Listen, I am not categorically denying that there aren't similarities between Christianity and sun worship. You know, if you search the web you will find pages and pages of articles comparing Christianity with dozens and dozens of religions. Shin Buddhism, Zoroastrians, Mithraism, Egyptian religions, Wicca... you name it and Christianity will have parallels. When I was speaking of December 25th being so important, I was speaking specifically to the argument presented in 'Zeitgeist'. Ancient people spoke of things like the virgin and three kings because they have astrological basis. However, the explanation for the birth of Christ as 'Zeitgeist' tells it is completely false because Christ Jesus was not born on December 25th. That is what I'm talking about.

I must stress, once again, that similarities do not define something. Differences do. If you'd like I could go into similarities between trees and popsicles, or hot air balloons and George Bush. That does not mean that one came from the other, or that they come from the same source.

There is a reason why Christianity shares so many parallels with other religions, and it has nothing to do with them developing from one another. You'll just dismiss it as 'Christian mumbo-jumbo' but I will explain it for the benefit of others that might read this.

It all comes down to one person, Satan. Yep, just like 'Zeitgeist' said, the devil did it. He is not all powerful and he cannot predict the future, but he is one smart cookie.

"Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 'If you are the Son of God,' he said, 'throw yourself down. For it is written: He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" - Matthew 4:5-6 (NIV)


Here we have a very valuable insight. Satan studies scripture. He knows the Bible better than the most learned scholars because he been around much longer and he doesn't have any doubt of the truth within. All those similarities between Christianity and other religions; virgin birth, miracles, crucifixion and the resurrection, they were all fortold in the Torah hundreds and hundreds of years before the birth of Christianity. If I was Satan, and my intent was to decieve humanity away from the truth, you better believe that I would have taken all those prophecies and claimed that they were done before. I would have established false religions around them. I would have set-up at many parallels as I could have. I would have done these things and I'm not even as smart as Satan is. Ever heard the expression 'the ring of truth'? That's because deep down everyone can feel what is truth and what isn't. This is because God is the origin of all truth and us humans, being made in God's image, resonate with that truth. That is why all these grand lies and schemes have a little bit of truth in them, to mask the lies and fake that resonance.

"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." - Galatians 5:9 (NIV)

3 cups truth and 1 teaspoon of lie and you still have one big lie.


I will never claim that Christianity is unique in everything. It is Biblical that other religions have pieces of the truth here and there. This is why we can't look at similarities. The fact that much of Christianity is mirrored in other civilizations throughout history does not go against scripture, it reinforces it.

So what does the Bible have going for it that no other religion does? What are these differences that I keep yapping about? Two words. Accurate Prophecy. And not 'weak Nostradamus prophecys either' as salt put it. And it's not like Bible prophecy is right some of the time, or even most of the time. It's all the time. Most people shun the Bible for religious and spiritual reasons and will not look into it. Those who do look, however, are rewarded with the proof they need. Want an example?

"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'Because Edom took revenge on the house of Judah and became very guilty by doing so, therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will stretch out my hand against Edom and kill its men and their animals. I will lay it waste, and from Teman to Dedan they will fall by the sword. I will take vengeance on Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my wrath; they will know my vengeance, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"- Ezekiel 25:12-14 (NIV)


Now Ezekiel has been determined, by our modern day scientific methods, to be written between 593-570 B.C.. There are numerous other passages in the Old Testament, even ones written before this one, that fortold of the fall of Edom. They not only tell that it would fall, but how it would and what Edom's city would become like in the future. Guess what, all of these things took place around a hundred years later. Now, if you're like most people I've spoken to about this, you'll be like 'So what, who can be certain what happened so long ago. Maybe the dates are wrong or blah blah blah with a little more blah blah blah.' But people who do this are disregarding hard scientific evidence, the same scientific evidence they so vehemently stick to when they try to use it to disprove the Bible. This is just one of tons of examples of accurate prophecy in the Bible. Prophecy that was fortold hundreds of years in advance and then later fulfilled to the letter. Scientific facts don't disprove it but, instead, back it up.

