your nose if your try to insinuate that christianity is NOT based on pagan rituals,symbolism and dates-- also the new testament is complete rubbish and not worth its weight in fertilizer


bring it on big boy.
read my post. dont just look at it


#4    Sunofone

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 04:20 AM

Quote

bring it on big boy.
read my post. dont just look at it

you know it might do you some good to investigate the theories of jordan maxwell with an open mind-- astrotheology needs NO references other than common sense-- notice the pattern?? its called astro-theology and it does indeed predate all religion

Quote

Similarities Between Jesus and Horus

1. Both were conceived of a virgin.

2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)

3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.

4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.

5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.

6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).

7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.

8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).

9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.

10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).

11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.

12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".

13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.

14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."

15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.

16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.

17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.

18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.

19. Both were baptized at age 30.

20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.

22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.

23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.

24. Both have 12 disciples.

25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.

26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."

27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)

28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").

29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.

30. Both were crucified.

31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.

32. Both were buried in a tomb.

33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).

34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.

35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.

36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").

37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.

38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).

39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.

40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Bethlehem ("the house of bread").

41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)

42. Both were transfigured on the mount.

43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."

44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".

45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."

46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).

Quote

Similarities between Jesus and Krishna
Hindus believe that Krishna was the eighth "avatar" or incarnation of the god Vishnu - one of the Hindu deities in the Hindu trinity. Hindu scriptures state that Krishna "appeared in all the fullness of his power and glory." Krishna was born sometime between 900 and 1200 B.C. and his religious teachings can be found in the Bhagavad-Gita, one of the sacred texts in Hinduism. The karmic similarities between Jesus and the Hindu messiah named  Krishna (1200 B.C.) are many. There over one hundred similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors which could easily fill a volume. Some of these similarities are apocryphal which means their source comes from the extra-canonical scriptures of Hinduism.
Identical Life Experiences
(1)

Krishna was miraculously conceived and born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") as a divine incarnation.
(2) He was born at a time when his family had to travel to pay the yearly tax.
(3) His father was a carpenter yet Krishna was born of royal descent.
(4)

His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gifts.
(5)

He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants who feared that the divine child would supplant his kingdom.
(6)

His father was warned by a heavenly voice to flee the tyrant who sought the death of the child. The child was then saved by friends who fled with them in the night to a distant country. When the tyrant learned that his attempt to kill the child failed, he issued a decree that all the infants in the area be put to death. Writing about Krishna in the eighteenth century, Sir William Jones stated, "In the Sanskrit dictionary, compiled more than two thousand years ago, we have the whole history of the incarnate deity, born of a virgin, and miraculously escaping in infancy from the reigning tyrant of his country." (Asiatic Researches, Vol. I, p. 273).
(7)

The Bible states that Jesus and family fled to Egypt afterward to escape from King Herod. According to the Christian apocryphal text "the Gospel of the Infancy," the family traveled to Maturea, Egypt. Krishna was born in Maturea, India, hundreds of years earlier.
(8) He was baptized in the River Ganges.
(9) The missions of Krishna and Jesus were the same - the salvation of humanity.
(10)

Krishna worked miracles and wonders such as raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
(11) Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
(12)

Jesus taught his disciples about the possibility of removing a mountain by faith. According to tradition, Krishna raised Mount Goverdhen above his disciples to protect his worshipers from the wrath of Indra.
(13) "He lived poor and he loved the poor."
(14) Krishna washed the feet of the Brahmins and transfigured before his disciples.
(15)

Krishna's teachings and Jesus' teachings were very similar. The celebrated French missionary and traveler, Evarist-Regis Hucv, who made a journey of several thousand miles through China and Tibet, stated, "If we addressed a Mogul or Tibetan this question, 'Who is Krishna?' the reply was instantly 'The savior of men." According to Robert Cheyne, "All that converting the Hindoos to Christianity does for them is to change the object of their worship from Krishna to Christ." Appleton's Cyclopedia says this about the teachings of Krishna: "Its correspondence with the New Testament is indeed striking."
(16)

