OK, so I recently was looking at some OT (Old Testament) stuff, and it occurred to me (like this is really original ), that every time a good thing, or a bad thing happens, God gets the credit. Now, sometimes a "King" would do what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and die after a few years. Other times, they would live a loooong time. Same for guys that did what was right and good in the sight of the Lord! But regardless, God got the credit. Seems odd, don't it? Israel is sacked by Assyria (or whoever) and it's said that God let it happen, or even MADE it happen because the people were worshiping other "gods" or even "hosts of heaven" which I imagine are angels.

Let's face it folks. Even reading the OT as a historical document, assuming all these people lived and these things happened...God gets credit for good and bad, all the time. There is NO room left for Free-Will, since God gets all the credit.

Look how many Kings were evil in Chronicles, and how everyone of them were allowed to be bad, and how they corrupted the people (as kings so often do) and how God sent foreigners to invade and murder and pillage. Then see how the Israel tribes do it back to their enemy's, and how it MUST be God doing it. It just isn't sensible.

So...what I feel is going on, is Israel is finding it's way in a violent place, much like feudal Europe was at one time, and when things go well, and society is behaving in a civilized (moral) manner, it is attributed to God. Same as when society is unorganized, lawless, and not of one mind (religion), and the crap hits the fan and they are conquered. It gets attributed to God.

As a unifying force, God is the ultimate player. Religion puts everyone on the same page, of a like mind. The rules and rituals actually protect people from disease, from thieves, all manner of social ills that can destroy a small isolated city-state, which is what most of Israel consisted of at this time.

The murder, rape, slavery, all manner of bad-ness, was mans doing. It was simply attributed to God, as a unifying force to shore up a back-sliding society. When in all reality, maybe it was FREE WILL. The people of the time were meant to find their OWN way, and maybe God interfered a lot LESS than the OT implies.

Summarized: Man did it, gave the credit to God to instill a sense of unity and formulate a like-minded society for the betterment of said society. Free-will, a rallying cry for many Christians, is to blame. Not God, but humanity.

Does this make me a heretic?

well all i will say is this

1.belonging to a religion gives up your free will .
2.religion is a scape goat for all humanities mistakes if a good deed is done credit goes to god and his followers if a bad deed is done blame it on the so called devil dont blame humans its not our fault when really it is

Some good observations, but the funny thing is, the Assyrians attacked right after King Hezikiah stopped the people from worshipping the fiery flying serpent idol Yahweh ordered Moses to make and the people to worship. So even though 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel vanished, Hezakiah is made a hero. The fact seem to say otherwise. If Yahweh is real, it would seem he was so enraged that Hezakiah destroyed his idol, that he allowed the Assyrians to steal away 10 of the 12 tribes, not to mention paying of the the assyrians with the temple treasury.

Perhaps, the concept of god, in any culture, is an attempt by man to create unity and obedience.

As children ( or observing them), how often have you heard one child, in an attempt to get the others to obey them pulls out the dreaded "I'm telling Mommy ( or Daddy) card?

How often have you said ( or overheard another harried parent say) "See that Policeman? If you don't behave, he'll take you to jail" ?

We go through live obeying the rules because of fear of retribution of authority figures. Parents, teachers law enforcers, governments, etc. Why then is it such a stretch for people to accept that the OT is just an attempt to make the people follow the rules?

If you look at the ten commandments and strip away the supernatural deity dressing, you will find that they are very reasonable codes of conduct for a society.. BUT, for a chieftain to get the people to follow them, without himself appearing as a tyrant, he has to appeal to a higher power.

"Obey these laws my people! Else GOD will strike you down......." And, when things go well, it is because the people obeyed gods laws as well.

Just my 2 cents. Not trying to sway anyones beliefs.

Agreed, good points.
Really my intent was not to try to change any minds, just look at it from a non-paranormal/religious perspective. It doesn't necessarily remove God from the equation, just points out that the OT seems like a simplified version of what MIGHT have really been going on.

I really like the part of your post that I bolded, it's a great thought! The BUT is right on too, especially in a democratic society. I've often said that ideally religion is not a bad thing, but then again, Communism is awesome too, IDEALLY.

I don't think it's entirely true that EVERYTHING is attributed to God. Judges 21, for example, shows the Benjamites (one of the 12 Tribes of Israel) kidnapping "the women of Shiloh" to make them wives to bear children to continue the Tribe's genes (apparently there weren't enough women in the tribe, which is why they kidnapped and raped the women). God never makes an appearance in this story. It is a decision made by the Israelites alone, and there is no indication of either approving or condemning this act.

