Hello y'all, this thread is really more of a question to believers but I would love non-believers' points of view as well. I have been wondering about what it means to be "saved" and what it means to go to heaven a lot lately. And I thought to myself "There are too many loose ends." For instance, good people who don't hear of Christ, why would they go to hell? So I pondered and mulled it over. I looked into what the Jews say, and according to them there is no hell. That sounds like a nice thought, but I wondered to myself "Suppose there wrong and there is one? Then what?" So I looked to the NT. I read Galatians and I guess you could say I now have a new theory as to how this whole thing would happen to be. For starters, in this plan, a formal acknowledgment of Christ is not necessary because Christ died for all, to save all, regardless of all, and therefore (IMO) all are saved from sin and it's penalties. However, not all are "going to heaven" because you can't just do what you like and go to heaven. So I was reading in Galatians and read



I read this and took it to mean that if a person should serve their fellow man in love, and Love their neighbor as theirself that they should be able to make it. If they lose their sinful nature (sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like Source) and were to put on the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control Source) then they will be saved Source My point is that I think it is possible for a person to be saved without a formal acknowledgment of Christ, and that it is possible for one to "belong to Christ" (Galatians 5:24-26) without actually knowing of or hearing of Christ.


Thoughts?

I don't believe in hell fire. I believe that the hell that is often talked about is when a person's spirit, after death, is not with God, but in a spiritual dead state-- away from the presence of the Lord.
Here is where I, personally, try to get across the importance of God and the relationship to the person- To become more spiritually aware, more connected with God- This builds the bond which in turn will benefit us later on. imo

Look into Universalism

www.tentmaker.org

[quote name='Child-Of-Israel' date='Jul 15 2007, 06:21 AM' post='1775014']
. So I was reading in Galatians and read
I read this and took it to mean that if a person should serve their fellow man in love, and Love their neighbor as theirself that they should be able to make it. If they lose their sinful nature (sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like [url="




That sounds like a tough regime to follow. I think you would have to be a zombie to keep all those rules


fullywired

In Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost he declared that there is none ascended into heaven except Christ. David's grave is still with us and that he is still awaiting the resurrection. So IMO hell does not exist. So many of the scriptures in English are horribly translated and the meaning is usually "grave". The western view of salvation is simply boile down to is a peron going to heaven or not. But I see salvation as being a spiritual restoration that is a present tense scenario rather tha a futuristic one. The Pauline epistles are littered with scripture that declares that Christ reconcilled men unto God through the Christ. The spiritual rift has been mended by the second Adam as it were. So the concept is that salvation is not a fire escape from some place called hell, but rather a wholenes of body, soul and spirit.

I see salvation as an invitation to live in a Kingdom created by the creator of all things a place with no pain or tears, a place like Eden to dwell within the presence and companionship of God. The invitation is open to all that ask and is provided through Christ. One must accept the invitation or reject it. We have been given a lifetime of an unknown duration, perhaps up to 80 or 90 years in some cases.
All life is a gift of God we have chosen to accept a finite version of it or you would not still be with us. Live it to the fullest, laugh, play and make friends and leave a lasting legacy of your life toward the pursuit of goodness, not for any eventual rewards but because it is the right thing to do.
I believe If you like the gift of life you have an opportunity to keep it, seek out matters of spirituality, don’t ever stop if you are uncertain of the conclusions you arrive at because that uncertainty is a red flag that you have not found the truth. Seek and you shall find it, knock and the door will be opened.
Remember you are under no obligation to do so if you choose to not pursue a renewal of life. This mortal life may be plenty enough living for some and eternity may not be enough for others.

I personally along with a lot of other Christian do not believe that hell was made for mankind. It was made for Satan and his fallen angels. We either return to whence we came from the dust of the earth (eternal sleep) or we have an existence outside of the realm of the creator much like the earth in which we now abide. And probably run by a bunch of rich self righteous clergy that make their own rules as they see fit.

Never the less an invitation has to be accepted in order to be received.

Irish

Very very true. Hell (as in fire and brimstone) is NEVER mentioned in the OT. It's either Sheol (the grave) or Gehenna (which is a place outside Jerusalem?)


I myself believe in the Jewish teachings about Satan in that he is an agent of God.

Nice post, COI.
I think it is right for selfish ambitions for an afterlife of eternal bliss, to take a back seat to working towards universal peace and happiness.