There is an extra-canonical Hindu tradition which states that Krishna was crucified. According to some traditions, Krishna died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
(17)

He descended to hell, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended to heaven which was witnessed by many.
(18)

Krishna is called the "shepherd god" and "lord of lords," and was considered "the redeemer, firstborn, sin bearer, liberator, universal Word."
(19)

He is the second person of the trinity, and proclaimed himself the "resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
(20)

He was considered the "beginning, the middle and the end," ("alpha and omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
(21) His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
(22)

Krishna is to return again riding a white horse to do battle with the "prince of evil," who will desolate the earth.


War is just a racket. I wouldnt go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket
Maj Gen S Butler
"the man that votes controls nothing-the man that counts the votes controls everything"
J Stalin
“The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
A Hitler

#5    Walty

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 06:08 AM

I just watched this movie the other day... errr 1/3 of it.  I watched the Federal Reserve part and it was top notch and dead on!  I then saw that there was a religious part which made me a bit skeptical and I havent checked it out yet.  If nothing else though, do check out the Federal Reserve and NWO section because its extremely solid.


#6    conspiracy clothes

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 02:14 PM

Sunofone,
Thanks for the copy and paste Job, you have proven my point. Which is that you have been told that these similiarites exist so many times you dont even check to see if they its true before you post it.  Those who actually looked at what I was saying will see that the points you have shared with us here are laughable to those who have read the texts for themselves. Its really very simple. The smartest atheist dont use this stuff because they know how unsubstantiated they are...they have read the accounts for themselves you should try it.  Read through the links I provided or read the texts themselves...take the real red pill.

PS. after reading over my posts I would like to add the caveat that Im not usually an a-hole, and I apologize, its just that I have heard "truthers" say this nonsense is  "fact" for too long....LOOK IT UP!

Edited by conspiracy clothes, 04 July 2007 - 03:02 PM.


#7    Sunofone

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 05:25 PM

Quote

....LOOK IT UP!

there is nothing to look up unless of course you mean up at the heavans as no athiest or skeptics alike can deny the tale of "sol invictus"-- you have been blinded by a faith in false doctorine and will never accept reality as it destroys your fairy tale of man that came back from the dead which i should point out at this point has no evidence to back it up-- the reality that america was attacked by corrupt entities that have infiltrated our govt holds more water than an imaginary tale of cannabalistic vampire that rose from the dead-- and yes anyone who wants you to drink blood and eat flesh symbolically or not can be classified as such-- i really find christians the most amusing of all brainwashed serfs even more so than islamists or kabalists as they have absolutely nothing keeping them afloat where as islam has "peace" and the kabalists have gematria

War is just a racket. I wouldnt go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket
Maj Gen S Butler
"the man that votes controls nothing-the man that counts the votes controls everything"
J Stalin
“The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
A Hitler

#8    jaylemurph

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 05:30 PM

Quote

you know that was an extensive post and i am still unaware of the message or topic the movie is focusing on and specifically what it is you are contesting-- you will fall flat on your nose if your try to insinuate that christianity is NOT based on pagan rituals,symbolism and dates-- also the new testament is complete rubbish and not worth its weight in fertilizer


Sun --

This is the second thread CC has started that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to anyone but CC.
I hope it's cathartic for him.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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Deeply venial

#9    The-Doctor

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 05:40 PM

I watched the entire movie, and I'll explain how I felt about each part:

For part one, the entire presentation cited no sources whatsoever, and did not use any type of proof to prove any claim. This was the case for the rest of the parts too. They just expected us to believe what they were saying. But it would be fair just to assume that they were lying, because they had no proof for any of their claims.

For part two, I could not really figure out what their argument was. They showed me that bombs were needed to carry out the attacks? Perhaps they were, and I think that they probably were used, but how does this prove that the government wants to take over the world??? I mean, yeah, Bush makes some pretty lowsy speeches there, but...that's just our president.