What does all this go to show? It's simple. People believe what they want to believe. There is proof that the Bible is the Word of God, for those that are honestly looking for it. If you don't want to find it, then you won't. I know. I've been in your shoes before.

precisely as i thought, blame it on time traveling satan this is the only argument i've seen put forward, right.

look, similarities is one thing i can deal with...
but when claims of the saviour, god, gods are identical .. even someone like yourself must stop and think, hmm, what's causing these strikingly similar claims, replace your misguided faith in this book with rational thinking and logic, for just 5 minutes, you seem like an intelligent person.

The Christos in other forms.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Satan can't time travel, silly. Only God lives outside of time.

Trust me, I have used rational thinking. It's this very topic that use to cause me to doubt my faith. What it comes down to, though, noone can show a direct link to these things. It's all theory and hypothesis. I abandoned the theory of evolution because I saw that similarities don't attribute to much. In reality all religions are similar in that they look for a means beyond us to explain the unexplainable. Whether God is in us, or around us, or He's abandoned us, we are Gods, or whatever form of higher power has done what... it still lies on that basic premise. I just finished checking out this website which compares Bush with Hitler and trust me, when staring at these things they look identical. I can assure you, though, that they are not the same person. When you look beyond these things that's when you see what makes each unique.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

Can't you see that no matter what Jesus would have done, someone would have compared it to something? The amount of old religions out there and the number of ancient stories and feats are astounding. We're talking thousands and thousands of years of history here. People dedicate their entire lives to trying to learn all these things and they never finish! No matter what Jesus could have done, there would always have been someone else who could have thought it up.

There may be many similarities between Christianity and another religion, but I assure you that they are not completely identical. You could show me someone who did 25 of the same things Jesus did and it still wouldn't be close. You realize that there were over 300 prophecies in the OT that Jesus had to fulfill?

If need be, you can name me a religion that you think is identical to Christianity. I am no expert but I have wonderful research skills and if you give me a little time I will show you the critical differences between them. I know that we're debating about one religion developing into another but we will never have definitive proof one way or the other. We will never find an ancient letter saying "Waddup brother. Today I decided to start calling Mithra Jesus because I got a papercut on my tongue and it hurts when I say his name in prayer." Since we will never be able to definatively prove one way or the other it comes down to believing what you want to believe. I really really want the Bible to be true. I really do want Jesus to come back and save us all from this place. That is one of the reasons I am the way I am. What you need to see is the reason you are why you are. You believe this way, not because there is proof because there's none, you believe like you do because of a few similarities. A couple of parallels that you're willing to stake your life on.

I will admit that I could be completely wrong about everything. My entire life could be one big fat lie. This causes me to rely on my faith even more because without it, I'd be smoke in the wind.

Couldn't it be possible that you could be wrong too?

ok, take a deep breath, take a step back from your hewlett packard and try to understand how arrogant your claims are, so you admit all of these things yet you single out your JESUS as the one who happens to be the the out of the many crazy stories available for your literary entertainment back in those days.
what gives you the right to single out your belief from all those "old religions out there"
YES we are talking thousands and thousands of years..so along the WHOLE spectrum of time what gives that little spec called christianity any credence (outside of YOUR mind)WHAT SO EVER???? buuuuuudy.

Hey

Just thought i might add this to your discussion...

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=83695

NICE ONE!
nn23

you dang geniuses and you're IP spying intrusions! leave my HP out of this

i told you man, prophecy. you know any other book out there that tells you what will happen in the future and be 100% right?


(btw, anyone is welcome in on this. the more the merrier )

thank you for reference. this is the stuff that we're speaking about.

LOL

OK so here we go again...



fill me in on what the bible has predicted.. and HAS come true.


p.s. do u really have a HP? i was just intelligence profiling.