I'm tellin' ya, god must be really sick, considering he'd have to be the one who gave us those desires

Darn Straight lol

He gave us the desires, but he wants us to have control over ourselves. If a person can't help but to get drunk and jump into orgies than that person has a problem. The desires are there, but there must also be control and balance. Otherwise the person is just a drunken fallandering fool with a complete and utter lack of control.

This is exactly how I believe (and I'm a Roman Catholic--won't the Pope be mad?). I came to this understanding after experiencing the release of the Holy Spirit (what Protestants call "born again) through the Catholic Charismatic Movement. The knowledge I received at that time, and the wisdom I gained by reading the Bible, research and education (I took several courses at a local college), led me to understand God in a new way.

I think as long was we live "the Way, the Truth and the Life" we will be saved, whether or not we have heard the name of Christ. Christ is the Word of God--and God speaks in many languages and is for all people.

That's interesting, what happened to Enoch?

Although I agree that Christ died for all, since the Bible says that, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8), it also says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12). The overall message of the Bible is that Jesus died for all of us, BUT we need to receive Him, therefore, I do not believe all are saved, I believe all can be and all have the opportunity to be saved, but God is not going to force His presence on anyone. Why would you want to be forced to spend eternity with a being who's love you were not interested in for a shorter amount of time (what we call life)


Not willing to be responsible for your actions, KBA?

Here is my own opinion on Salvation

I feel the best way to recieve salvation, is to earn it..like the rest of the religion feel they have to....

Think of a job promotion....it wouldnt feel right if it was just handed to you as a gift, you would feel (if you are honest)..that you didnt really earn it...............BUT if you recieved it, and KNEW you truly earned it, then you would feel much better about it and can hold your head up high
Thats how I look at it...............its my OWN belief how I feel about it...and I dont care who says what LOL each to their own

BTW i saw a few of you in the other thread reading my exact same post LOL so I thought Id come in here and share it were it belongs....VOLA!!!

How would one earn Salvation BM?

Just live life in a kind way be nice to one another, help your friends and family, be there when people need it. If you want salvation just live a good life

Why dont you try looking up other faiths and see how they earn it IAMS

Cuz lets face it, i dont care for it lol I already feel I have earned enough through God EASY!! I was giving my thoughts on it, cuz Irish said that other religion feel they have to earn it...hey so why not check it out and see

I believe I said that IMO Salvation isn't what gets you to heaven.

Although I agree that Christ died for all, since the Bible says that, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8), it also says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12). The overall message of the Bible is that Jesus died for all of us, BUT we need to receive Him, therefore, I do not believe all are saved, I believe all can be and all have the opportunity to be saved, but God is not going to force His presence on anyone. Why would you want to be forced to spend eternity with a being who's love you were not interested in for a shorter amount of time (what we call life)

i think this is on child to decide what it means to him son....and it seems he has a diffenrt awareness of salvation ....

I wasn't talking about heaven I was talking about Salvation.

Then why say

?

Did you not mean that God would be forcing his presence in terms of Salvation? Were you not referencing eternity when you said that God wouldn't force his presence on someone? I believe that Christ died for all and relieved all from the power of sin in their lives. That means that we now have a choice where before there wasn't a choice. Heaven, has nothing to do with Salvation because all are saved, but not everyone is going to heaven.

So if I accept christian salvation as truth, I get punished in hundreds of other religions. Yeah, that's a great reason to keep on believing when religion only beats fear into people so that they'll believe.

I can accept christ, sure... But what's the big deal about christ? Some jewish guy running around yelling things that finally got caught by the proper authorities and dealth with according. Go justice!

So how can any of you promise me salvation if I just accept christianity? I don't want to go to hell that you believe in... So please... Save my soul and show me something that makes your religion right so I can accept it and not go to hell...

Obviously, he can decide what it means to him, Sheri, but I also think it's important to understand what the Bible actually says since that is where the idea of Salvation comes from.

But what does the Bible actually say? IMO, Paul and Jesus taught different methods to Salvation



Are you serious about that?

you cheeky lil git lol ha ha

The promise is already been made. All you have to do is accept-

If COI has his own lil theory of salvation...i say - fair play to him...its his theory!! BAH!!

I was referring to eternal life, not "heaven"

Where does this belief come from?

It dont feel right to accept something you may not have truly earned!!!!...just my thoughts though

I am. I am more then willing to believe in christianity if someone can prove to me the promises of christ. Though that goes for really any religion. I mean if I go with one religion, I'm only going against hundreds others so I'm still getting burned.



Where's this promise then? I mean, if I'm going to step into christianity again... I want something to prove it's real.