Part three, again, no evidence. And their logic was a bit difficult to follow. I'm not sure how carrying around ID cards would make us all mind controlled or whatever, even if we had implanted chips, I don't think they would really monitor us wherever we go. I mean, they don't even take into account all the laws they have about privacy and such. The people would neevr let this sort of thing happen. Yeah, people are greedy with banks, but they go a bit too far with their claims.


#10    Sunofone

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 06:02 PM

Quote

They showed me that bombs were needed to carry out the attacks? Perhaps they were, and I think that they probably were used, but how does this prove that the government wants to take over the world?
I'm not sure how carrying around ID cards would make us all mind controlled or whatever, even if we had implanted chips, I don't think they would really monitor us wherever we go.

ok these quotes were enough for me to determine your opinon is based on ignorance-- colin powell recently told us all the real reason for an id number--

Quote

Colin Powell Leaks Reason For Social Security Number
Walter J. Burien, Jr.
6-30-7

I was watching Fox News Sunday this morning, 06/17/01, being hosted in the first segment by Tony Snow. The lead off guest was Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State. Mr. Powell gave an excellent recitation relevant to foreign affair matters.

Mr. Powell during the entire interview was very confident, and spoke without hesitation throughout the entire interview excluding for a one second period, after one specific statement made by him as he was talking about the Russian peoples. When he realized the consequences of making this disclosure indirectly to the American public, he froze for a second, his eyes rolled back as he realized what he had said, and then he continued without further pause for the rest of the interview.

In my lifetime, I have never sent out to others a post relevant to a quote I heard while watching a news program. In this case, the significance of what was said in the flow of truth coming from Mr. Powell, is a statement that establishes the primary reality of intent per the politics and operative structure coming from government in this country. I had to immediately share what I had heard with others.

Mr. Powell was discussing Mr. Bush's trip to Europe, and was at a point in his recitation covering certain concerns regarding Russia, and Russia being requested to cooperate with the United States to track down lost Nuclear materials and scientists who were unaccounted for after the break up of Russia, that now may be in the hands of, or in the case of the missing scientists, working for adversaries of the USA.

The quote from Mr. Powell, per the Russian Scientists that every American "NEEDS" to hear immediately is as follows:

[Colin Powell] - "Finding the Russian scientists may be a problem being that Russia does not have a Social Security System, as here in America, that allows us to MONITOR, TRACK DOWN and CAPTURE an American citizen."

The significance of Mr. Powell's statement is profound, and...
link


War is just a racket. I wouldnt go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket
Maj Gen S Butler
"the man that votes controls nothing-the man that counts the votes controls everything"
J Stalin
“The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
A Hitler

#11    conspiracy clothes

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 06:21 PM

Quote

there is nothing to look up unless of course you mean up at the heavans as no athiest or skeptics alike can deny the tale of "sol invictus"-- you have been blinded by a faith in false doctorine and will never accept reality as it destroys your fairy tale of man that came back from the dead which i should point out at this point has no evidence to back it up-- the reality that america was attacked by corrupt entities that have infiltrated our govt holds more water than an imaginary tale of cannabalistic vampire that rose from the dead-- and yes anyone who wants you to drink blood and eat flesh symbolically or not can be classified as such-- i really find christians the most amusing of all brainwashed serfs even more so than islamists or kabalists as they have absolutely nothing keeping them afloat where as islam has "peace" and the kabalists have gematria


What part of my claim dont you understand? They didnt check their facts, they are guilty of terrible and lazy research at best, I am showing you that they are with their own reference list, I have always been ready to accept what the evidence shows, you have no idea what my notions of religion were and are so stop assuming.

lets take your Kirishna, ok? since you supplied us with a list of similarities.  I assume its ok for me to copy and paste too. I chose the following site as a reference because it lays it out in a list form much like the list you provided us:


Quote

It should be noted that a few of these claims originate with Louis Jacolliot (1837-1890), a Frenchman who lived in India.  His claims have not been supported with any external evidence.  If he is to be believed, we are taking only his word for it.  No actual Buddhists in India appear to have ever professed the beliefs Jacolliot claimed.  And even if, hypothetically, there were 19th century Buddhists who believe the things he claimed, it's likely their beliefs were influenced by Christianity, since there is no record of these beliefs pre-dating Christianity.

