Anyone know what this says in english?

DISEN BECHER ODER WILCKOMEN
VORERET DER ERBARE TOMAS
LINDER ZICHINE PARCHNER
VNDT LEINE WEBER IMNEVMARGT
DEN LOBLICHEN MEIS TERN
ALT VNDIVNG DISES MITELS
ZVEINEM GERDACH NIS



Thanks

THIS CUP OR WILCKOMEN
VORERET OF THE HEREDITARY AR OF TOMA
LINDER ZICHINE PARCHNER
VNDT LINE WEBER IMNEVMARGT
THE COMMENDABLE MEIS TERN
OLD VNDIVNG OF THIS MITELS
ZVEINEM GERDACH SNEEZE


I know a little bit of German, so I had to go on the online translators to try and decipher the rest of it, and even in it's translated text, it still doesn't make sense. I used several different online translators and came up with the same result each time.

Nr., kann ich nicht Deutsches sprechen.

IS that German ? Are you sure you havn't mispelt it ? words like "vndivng" look more scandanavian to me. Ditto "vndt" ?
"Disen"... perhaps "Diesen" ?
"Nis" ????? "Nicht" perhaps ?

check your spelling and get back to us.

It might also be usefull to know wether this is a modern language, or a medievel variant. Ditto regional variants.

Tell us the context of this passage: where did you find it ?

Meow Purr.

Meow Purr.

A little more info might help: what is it on, where is it from... Do you know anything about the people mentioned in it (Thomas Linder Zichine and Leine Weber)? It looks like (Southern) German, but written with someone who wasn't very literate. If it's very old, it might be some other West Germanic language (like Dutch). As far as I can tell, it's about something (like a cup, maybe?) given on the occasion of (maybe?) a marriage of the two people mentioned, wishing them love and health -- something along the lines of may they be healthy, happy and faithful as long as this cup is intact...

--Jaylemurph

middle age German:

This cup or welcome(drink) was offered by the honorable Tomas Lidner, renter of the inn and clothmaker (of) Neumarkt, to the masters ??? to further his remembrance.

The ??? is a word I don't understand.

See translation under Ancient mysteries...

...at least I got the language, period and location right, if the Neumarket is the one in Cologne. Which there's no reason but my vanity to think it is.

--Jaylemurph

Threads merged

Please don't start multiple copies of the same thread in different sections. Thanks.

There are several Neumarkts in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and northern Italy. Many towns of the former Holy Roman Empire of German nations changed their names when they received market privileges to something + "markt" (market). Neumarkt would be " new market".

Which is why I said "if the Neumarket is the one in Cologne". ;0)

--Jaylemurph

Hello,

Thanks for the info - I had tried a couple of the translation websites as well but they only translated a few of the words then I tried each word individually and got a few more words but figured it would be different if read all together than word for word. The words are spelled correctly, there is a dot between each word where the spaces are thats why I seperated the words as they are shown although they may be broken up different since I dont know if the dots in between each word mean something different.


I dont know to much about the history or origination but just based upon research, my own conclusions and other items that were with it.
The item is a very old chalice above the text is the date and what looks like may be the year 1631 but the number ones look more like a symbol (or a number 2 with a dot centered right above the 2). Since other items that came with it were also from the early 1600's I figured it must be from around the same time My guess is it may have been from somewhere in England and from a roman catholic church or those affilated with King James, Henry or Princess Mary of Orange. I do not know the names of the people or even if that were there names. I have come up with numerous different could be's but figured if I could get a more accurate translation It would narrow the possibilities.

What I found with the words originating from - Etruscan to some form Dutch German language and the translation of - Liene (Line) Zichine (Fire) Linder or Li n der (left n that) but could be completly incorrect on those.


Again thanks in advance, I would appreciate any information or opinions anyone one has to offer.

"I can curse and get myself a frankfurt with lots of mustard and sauce, but thats about it". lol
I know more aboriginal language that I know german. I would know more if my grandfather had taught my mother as a child.
I'd better get cracking...

Alfviederzien, unt danker for ziz wicked thread.
( I cant spell )

Bitter, can anyone tell me about an online learning german thingy????

From the language it must be older, at least hundred years previous, as the language spoken in the 1600 resembled more modern German than your inscription does. What would help is a picture, seeing it could lead somewhere.

Well... that depends on the literacy and educational level of the speaker, and where he was from. I mean, look at the writing you see around here: by some people's writing alone, you might assume they lived several centuries ago or were virtually illiterate, but that's not necessarily the case.

--Jaylemurph

After the protestant reformation literacy became pretty standard in Germany, in the protestant states because as Luther said, a person must be able to read the Bible by himself and in the Catholic states because the protestant states were growing wealthier than they... due to the literacy rate of its subjects.

The typical German of the 1600 would be that of Grimmelshausen's Simplicisimus, which any modern German speaker has absolutely no problem to understand.

Heres a pic of writing
Click to view attachment

What does the line with the 4 say (first line?)

It says
Den 4 Nofember and what looks to be 1631 if those are number ones

Heres a Pic of the other side

Click to view attachment

??? = altundjung = old and young

Ok, now we have a picture, this seems to be a communion chalice offered by Tomas Lidner to a protestant church, and the Neumarkt in question is probably located in the Oberpfalz region, where for some twist of fate the mayor right now is also a Lidner (Wilfried Lindner), and probably descendant of this Tomas.