What would constitute proof?

You want me to prove something that is internal, that is spirit?
I know what's ahead at my death. See, I embrace death. I don't fear it at all. I've faced it already. It's not about getting burned by one religion or two, or whatever.. what's important is you and your creator.. the spiritual relationship between the two of you.. no one else is included. Here is why no one can tell you if you believe right or wrong.. because this is private b/t you and God. The only way to know if it's real is to open the door allowing Christ into your life & your heart. I can't show you my salvation. I can only tell you what's there once you open the door to that salvation. Then it's yours as well as mine.

There is eternal life other than heaven? My "all are saved" belief comes from the fact that I believe that Jesus Christ came and died for all men to free them from their sins. All men, are free from their sinful nature because it was crucified with Christ. Sin no longer has power over us unless we give it power. Otherwise we are free to decide and act without sin impeding that. Christ also relieved the burden of sin on a person's heart meaning that where before we couldn't have a relationship with God, now we can. Before, sin infected the heart and the nature of a man's soul. Sin was a wedge that got between man and God and because of that a connection couldn't be made. But Christ came and removed the wedge, and placed a connection there through his sacrifice. All that one must do is to tap into the connection and talk and discuss with God. All one needs it to love and live for God to the best of their ability. Not every one (in the past) has heard of Christ IMO, and to those that don't but still have a concept of the Creator have just as much chance as we do. They may not have had to acknowledge Christ because they did not know of him. However, I believe that these people only existed in the past. I don't believe anyone currently on the planet hasn't heard of Jesus Christ(after all this is the age of communication). Seek and find, and to the person who has ears let him hear.


What do you think the promises are, and what would prove that they are in effect?


Actually Christianity is one of the only exclusive religions. Many other religions teach that you can go to heaven even if your not one of them. Islam for instance, is given a huge bad rep for the exclusivity of it, however in one of the Surah's it says that all of the Abrahamics will make it because we serve the same God (it is a contradiction in there because it also says that Christians and Jews won't make it). Even Jews will say that God doesn't care what you believe. Many Jewish Rabbis teach that one needn't serve Jehovah to make it. As is with Mormonism because they believe your afterlife is based on your works. To my knowledge every major religion has at some point taught and "all make it to heaven" doctrine with the exception of Christianity which has always taught that one must be saved through Christ. Catholicism (which I don't group with Christians, and BM, if you disagree PM me so that we don't derail the topic) has changed. JP2 proclaimed that it didn't matter, Benedict says otherwise. IMO, men have no right to just go about changing this sorta thing, especially since they are the largest church on the planet. Christianity is unique, we are very different from other religions in many ways yet it doesn't appear to be so because of the bad rep we get from the Catholics and other Christ-proclaiming heretical religions.


IMO, the promise made to us by God is the opportunity to be with him. The walk of a Follower of God is a personal walk. None of us who personally talk with God have any doubt of his existence. When Christ came he promised many things but all of them were fueled by one purpose, seeing and being with the Father. Christ came so that we could be with him and the Father in their Kingdom. Jesus came because sin was in the way, and it needed to be out of the way. When one decides to engage in that personal walk one is choosing to be with God for eternity. One is saying "God I love you and I need you. I want to be with you." Such prayers bring smiles to God's face because he knows it is the beginning of a long journey through which you must travel. There is no scientific evidence of God except for that which we can attribute to God. You can't use science to explain what is spiritual. It just doesn't work. Science is on a physical level and in order to experience a relationship with God one must elevate to a spiritual level. A level of understanding. When one engages in the relationship they look at their life. They examine themselves before the Lord and they come to a realization that they are not perfect, that they are not the center of the world. It is stepping into wisdom and coming into the grace of God. It's realizing that your not all that people will tell you that you are. The world promotes a huge "self" image where one's main and total focus is on one's self. However, if all are focused on themselves then we have conflict because all are different. The walk with God isn't easy because every once in a while doubt steps in and says "Hey, remember me? Your stupid, just think about it and see." But to the person who loves and lives for God with their whole heart doubt is nothing more than an irritation. The promise of God is that he will be there for you when you need him. He will comfort you and console you. He will talk to you when you need someone to talk to. Trust me, it's a wonderful thing. You don't know how refreshing the pool water can be on a hot day until you take a dip in it. I know you might be thinking "But I've done it before and nothing happened then." That, IMO, is because many of the "Christians" today proclaim a message that is desperately trying to be the true message but isn't. Just trust your heart and don't let your mind hold you back. Don't hold yourself back from experience truth and true happiness.