The book of Esther never uses the word God (or Lord or any other name that we use to refer to Yahweh).

However, I agree with the sentiment that God is in control of everything, and it is perhaps a better way of thinking of this than the opening post ("getting the credit" so to speak).

Then again, I don't believe in free will

~ Regards, PA

Nice point Eqg..I just posted something similar to this on another thread-

The whole debate over Free Will/Lack of Free Will is really what causes a lot of the other debates people get into. I myself believe in a limited mutual will. I don't think man chooses all of his own, and I don't think God acts all of his own. Theirs a mutual limitation in that one party confers with the other in order to make a decision. While I am not Jewish, Rabbi Tovia Singer has a podcast about how a lot of times the scriptures of the Tanakh are misunderstood and he explains a lot of the stuff in their. While I normally don't post up Anti-Christian/Pro-Jewish material I think what he has to say is very useful information on the matter. Outreach Judaism

Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?


It would be good for people who constantly call God names like "baby-killer".

You know Moses killed a man and hid the body in the name of God...He is now one of the most revered leaders in history.

God in the old testament is a psychopath...Look at the story of Noah's Ark he committed genocide simply because he didn't like the way things were going. God killed all the first born babies in Egypt, and it goes on and on and on.

God and his supposed followers in the old testament killed relentlessly and while many do not wish to accept it, it is what it is a book full of death after death.

Ganja, you are TOTALLY missing the point. Did you read the OP, or did you just jump in to bash? Think about what the OP is saying, and climb off the soap-box for a minute. If you're just here to troll for "believers" in hopes of a flame or two, forget it.

Yeah, I over generalized for simplicities sake. The point was really, just because man says "God's will", what makes it so? Says who? Maybe man just says it to comfort himself, and that was the case in the OT to at least some degree. Maybe God was involved in some places, and not in others. Again, it all winds up back to another point. Who are we, or anyone for that matter, to guess Gods plan, or attribute an action to God?

If there is no free-will, are you really saying our fates are determined and we can't change our destiny?

You know, I was discussing that exact point at church today, gumby. If a Christian gets fired from a job or doesn't get a promotion or if a close family member dies unexpectedly (say a child, for example), then can one really turn around and say "God has a plan for this". People overuse the idea that not getting a particular job is just God's way of saying that this is not what he had planned for us. How can we make the assertion that God planned anything for us.

The Old Testament is different. Today, we live in a world where God is not actively involved with bringing about his grand plan of salvation (see my thread in the Spirituality, Religion and beliefs board for more details if you wish). Back then, God did actively involve himself with the Israelites. As such, it is not a complete jump to consider that a lot of the Old Testament is done because God wanted to achieve a certain goal. Not just "good" people either. Many of the Old Testament characters were far from pious but God used their evil actions to bring about his plan.

This then of course turns to the argument of whether you believe what the Bible actually says, which is really the point of your thread. If you believe that God inspired the Bible, then everything attributed to God is what God wanted. If you believe that it is not inspired by God, then your question has deep significance. I for one believe the Bible was inspired by God, indeed written by God, through a human medium.

As for your comment on free will, that wouldn't be too far from what the Bible actually says. The Bible is clear that people were and are predestined for certain fates. Whether this is as strict as "every single action" planned out since creation, or whether only the destination has been certain, it is not so clear. Nor am I adverse to the suggestion that perhaps in God's non-physical, non-linear universe the concepts of free will and predestination can co-exist in harmony. But they don't gel so well in our physical reality, and the evidence seems to point more towards predestination than free will.

As a side note, if you had asked this same question in the 18th century, everyone would have agreed with you. There was no concept of free will until certain free-thinking Scotsmen decided to question the status quo. People back then were quite happy and content with the idea of predestination.

~ Regards, PA

IMO from what I've read, you are the only christian that don't believe in God giving us free will, how come?

^I don't know if it's just an Australian vs American thing, but in Sydney at least, no preacher (that I've seen) would dare have the gall to use the words "free will" in a sentence together, or else they'd be flayed alive afterwards by inquisitive Christians. I remember going to a Christian convention a few years back, firmly believing in Free Will, and after the sermon asked the preacher (Archie Poulos was his name, probably not well known outside of Australia, but well known within) about how his talk fit in with the Free Will debate. He said that the Bible never mentions free will.