I've heard from a couple of followers of the Hindu religion (one named Manali, the other who will remain unnamed) who have provided much-appreciated feedback.

1. Born of a Virgin on December 25

Since, according to legend, Krishna had seven older siblings, it's unlikely his mother, Devaki, was a virgin (and there's no tradition saying she was).  According to krishna.avatara.org, Krishna was born on the "8th day of the dark half of the month of Sravana. This corresponds to July 19th 3228 BC."  Skeptic Acharya S makes the claim that Krishna was born of a virgin in the book "The Christ Conspiracy", but her footnotes for this merely say that "The orthodox legend of Krishna is that he was born of a married woman, Devaki; but like Maya, Buddha's mother, she was considered to have had a miraculous conception."  How does having a miraculous conception equate to her being a virgin?

Manali says "The reason this gets mentioned as a point of similarity, I guess, is not to point that mothers in both cases were a virgin. And its not said anywhere that Devaki the mother of Krishna was a virgin. I think the point of similarity is that like Jesus, Krishna was not Devaki's child, but son of god, whom she conceived miraculously."

I agree that their both being conceived miraculously is a point of similarity, but the Christ-myther claim of Krishna being "born of a virgin on December 25" is still not true on either point.

2. His human father was a carpenter

No, his human father (his only father, for that matter) was a man named Vasuveda.  I have found no sources suggesting that he was a carpenter.  I even did internet searches on the combination of "Vasuveda" and "Carpenter" in Google, Yahoo and Infoseek, and got no hits except for articles written about Krishna by people whose last names were 'Carpenter'.  In fact, he was most likely a dairy farmer.  In some versions of the Krishna story, his father is King Kansa (who is also not a carpenter), who is also Devaki's brother.  Some web sites state that Kansa is Devaki's cousin or uncle, but followers assure me Kansa is Devaki's brother.

3. Father was off paying taxes when Krishna was born

No, his father, Vasuveda, was in prison with his mother when Krishna was born.  Or in the versions in which King Kansa is Krishna's father, you wouldn't expect the king to be paying taxes.

4. Birth was signaled by a star in the East

I've found no mention of this in any Krishna story.

5. Birth was attended by angels and shepherds, was presented with spices

I found this site, written by a follower of Krishna, which gives the story of the birth of Krishna, and even makes some general comparisons between Krishna and Jesus (that they were both born of a woman, born in this world and were 'God-on-Earth'), yet it mentions nothing about angels, shepherds, or spices.  I haven't found such comparisons anywhere else, either.  Manali points out that Krishna was visited by cowherds after his birth, since his family was in the dairy business.

6. A ruling tyrant ordered the slaughtering of thousands of infants upon hearing of Krishna's birth

While there is a parallel here, it's not the one the critics claim.  According to Manali, "after Kansa failed to kill Krishna, and came to know that the baby has been born and is living somewhere, he called upon his army to search the entire city of Mathura and its suburbs, to find and kill all the infants born in the same period as Krishna. Thus he ended up killing several infants, and there are several stories of how miraculously Krishna as a baby escaped the killings."  So it was "several" infants, not thousands.  Also, the number of infants killed by Herod when he found out about Jesus couldn't have been much more than about twenty according to most scholars, so it wasn't "thousands" there, either.  So replace "thousands of" with "several" in the claim, and there is a parallel.  However, the earliest version of this story in the Krishna tradition probably dates from the 4th to 6th century A.D., well after the Jesus story had been in circulation.  Some date the Krishna story as early as 2nd century A.D., but even this is after the Gospel accounts were written.