If someone else proved it to you than what would be the value of your faith? It would be nothing. It is something YOU must discover, you must seek it out on your own and find the prize. A finished work is only more appreciated when you have worked to finish it. Like with a house, it is a better feeling of accomplishment when one has built a house to live in, then when one buys a house. Simply because you have worked hard to build it and now that it's built you can reap the benefits. Same with faith, you must build your faith. God will provide the tools for the construction, but you must supply the work necessary to build that faith. Just trust God, let go, and give him control. Ask him to lead you to him, ask him to bring you closer and to help you build your faith so that you can be with him. Once you give him the keys you'll realize how much better a driver he is than you are.

We feel that it has been earned. It was a gift given to us by Christ. That was his purpose for being here, a gift, we just have to accept it.

son just my pov i have observed child to grow alot and he seriously examines the contents of the bible( he also has his parents to guide him if need be, as his age he should be quetioning and exploring as he is....) I would encourage him to carry one and share what he is learning, what he thinks what wisdoms he is coming too, continue questioning as he is) IMO he is coming along ) this is how one learns to think, it seems and i mean no disrespect you are old school telling him what he should think ( i know this is the times you came form but its a new day now )by saying its important that he sees what you see is the same as telling him what he should see./think...... this is not possible we each bring our own pov to anything our own life experince and wisdoms.....

Can I ask how you feel you have all earned it? by doing what? sorry I am just curious

Great post sis...you are right, only COI can do this on his own...he has to learn, just like we all did

Because Jesus died for us. This, to us, is the greatest gift of all.. the gift of salvation. Not so much something earned, but something given. Like you make sacrifices for your daughter, because you love her. She may feel she doesn't earn it, but because you LOVE HER SOO MUCH you want her to have the greatest thing in the world. -- That's what Christ did for us. He loved us the same way, and made that sacrifice for us out of that love.

With all due respect Sunni please don't be offended by my next opinions on the matter, after all that's what we do here lol.....

We didn't ask anyone to die for our sins to SAVE us..........and besides, it seems rather pointless that he did die for everyones sins, reason as to how I see it as pointless, is because you MUST not only accept it, but at the same time REPENT for your own sins...so it defeats the purpose of him dying for sins....if he did that to save US ALL< then whats the point in wanting to be saved again. Anyone can accept Jesus as a saviour, without being born again and again lol you get my drift!!

As for my daughter, If i had to die for her, I wouldn't call it a sacrafice sunni, I would do it out of HONOUR for her and only for her...and when she gets a lil older, that girl of mine will have to EARN any gift ideas and priviliges and not to forget my respect....I was brought up the same way....least i forget to mention, if I did go to sacrafice myself or anything for her, she WOULD have earned it in the 1st place for just being a good girl and good loving daughter!!!! This differs somewhat from the Jesus gift...the people have not yet done anything to earn it, if you call just accepting him as a saviour for what he did earning it, that dont make sense to me....its too easy!!

You say Jesus felt the same for all of us, well as I am only human, I find it hard to believe he felt the same kind of love that a mother has for her child, sorry but nope i don't buy it, and he made the sacrifice for US out of love....you forgot the side note attachment that reads - yea but here's the catch folks, you must accept what ive done and worship me and repent ect ect <---------------NOT a gift....IMO to give someone a gift, you do not ask them to accept it, you just hope they like it....and you do not ask for something in return either I for one never give a gift just so I can get something in return...no decent human being would

Sorry sunni but those are just my thoughts, hope I haven't offended you in any way

I was more making the distinction between the idea that Heaven is this la-la land place where those who are there walk around on clouds playing lyres and the actual idea of eternal life that is written of in the Bible.


You are right, Jesus did die for all men's sins, but Jesus Himself taught that each man has to then believe and accept in order for His sacrifice to pay for their sins. If you read the Gospels and pay attention to the parables this becomes quite obvious. The parable of the seeds which fall into different kinds of soil are a very simple indication of this. Heck, what he said to the two criminals who were crucified with him does also. The sacrifice is there for any and all, but each person has to choose to accept that the sacrifice was actually for them.

I understand you're trying to make Salvation a universal situation to explain what happens to those who never hear or never heard of Jesus's sacrifice. But really the Bible doesn't present Salvation as universal, it also doesn't say what will or won't happen to those who never heard of Jesus. Most people automatically assume that means they all die unsaved, but there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that. If you pay attention the Bible tells us what happens to those who die in their sins, but it never says that all who don't know about Jesus die in their sins. Romans 1 also states that creation itself tells us everything we need to know about God. This to me is indication that even those who never hear of Christ, have equal opportunity to be saved from their sins.