That was the first time I came across an idea opposed to free will. However, it was another two or three years before I decided to take that to heart and research for myself (in other words, read the Bible), and at the end of that, I was forced to change my belief on the matter. Since then, I've asked at least three different preachers after sermons what their thoughts on free will were. I armed myself with passages that proved predestination, but was always disappointed that I could start an argument, because they always told me that Free Will just isn't biblical.

Hmm I see, so it could well be the teachings of God from different preachers that will determine wheather or not we have free will

I just believe that free will is something your heart desires lol but i wont get into it as its not in the topic lol sorry about that

^For Christians, I think the deciding factor should be what the Bible actually says. However, the quality of teaching provided by a preacher can influence how a person reads the Bible. I know I'm biased, but I personally believe I am blessed to live in Sydney where the Bible teaching is so thorough. Everyone I know who has come to a church in Sydney from outside of the area has commented how good the preaching is here (a Testament to the study completed at Moore College (link), the main Theological Institute in Sydney)

I don't think it coincidence either that Sydney is one of the few areas in the world where Church attendance is actually on the increase (while most areas are actually declining). I know this may sound a little prideful, and perhaps it is a little....... but Sydney seems to be a very good place to be if one wishes to learn about Christianity.

At least you are proud of where you come from

EDIT - considering that Austraila was the main place for many criminals...and how many are desendants of these criminals (plz note i said many, not meaning all)


Thats all that matters PA...and so what if you are baised in that respect, it makes sense

Did I say anything here about the folks who believe the bible is real? I was talking about the book itself which is in fact full of murder and genocide etc.

I never once said anything about anyone here on these boards. All this at the same time you are flame baiting me by making false accusations. All I was doing was stating my opinion of the book based on observation. Does it not say in the bible "He who has not sinned, cast the first stone".

Ah, but while I believe that God insprired the bible through human mediums, I don't believe it was the last time he did that. I think he still does this today, my entire faith is based on that concept. This is why I do not concern myself too much with Bible inerrancy, God continues to communicate his Word, through man, and that makes the Bible incomplete. I think the Bible has its uses to see how others experienced God's Word 2000 years ago, but that just makes it a tool not a rule.

You called God a psychopath...that's not asking for angry replies?
What false accusations?
Did you read the original post? Because your very first response has NOTHING to do with the topic. YOU turned this into a "THE BIBLE IS EVIL" thread, no one else.
Notice everyone else, like PA and BM making thought provoking comments? MissMel dropped by because she was intrigued. Then you drop a "God is a psychopath" bomb and run.

The point is, MAYBE God is given credit where it's NOT due. I was exploring THAT idea. Therefore your ORIGINAL reply here, your FIRST post on this thread, has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand.

As seen in the OT, any wonder people will see God as a mad psychopath...its an opinion...every bit entitled to it

No it's not, it is my opinion of how god appears to be in the bible or more specifically the old testament

These ones "If you're just here to troll for "believers" in hopes of a flame or two, forget it.". Despite the fact that I had no intention of flame baiting and was merely voicing my opinion which I am entitled to.


The thread title is "Old Testament is FULL of Death" I simply re-enforced this with factual information from the bible. I never once said the bible was evil just that it contained many evil act either committed by god or his followers in his name.


God committed genocide and made people suffer in the old testament just because... That sounds like psychopathic behavior to me.



God gets all the credit in regards to genocide more specifically in the story of Noah's Ark in which he killed everything except Noah and the inhabitants of his boat.

I was stating facts that you disagree with and that's whatever but don't try to make me look like the bad guy here just because i said a book is full of violence and a psychopathic and clearly homicidal god in the old testament.

Well Ive read over your posts and I believe you are correct....after all the title of this thread is called - The OT is full of Death

Gee sis, i sure agree with you the OT is very bloody( it certainly speaks for itself) and the diety only seems to be satisfied with killing as to sooth its jealous tantrums ... IMO....

from the garden to lot to moses to abraham etc etc 'god ' is busy seeking vengence....

That's what the bible tells us YES it has more horror stories than a Stephen King novel LOL ...and with all the carnage and blood shed in the OT< you'd nearly think that Quentin Tarantino added his own flare to it - re-name it - Reservoir Dogs Gods & Kill Biblical Bill LOL - Pulpit Fiction

good point sis...

If God came to this earth as a real life human being, id say Hollywood would snatch him up to take on movie rolls like....