7. Was anointed with oil on the head by a woman he healed

I can't find any such incident in any version of the Krishna story.

8. Was depicted as having his foot on the head of a snake

Again, this cannot be found in any version of the story.

9. Worked miracles: raised the dead, healed lepers, healed the deaf, healed the blind

He worked miracles, but I have yet to find any references to his raising the dead, or healing lepers, the deaf or the blind.  Acharya S has no footnotes for this claim, so apparently she can't find the references, either.

10. Taught in parables

One of the Hindu followers who responded says he knows the Krishna story very well, and he says that Krishna did not use parables.

11. Krishna lived poor and loved the poor

The two Hindu followers who responded to this page disagree slightly on this.  The first one said that "Krishna never lived as a poor person.  The Yadav Caste (of which Krishna was a member) are dairy farmers, and, since milk is an important commodity, they have always been quite wealthy by Indian standards".  The second responder, Manali, says that "Krishna did live poor during parts of his childhood, when he was under the care of foster parents.  When Kansa's reign ended and he was welcomed back into the royal family, he never lived poor again."

But when we say that Jesus "lived poor", we're talking about his entire life, childhood and adulthood, so this isn't a comparison.  Besides that, many people throughout history have lived poor and loved the poor, it's not hard to believe that Krishna and/or Jesus may have been among them.

12. Castigated the clergy and charged them with hypocrisy and ambition.

Again, not found in any version.

13. Was transfigured in front of his disciples

Again, not found in any version

14. Gave his disciples the ability to work miracles

Ditto.

15. Krishna's path was "strewn with branches"

Ditto.

16. Some traditions held that he was crucified between two thieves

Critics claim this, but never back it up.  The only method of demise that I can find is his being shot in the foot by a hunter's arrow, and then either died or disappeared.  If anyone out there can give me an example of a tradition in which he is crucified, please let me know.  Acharya S's footnote on this one makes claims about other mythological figures being crucified, but makes no mention of Krishna being crucified.

The forementioned Jacolliot does make the claim of Krishna being affixed to a tree with arrows after he was killed, but doesn't mention anything about two thieves, and since Krishna was already dead and no crucifix was involved, this was hardly a crucifixion.  And no one has ever been able to back up Jacolliot's claim, anyway, making it likely fraudulent.  And even if not fraudulent, this story postdates Christianity by over 1800 years and was thus certainly influenced by Christianity.

17. Was killed around 30 yrs old and the sun darkened at his death

According to tradition, Krishna was 125 when he died.  Only off by 95 years!  And there's nothing about the sun darkening at his death.

18. Rose from the dead and ascended to heaven

The closest parallel comes in some later versions in which Krishna's body turned into a log-like image which floated around the East coast of India, finally ending up in a temple in the town of Puri. But he neither rose from the dead or ascended to Heaven.

19. Was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet.

Only in post-Christian times.

20. Was called: Shepherd of God, Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin-Bearer, Liberator, and Universal Word

He was called the "Shepherd God", only because, unlike Jesus, he actually WAS a shepherd.  Jesus was a shepherd only metaphorically.  I cannot find any record of the other names.

21. Was deemed: Our Lord and Savior and Son of God, who came to earth to die for the salvation of man

He was never referred to by these titles.

22. Was the second person of a trinity

Sort of.  The first Hindu follower who responded to this site states, "That Krishna is an avtar of Vishnu would make him the second god of the Hindu threesome".  However, he also acknowledges that the form of the threesome has changed over the years, and besides that, "The Hindu threesome cannot be equated even remotely with the Christian trinity."  The Hindu trinity is three separate beings, not the three-in-one of the Christian trinity.

23. Was called: Jezeus/Jeseus by his disciples

The source for this appears to be the forementioned Jacolliot, and thus postdates Christianity.  Besides that, remember that Jesus' Hebrew name was Yeshua.  Jesus is only the English pronunciation.  So even if true, this one is essentially meaningless.