The problem with this whole issue is that most of these similarities are so generalised that they cannot help but be seen as similarities. A quote like "Jesus performed miracles and so did Krishna, therefore they are copies" is laughably generalised, any out-of-the-ordinary event, no matter how different can thus be compared as being the same. And in the places where the miracles are the same, it's obvious why. Saying "Jesus turned water into wine. Dionysus turned water into wine. Therefore they must be copies" is just ludicrous. Dionysus is the God of wine, of course he'd turn things into wine. Forget the other differences between the two. Or "Jesus healed the sick. Asclepius healed the sick. Therefore they must be copies" is just as silly, considering Asclepius is the God of Healing.

Then people turn to the way the deity was born. Remember of course that there are only so many combinations of births possible. The deity could be born from:

~2 mortals
~2 deities
~a mortal/deity cross
~a virgin birth
~birth from a promiscuous woman
~transformed from an animal
~transformed from stone
~Reincarnated
~created fully grown

And probably a couple of others that I can't think off the top of my head. Every one of the births listed above can be correlated to the birth of other deities. If Jesus wasn't born from a virgin, it would have been something else and then people would then write a list of the deities that resembled that birth and claim he was copied from them instead.

Add to the mix the highly questionable and universally dismissed work of Achyra S. and Kersey Graves which because of the nature of the internet still manage to get passed off as fact, and voila - You have the state of affairs that inspire threads such as this one.

Regards, PA

People give Gods things that make them God like. Turning water into wine, rising from the dead, virgin birth, are all attributes of God beings in the eyes of human beings. So if you want to write about a person like Jesus whom you want to portray as a god you give him god attributes. He may have been just an average Joe, but to make people worship him you have to make him spacial and god like. Jesus, if he lived at all, didn't write down a word. Everything was written after his death by some who claimed to have known him and those who weren't born when he was supposed to have lived. Unless we find a book he actually wrote we will never truly know what he thought or his life and death.

Interesting thread Llucid For those that want to research it a little further here is and fascinating article.
Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
by Hugh Ross, Ph.D.
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.
The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.
As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.

Continued here: clic

thank you so much, Irish. You saved me alot of time.

There you go, Zombie. Use this resource and do some research. Don't just rely on this one source, either. Look into it all for yourself. If you're so certain that the Bible isn't what it says it is, devote yourself to proving just one of it's prophecies wrong.

(and yes Zombie, you hit the nail on the head. HP dv9000 series good job)

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''



1] Relative to scientific matters, when compared with other scientists who have contributed significantly to the relation between science and theology (for example see temp), the secular scientific achievements of Hugh Ross can only be considered as minimal in character. With only 5 published articles in established secular scientific journals, the last being in December 1977, it is clear, to me, that Ross and his associates could not possibly be aware of the somewhat complex modern (1985 - present) scientific techniques used to analyze such speculative theories as the standard model for the evolution of our universe or to analyze specific theological doctrine. Because of these facts, one should investigate very, very carefully any scientific pronouncements or claims made by members of his organization, and definitely not accept them based simply upon a claimed, but not substantiated, scientific authority. [Note: The author of this commentary is a member of a group of scientists who present models that uphold recent creation. This "Reason to Believe" ministry tends to denigrate the scientific background and achievements of members of this group. If you have not done so, you may wish to compare this author's "1. Professional Biography" and "10. Published Papers" with those of Hugh Ross. This will help you to determine the truthfulness of any such assertion.]


SOURCE http://www.serve.com/herrmann/ross.htm

Interesting, Irish. How many of those prophecies have been fulfilled since the council of Nicaea?

The history in the Bible is questionable, and when you make up history it is easy to make prophecies come true.

if thats the case you bring forward as evidence for fulfilled prophecy... then lol, lol.. and um ehah *cough* LOL

also lol..


you know for a second i thought you might actually have something.

oh well.. maybe next week.

Amen! Preach it!

Thats the kind of logic that gets you killed in a life or death situation.

Nice thread Llucid and you make some good points.