TERMINATOR lV LOL..Natural Born Killers 2.........War Of The Worlds 2 ......Telling him he is a natural LOL

You didn't say he appeared to be, or acted like, or you felt he was. You said he was, period.

Now I agree that if you believe that GOD did all the things attributed to him in the OT, he certainly appears to be what we as humans would call another human "psychopathic".

My real problem is that you didn't address the original post at all. Notice how I agree that the OT is full of death? Notice how I also agree that God is given the credit for all that death and murder?

Now take a step back, and read the post.



That part, where I quote myself, is what the thread is about. None of your posts are about the topic.

What you have just done is split hairs, and God didnt appear to do anything...fact of the stories of the bible is quite simple HE DID KILL and that is seen as a killer

What do a lot of people call killers? psychopaths!!

I dont think it matters what he has classed the bible God as...it only a matter of words to chose how to describe a killer...I dont see the harm in it

Right BM, but that's a given here. We know it is. What this is really about is free-will, humanities role in the OT, how or even if God acted in the OT. Let's say God didn't do HALF the things he gets the credit for. Lets say he DIDN'T harden the Pharaohs heart as is implied, but rather that Pharaoh was just a stubborn SOB! How does that change our perceptions of the OT? After all, free-will is often discussed in Christianity. Seems like everyone wants to discuss how evil God is, whether they believe in God or not.



OK, whatever, but that's STILL not what the post is ABOUT.

You have to remember, that when people read a title of a thread, they will react to it...without digging into what the post says

You make a thread and call it - The OT is full of death <---you are bound to get replies from people that hate the fact that God has indeed killed many innocent people and blood shed ect...its obvious that people will jump to do it

Did it ever occur to you that part of the reason as to WHY many dont wanna follow God, is due to what the bible has said about him?

I for one dont wish to follow a God that has killed so many innocent people..........thats part of my reasons for not following the bible

Lets say you made a thread and called it - The many miracles of the NT and the point of your post was to talk about how peoples faith in Jesus is stronger due to Jesus and his miricals

Some may just go on and on talking about miracles and not about faith in Jesus....its bound to happen

Its a catch 22 eggy

Why get at someone for saying God is a psychopath, they are just calling it how they see it

If i made a Satanic thread and called it - The followers of the Satanic church...and my post was talking about their rules and certain things they do that not many think about....I'LL GUARNTEE you that a few religious would blast the living crap out of it..and then some

god ordered most of the killings or jsut did it himself the flood, sodom and gommorrah ordered all first born sons to be killed etc etc..., i have often felt that when folks say they get their morals from the bible they probablly aren't cuz if they were this is the model or standard of behavior and few dispute that god is a serial killer either indirectly or on orders and many willagree killing is not the answer....yet this diety seems to feel it is ..its in the bible ...

Who says they were innocent? Can not only God judge the heart therefore making him the only and final opinion on whether or not someone is innocent? Yes, I know God killed many babies, and IMO it was deserved. You can't call God God and then say he doesn't have the power and knowledge to judge whether or not someone is "innocent". It's putting God into a box in which he dances like a monkey to suit what your idea of God is. But then again, who am I to judge?

IMO, you have the potential to be a very dangerous individual.

But then, who am I to judge?

Lol, I am already dangerous in many ways, as is I am insane. However, I would feel like a severe hypocrite if I felt I was able to cast judgment on the Supreme Being I call God and tell him how to do his job. God is God, and if I truly believe that, then every action he takes is a justified action as is he is God. I wouldn't be able to say I followed God and considered him Supreme if I though myself high enough to judge him and say that he is immoral. I am a creation, and I wouldn't dare tell the created who is innocent and who isn't. It's like telling him he doesn't know what he's doing, and if I thought that then he wouldn't be God. I trust God, and if he does something, then it was the appropriate action for that situation.

Babies are not innocent to you now?? wind your neck in LOL..and as for judging COI you seem to do a lot of it yourself

You have indeed placed judgement on what God would do to people ect in the after life....and further more COI, you don't seem to pay full attention to my posts

I don't believe in bible stories, therefore I dont believe in killing INNOCENT babies....now if you were following exactly what was written, you would NOTICE i was commenting on someone ELSES post

As for me saying I dont follow a God that kills the INOCENT...no I wouldnt follow anyone that did that

And what makes babies so guilty?? what have lil babies got to be guilty of??

Next time you wanna throw remarks about that, think 1st before you post