This is where I break free from the traditional Christian view. I don't believe that acceptance or the repentance is necessary. If Christ came, and gave us the gift of not having to be blocked from God by sin, than there isn't anything we must do to make the gift happen. I believe that all one must do for the sake of their eternal soul is turn to God the Father and say "God, I love you. I need you. Be here for me. Reveal yourself to me." And bam, it happens. I believe that SOME acknowledgment of Christ is good, but if one has not heard of Christ I think God would hear them just fine. One thing I noticed in your post, is how you cannot believe that God can love humanity as a mother would love a child. God's love for us is absolutely unimaginable. To feel it pouring down on you is an amazing feeling that's almost so good that it could kill you. IMO, the love he has for us is greater than a mother or father has for his/her children. With true Biblical Christianity, there is no catch, there isn't anything you must do to receive, all that must happen is you must realize that God is there, that he loves you, and you must seek him out to be with him eternally.



Wouldn't that constitute a work for receiving Salvation? In my view of Salvation, there isn't anything we must do to receive it. All already have salvation from their sins. Sin isn't any longer a problem in that we do not HAVE to sin.








I realize you are trying to present the "Biblical" view, which I am well aware of. However, the view you have presented is nothing more than a doctrinal error on the church's behalf IMO. After talking and speaking with God, and asking to be led to the truth. I read the Bible, and I get the version of Salvation that I have gotten.


Yes, but all the evidence in Creation does not speak of Christ. Therefore, how can you be saved if you know there's a God but don't know Christ in YOUR version? IMO, one who realizes the existence of God and seeks to have a personal relationship will receive that personal relationship along with having the joyous gift of spending eternity with their most cherished love one, God.

Yes, Sheri, it is very important that someone COI's age to wonder and explore, and study, but if someone like him doesn't also receive some guidance because wondering and exploring by themselves do not always lead to truth. I'm not talking about points of view, after all, I have studied under some gifted and knowledgeable teachers who have guided me as I also wonder and explore, and although they helped me arrive at the truth, the way I use that truth, the way I work with that truth is my own way, expresses who I am, and allows me to achieve results my teacher would not have been able to because they are a different person. I am not trying to force him to think like me, I am simply pointing out that he may not be observing everything he needs to, that because of his youth and inexperience, he may be missing an important bit of data because as he explores it doesn't seem important or because he simply missed it. Sharing one's hard-won knowledge and wisdom is an important part of life, if all we're going to do is gain it for ourselves and never share it with those younger than us, then it's a waste.

the bible states 1. God is the author of everything. EVERYTHING good or bad. if one is going to 'hell' then God was the author.

2. the bible also states that the number of those who believe in jesus and to be 'saved' itself is predetermined before one is born

'Ephesians' in the Christian Bible is a letter written around 61CE or 62CE by an unknown author claiming to be Paul. Some historians believe the author based this letter on the letter of Paul to Colossians. [Roberts, 1990]


"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

It is only through Jesus Christ, say Christians, that Human beings can enter heaven. (Hence why Christianity is called what it is). The verse above says that God has blessed "us" with Christ. The "us" are those who God chose, before creation, to be "holy and blameless". You can only enter heaven if you are blameless, without sin, and to do that you need Jesus. But you only have Jesus if God has chosen you as one of the ones who is blessed with Jesus. It specifically says, next, that God has predetermined particular chosen people to be sons of Jesus. To this lucky people God has "freely given" Jesus. To the others, there is no access to heaven. All of this is chosen, predetermined, before we have had any chance to exercise free will. The cause and affect is not that our free will determines out fate; but that we will act in a way that will save us, if God has chosen us to act that way. It clearly denies free will.

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:28-30

Note the logic here... God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and these people love God. God then "works for the good" of these people. It is not that these people have acted well and have then accepted God: People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus. These people are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined, called, justified and glorified" those who it chose, not those who chose God. Their choice was irrelevant: If God predetermined them to be accepted, then they therefore behave in a way that makes them accepted, conformed to Jesus. In Christianity you only get into Heaven through Jesus, but in Christianity as we have seen, you are only blessed with Jesus, and you only conform to Jesus, if God has chosen you to be.