Oh, you think that this group were the ones to prove that the prophecies were true?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are the equivalent of a news channel reporting the news. You want some other ones?

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/proof.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/wv/wwwcg/proof.html

There's a couple of links for you. But hey, don't want to hear this stuff from a Christian then look into it yourself. Measure up what the Bible says about history (all written in advance when it comes to prophecy) with what our history books say today. I'm sure you got a Bible around there somewhere. Do the digging yourself if you can't trust another. Use some elbow grease if you really want to prove the Bible wrong. Many have tried before.

Don't look at prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet. There's a million and one interpretations of future prophecy and since it hasn't happened yet, it can't be proven. Use past prophecy that has been fulfilled and measure it up with history that we know took place. That's how you can find proof.



Council of Nicea took place in 325 AD. All of the prophecies that took place concerning the Messiah were made in B.C.
If you have so much doubt about Nicea, then look to prophecies strictly in the OT that concern the rise and fall of nations in B.C. Try to prove one of those wrong using historical evidence.



Ignore the group that was just reporting the news if you have to. They had nothing to do with the prophecies besides making a website that looked at some. Tell you what. Grab a Bible and then go to the most secular historical experts you can find and see if they match.



Finding the truth is worth dying for.

Oh my god!

[quote name='Llucid' date='Jul 28 2007, 04:31 AM' post='1797751']
Oh, you think that this group were the ones to prove that the prophecies were true?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are the equivalent of a news channel reporting the news. You want some other ones?

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/proof.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/wv/wwwcg/proof.html

There's a couple of links for you. But hey, don't want to hear this stuff from a Christian then look into it yourself. Measure up what the Bible says about history (all written in advance when it comes to prophecy) with what our history books say today. I'm sure you got a Bible around there somewhere. Do the digging yourself if you can't trust another. Use some elbow grease if you really want to prove the Bible wrong. Many have tried before.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@'




You should be aware that when you put forward a proposition the onus of proof is yours not mine .Secondly you obviously missed the point of my post .which was ::::Irish put forward Hugh Ross as a reference .my post cast doubts on his credibility as a serious source .I mentioned nothing about the bible

fullywired

Quick question...how does fulfilled prophecies indicate that a god is real?

If the Bible says "Cadetak will conquer the world" and I do does that mean that mean that God is real? I don't it does...I just think that whoever wrote the bible can see the future.

Oh, I know. That's why I flung out a couple more sources. I mention the Bible because, ultimately, it is the direct source for any kind of Bible prophecy.

I appreciate your insight, though. You help keep things honest around here

(misunderstanding was my fault. that 'you' that I was speaking to was Zombie)

The prophecy validates the book that the prophecy was in. Just as Jesus was proved to be the Son of God by his miracles- so the Bible is proved to be the Word of God by it's miracles (aka prophecy)

Hello Zombie, showing your absolute ignorance against the bible again? Claiming believers have a mental illness? Well thats fine, I must be the sickest person out there. Here are some biblical predictions that have come true.

The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.

Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.

The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.

Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.

Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.


Oh and zombie, I saved this one for you

People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.

You have just fulfilled prophecy my friend, how does it feel?

Right on! That goes to what I have been saying: People wouldn't have such a hard time accepting the Bible's authenticity if things written therein didn't leave them with the obligation to reform. People want to do what they want to do. Thats what was described in the book of Genesis when Adam and Eve were duped by the serpent to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. -Genesis 3:5" It was in the heart of men to live without God from the beginning. And like a plant uproots itself from its water source and eventually dies, so did man uproot himself from his Source of Life and eventually died.

ok, i didnt realise you all were so far down the rat hole of ignorance.
now before i continue, is there anything more you would like to add?
do you actually believe that those 5 (or how ever many you interperate as a "prophecy") examples are irrefutable evidence suggesting that the Bible has predicted the future with help from a super natural being (god)?
before i post a reply ill give you another chance to perhaps do some research of your own, this subject has a a multitude of information very easy to find and i also suggest referencing sources without christian interests at its core, that way you have more chance of seeing an unbiased rational explanation for these extremely weak at best "prophecies".
As someone said earlier, YOU are the one making a claim of a supernatural puppet master, there for the onus is on you to bring forward all evidence both for and against.