What I don't really understand is that the lingo is way to old for the time in question but hey, maybe they thought it cool to use the lingo of their great great grandfathers.

Hope we could help you out.

Oh, I agree there was a high rate of literacy in 16th Century Germany, spurred as you say, by Luther. But there was a distinct drop in literate adult males in the area in the 1630s and for the next generation or two after.

--Jaylemurph

If you mean the 30 year war... I guess it threw Germany a few years back

I've read statistics (fairly reputable) that in most areas the death rate in Germany (especially the central and southern regions) hovered at 50% through direct war causalities and from famine from crop damage and that 1/3 of the women were sterile after the war.

--Jaylemurph

the death rate was slightly higher, but much more important is that there was a whole generation who knew nothing but killing, looting an raping. Sure was not easy to civilize them again, especially because all civil institution were destroyed.

Thanks for the info - it definately helps. And, since it appears that you (?) seem to have abit of knowledge about old history maybe I could trouble you with a couple more quetions. I have a feeling you just may have the answers.

Would you know when and where the Pelican in her Piety originated. Also I have a old plate (unrelated to the cup) that i've been triing to find info and had sent to the museum of england who was unable to give me any info on its history - here are some pics of the markings
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Check Bimini, but I really would have to speculate in this case. The reason why the cup was so easy for me is because it is vaguely related to one of my favorite fields: the 30 Year War.

The pelican is an old christian symbol: it was thought that mother pelicans fed their children with her own blood after she would stab herself in the chest with her beak. (She was, in reality, giving them bloody regurgitated food.)

--Jaylemurph

Thanks again for the help -- I did know what the meaning of the pelican was and do know its affiliated with a group called SCA but was looking to find what time frame (year) and what country it originated in. The Chalice also has the Pelican in her Piety engraved on it.

Rome, 2nd or 3rd Century AD, so well before the period you're looking at, but it was used throughout the Christian West.

--Jaylemurph

Well, I am German and didn't get it all - and the spelling seems to be partly incorrect, even for the time. I was wondering for a short while if it was possibly Dutch.

I guess it could have been that Tomas Lindner was a member of the SCA or something since the pelican in her piety was on the chalice as well. Heres a pic of the other side of the chalice
Click to view attachment

Es ist Deutsch, aber sehr altes Deutsch

Im ersten Moment erkennt man es nicht, aber wenn man genauer hinsieht ist, versteht man es. Die Rechtschreibung ist für die Zeit aus der er es stammt relativ üblich.

Heres a actual letter that was found in a book with the cup

I'm half-german and speak fluent german

This seems to be phony german or -someone that knows a little german

DISEN this BECHER cup ODER orWILCKOMEN welcome VORERET voerst firstly- DER the ERBARE ehrbare honorable TOMAS thomas LINDER l ZICHINE PARCHNER VNDT ?LEINE ?WEBER (popular german family name) IMNEVMARGT ? DEN the LOBLICHEN spelled wrong lovable MEIS meines mine TERN? ALT old VNDIVNG? DISES dieses this MITELS ...mittels means/method


funny translation huh ?? but correct == there are no german words without vowels-same as english

maybe it's ancient german

Thanks - I agree maybe ancient German - the number ones in the year look to be more like some type of symbol than a number 1 ??

Every word is spelled wrong except der,oder and becher.

Where did you find this ?

But it's in english ?

gedach-nis sounds like Gedaechtnis -memory

I think it's old German but it seems to have a dutch family name on it. Many Dutch emigrated to Germany and our region has a dutch dialect. My Opa's family emigrated from Amsterdam in the 1700's. So either it's old german or faulty german written by a Dutchman.

Weber can also be a dutch name -my dutch family name (my Opa's) was Webel ,my german friends name is Weber -it's quite common-so is Linder

Neither, Westphalian dialect consistent with the mid 1600s. We checked up on that before abandoning this thread a while ago. BTW those Vs are really Us, Vs were not used at the time in that region.

The text is inscribed on a chalice. It is 12" tall and weights approx 4 1/2 lbs. I had the metal tested and it turned out to be just about Solid Tin.
There is a photo of it on the first page of this post.

I had been researching the langage and it looks like as the Germanic language changed over the years which I found to be quite complex but where I found quite a few of the words was in Indo-European Germanic


A large class of verbs that use a dental suffix (/d/ or /t/) instead of vowel alternation (Indo-European ablaut) to indicate past tense; these are called the Germanic weak verbs; the remaining verbs with vowel ablaut are the Germanic strong verbs

Here's what a friend of mine from Germany had to say about the text you sent me:

it indeed seems to be some sort of old German. But very old, not just 200 years. Or it's just in different letters.
what kind of cup is this? I'm curious.
anyway, here's what it could mean, the 3rd and 4th line are the hardest to decipher, they're most likely the description of the occupation of the "honorable Tomas".
cheers
jan


This Cup or welcome
bequeathes the honorable Tomas
???
and linen weaver maidservant?
to the worthy masters
?? with these means
to a / your memory