So far we have seen that God has chosen some people to be predestined and predetermined to be blessed with conformity to Jesus' will. What of the others, then, who God has chosen not to conform to Jesus, who God has chosen not to be blameless and holy? Presumably, they go on to make similar choices in life to those who are chosen, but they just don't get it right because God hasn't created them in that way. God has created them to fail.

If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions? The Biblical text runs thusly:

"16It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'. If you're not lucky enough to be created for a noble purpose, then you are for common use, relegated to hell and torment, a life without conformity to Christ, and not only is this unjust and painful situation created by God, Paul then says that you have no right to even raise a concern! You can't ask, "Is God Just?" or "How can God still blame us for our actions?", Paul simply states that it doesn't matter, it is tough, God 'hardens who he wants to harden', those who were not noble are waste, space-filler, used, abused... and this unholy mess was all created by God, according to the Bible! No free will is involved, no Human volition can change whether we were made for noble purposes to do pre-planned good acts, or whether we were made for common use, to be discarded and "punished" simply for not having been created right!

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christiani...tml#Conclusions


personally? I think all religion is bunk. they all have God wrong.

IMO to give someone a gift, you do not ask them to accept it, you just hope they like it....and you do not ask for something in return either I for one never give a gift just so I can get something in return...no decent human being would

In christianity a lot believe you MUST accept this gift and repent <---I call that giving something back....its also known as being thankful he died for your sins.....

I rest my case

Well child gods love isn't even close to a mothers love no mother would send her child knowingly to die a heinous death, a mother has no conditons on her love it is her honor and privilege to love, that is her point no matter what the child does even if the child goes a path she would not of chosen or outright dissagrees... its in these moments precisely she will show her love and there is no greater ...she jsut loves as she knows that love is sufficent unto itself it NEEDS nothing or REQUIRES nothing as it is complete itself....god is caugth up in the human romatisiced love... you do for me, I do for you this is really Fear.....to truly see a mothers heart is to truly understand love ...

Sunni while I understand what you mean with this, the problem is that there should be no need for sacrificice in the first place. It's barbaric to require a sacrifice to give your own creations something, especially if you're the one doing the sacrifice. I wouldn't tell a child to earn my forgiveness then cut my hand off and say "ok, I will give you this sacrifice as a gift and I can forgive you now". You just forgive the child.

Something to prove all other religions but your's right would do good.



I do.

I've accepted my fate as well. I'm simply going to die one day and not exist anymore. You would have an excellent arguement if not for the fact there are so many other religions out there that believe in a vast pool of different ideas. The sad thing is I do think I know what you're talking about... When I was still a christian I loved the feeling of someone there to talk to, help me out and watch over me then the idea of getting into heaven for my good deeds was great... Yet as a bit more grown up and hit with a good dose of rational thinking... It's really just a trick of the mind to believe. Many mental patients with sever schizophrenia believe and sometimes more in their minds own ability to send them people, images, and different items. The mind is a powerful tool.



Nothing more then the promise of heaven and the whole afterlife deal if you follow the bible and christ.



It's only different to you because you want it to be. The same basics are there... Believe or don't believe it's a choice but you'll either be rewarded or punished in some way. They also all require their followers to simply take a leap of faith that it's the right way rather then showing anything to prove it.

There is a muslim out there who believes just as much in islam as you do in christianity. There is a jew out there that believes just has much in judaism as much as you do in christianity. There's a hindu out there who believes as much in hinduism as you do in christianity. And so on...



Again, that arguement would work if christianity was the only religion. But it isn't. What and how am I suppose to discover this faith? I'm just suppose to let my brain shut down and just believe in any ol' thing that faith comes up with? I can have faith in the invisible pink unicorn fully the same way I could have faith in christ.

So you talk of salvation and offere nothing for it towards others. So because I can't believe I'm going to be punished for my sins in christianity... And all the ohter religions out there that speak of punishments. It's amazing how you can justify one religion and say all other gods and goddesses are false... Yet using your own arguements... You can't prove their religions false but only can really hope that you're right in your choices.

Good Post KBA

BM, suppose you receive a present that has a beautiful wrapping. How can you enjoy the present without first removing the wrap? Some unwrap and enjoy the gift. Some leave it wrapped and toss it away.


Your right, It's far beyond a mother's love.


You search within yourself. Think about what you believe, and don't worry about what others tell you to believe. Find truth on your own, and seek what rings true to you. Don't worry about all the other religions, don't worry about anyone or anything else. Just think about you, and what you believe. Think about how you'll go about living what you believe. Don't worry about what others tell you because what you seek is personal.