24. Krishna will return to judge the dead and will do battle with the "Prince of Evil." The Earth will be desolated.

This is another claim originating with Jacolliot and cannot be dated to earlier than the 19th century.  Nor is it backed up by any evidence besides Jacolliot's claim.

Manali pointed me to these two passages in the "Bhagvad Gita":

"whenever there is a fall of sustenance; when it goes down, the righteousness falls off, to kill, to destroy these horrible negative forces: to save and sustain the saints, I come in every age in human form."

"To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium."

Manali says that Krishna is born into a new body in order to return (reincarnation), so this does not compare to Jesus, who is said to be returning in the same body He had in the 1st century.

Links:
Hare Krishna Home Page
Encyclopedia Mythica: Krishna
Indian Mythology
Probert Encyclopedia: Hindu Mythology
Wikipedia: Krishna



My friend you also have a preconceived notion and a dogma that you wont let go of in the face of facts.







#12    Sunofone

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 06:45 PM

Quote

What part of my claim dont you understand? They didnt check their facts, they are guilty of terrible and lazy research at best, I am showing you that they are with their own reference list, I have always been ready to accept what the evidence shows, you have no idea what my notions of religion were and are so stop assuming.

lets take your Kirishna, ok? since you supplied us with a list of similarities.  I assume its ok for me to copy and paste too. I chose the following site as a reference because it lays it out in a list form much like the list you provided us:
My friend you also have a preconceived notion and a dogma that you wont let go of in the face of facts.

Quote

1. Born of a Virgin on December 25


im not sure how your gonna counter my post with a copy and past from a counter completely removed from the facts i presented-- nowhere in my thread is this claim(born on dec25) asserted so im going to have to assume the rest is just as ludicrous-- why not start with jesus? which is a much more familiar figure to the readers and a major part of your original post-- also dogma is defined as a belief or doctorine which is a catagory that the obsevations of the sun cannot be classified as

Edited by Sunofone, 04 July 2007 - 06:49 PM.

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#13    conspiracy clothes

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 06:54 PM

Quote

im not sure how your gonna counter my post with a copy and past from a counter completely removed from the facts i presented-- nowhere in my thread is this claim(born on dec25) asserted so im going to have to assume the rest is just as ludicrous-- why not start with jesus? which is a much more familiar figure to the readers and a major part of your original post--


Ok Ill give you that.... of course you wouldn't have used that argument... what about the other 23 points most of which you just told us were undeniably true? do you still stick by  that post?  or do you think you may have just assumed the stuff you posted was accurate because you heard Maxwell say it? you remind me of some fundamentalist I know.

Edited by conspiracy clothes, 04 July 2007 - 07:11 PM.


#14    karl 12

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 08:03 PM

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I just watched this movie the other day... errr 1/3 of it.  I watched the Federal Reserve part and it was top notch and dead on!  I then saw that there was a religious part which made me a bit skeptical and I havent checked it out yet.  If nothing else though, do check out the Federal Reserve and NWO section because its extremely solid.



Heres part three-its very interesting viewing!  
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...h&plindex=2

Edited by karl 12, 04 July 2007 - 08:06 PM.


#15    The-Doctor

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 11:51 PM

The religious part is exaggerated and twisted. Even my father who is a professor of ancient and biblical history noticed HUGE discrepancies between the true facts about the ancient myths/gods and the claims they made in the video. Also, their logic is not quite enough to prove anything. Yes, those other characters from myths and religions shared similarities with Jesus and the Sun myths, but not ALL that they stated were the same in the movie. Also, I think "The Sun of God" is going a bit too far and does not prove anything. Besides, even if there were similarities between some ancient religious beliefs and contemporary ones, this STILL is not enough to prove current religion false. Yes, many religions in the past taught the same morals as current religions, but that does not mean the story of Jesus is falsified.





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