on a side note, i find it extremely interesting that I am the one labeled as ignorant.
I am not the one who reads (or has read to them) a few passages from the bible, adopts a view on life and our origin based on EXTREMELY flawed logic and infact REQUIRES and extremely huge leap of faith to adobt this outlook (the acceptance of a higher being who has interest in our day to day affairs.) when there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF THIS PHENOMENON OCCURRING OUTSIDE OF THE BELIEVERS MIND, INFACT there is a countless number of rational reasons to completely REBUKE the WHOLE hypothesis.
infact i am the one who reads and weighs up EVERYTHING, from the whole spectrum of the argument.
i have been on your side of the fence for many years, i moved on when i saw how ludicrous it is.
most of you i know for a fact, have been on that side of the fence their whole life, have not even ENTERTAINED the idea of a "godless" universe, or weighed up the evidence from an unbiased point of view without the logic corrupting assumptions that the theistic critical thinkers love to putfoward as a truth.

There are thousands of fulfilled prophecies, my man. THOUSANDS. All true. All took place. Historical evidence has not disproven a single one.
I suggest that you check all those sources you point to and see if you can find evidence of one failed prophecy.


"We live by faith, not by sight." - 2 Corinthians 5:7

"For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" - Romans 1:7


If you had proof then you wouldn't worship God because of faith, you would do it because you know. If you worshipped because you know then it wouldn't be by your free will, it would be because you just saw God and you've realized that He is who He is. It would rob you of your free will. Don't you like your free will?

agrees

If there are thousands of prophecies please list them, prove that each is a prophecy and then prove that each came true. And also prove that the prophecy was actually prophesising the event you linked it to, then please explain how these came from god and not some loonie on Shrooms! Please remember to show how you worked it out. Its your job, if you make these broad statements to back them up.

We aint gonna believe you otherwise matey! And btw dont try telling me to go looking for the evidence, that'll just make me assume you dont have any, or at least dont know where it is. You say somethings true you gotta back it up!

I read the Bible once, all the way through....its depressing that people would choose to worship the playground bully who picks on everyone smaller than him for the pettiest of reasons.

Oh, how surprising, another person asking for proof in order to believe.

I could link a prophecy. I could show it's fulfillment in scripture and historical evidence. I could give you reasons why I believe this prophecy was pertaining to this event. I wouldn't be able to prove to you that it was from God and not from man. Therefore, the whole exercise would be worthless and a waste of time.

If you aren't open to believing in it there is nothing I can say to change your mind. Man cannot change hearts, that is the realm of God.

Is there a part of the concept of faith that you fail to understand?

"Give me proof, so I'll believe," is an oxymoron. if you have proof, then there is no longer a reason to believe, you know. Christians know, because once you put faith in God and His gift of life, then you receive proof that is so personal that you can't deny it. But the small step of faith is necessary.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say it. This excuse, yes EXCUSE is plain ridiculous. First off, it IS Christian mumbo-jumbo. Second off, how do you know that Satan did this? That's right, you don't. It's just the only working excuse you can get to fit into your Christian beliefs that actually works(For you anyway).



Is God unfair then? I was a Christian for almost 18 years and I've never recieved this "personal proof". Oh, but wait, you'll use the same predictable excuse.... "You did something wrong Zero!". Either that or you'll first put me through an "interview" asking me tons of questions about my faith and how I went about it, just so you can say "WAIT! This and this was wrong. That's why God didn't show himself to you!".

Well, I have something for you. Put all of your faith into believing in the Holy Wind Dragon. When you do, you'll get a personal experience so powerful, that you will NEVER question his existence.

Are you asking for proof that this is the way that Satan works? I assume you mean spiritual and scriptural proof since Satan is supernatural. I could provide ample evidence that Satan strives to counterfeit God, that he yearns to take His place on the throne. If you search the scriptures for Satan's nature and his methods, it's quiet logical that he would try to fulfill prophecy his own way, it would serve to prove him equal to God.

Also, it's important to point out that none of the similarities to Jesus are very close. To have something be similar, you would need to replicate the central event and have a few minor differences in the detail. The central event for Jesus is a messiah coming to save people from the inevitable destruction of the world. No other character hailed as 'similar to Jesus' did this, only a few details were the same. Regardless how hard Satan tried to fulfill the prophecies, he couldn't see the main point of Jesus coming. The Bible said that if he had known the real reason for Jesus' coming, then he wouldn't have killed Him.

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." - 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (NIV)

Since Satan didn't know the true intent behind the coming of the Christ, he couldn't create an exact fulfillment.




Well, it would be hard to address the issue without asking questions. Most of the time when I hear this statement from Christians and ex-Christians, it because they were born and raised in a church. They typically got saved when they were very young (like 6 or 7) before they really understood what they were doing. Then, they lived out life thinking that everything was all fine. They went to church, all their family members were Christians so they were all set. They didn't understand what it's really all about, and they never really asked critical questions of their beliefs. Then, later on in life when they are older, they become independant and go off to college or move away. Doing this they encounter new people, a new life, and since their foundation isn't properly laid, it falls away very quickly when they encounter different teachings.

I also think it has alot to do with the church or the Christian influences someone has in their life. Alot of churches and Christians aren't doing what they are Biblically called to do. I'm not trying to judge your church or anything, but exposure to fundamental Biblical teaching is a factor in one's Christian walk.

Lastly, I would ask if you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you. Alot of people neglect to do this (maybe because it's too simple an answer) and the results can be very enlightening.

I would have to say, though, according to the Bible any problem we experience with our relationship with God is our own fault. I can't say that you didn't kneel close enough to the ground, or you didn't dress up nice enough to go to church and that's why you never experienced God. Suprisingly, our relationship with Him has very little to do with effort on our part. One thing that does matter is our motives and reasons, our level of sincerety. That could have been a problem as well. If you aren't truly seeking God then you won't truly find Him. It's not surprising to find that people who try to seek God to prove that He doesn't exist typically don't find Him.

(p.s. kenshin is the man)

Sounds like you have all the answers.

Hope you and the Holy Wind Dragon are blessed and happy together.

AAH!! So it is becouse you have no proof. And therefore it must be made up....

Being that all of the same old excuses are getting used too much, I'd say I do.



He's going to eat your soul for not believing in him!



Yadda yadda ya. Let me paraphrase you. "You did something wrong, Zero!". Which means I was right... That was going to be your excuse.



So all that you're left with is pretty much.... A being that we don't even know exists, may, just perhaps make a religion that we don't know is true or not appear like it's copying other religions based on what the religion's holy book says. And we don't even know if this holy book holds true words in it.

You do know that there's no way to win an arguement with a Christian right? Why am I even trying. The words of the Bible can be looked at and interprated in so many different ways, that there will ALYWAYS be an "excuse" to get past certain obstacles. Whether it be true or not.

Yes, you were right.

According to the Bible, God wants to fill all of us with His glory. He is restricted on doing this by how much control we give to Him. If you did not experience God then it was your fault. Maybe that's why things didn't work out, you keep looking for reasons for your shortcomings from other sources instead of looking at yourself.



It's called faith. I am proud to live by faith and I don't care if you don't have 'proof' for why I believe what I do. It doesn't matter that you view my beliefs and the Bible as foolishness, and you doing so just proves the Bible's truths even more.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)

You can believe whatever you want, but don't look down on others because they don't believe the same way you do.

The fault lies in his non-existence!



Since we don't need to PROVE anything when talking to eachother.. How about I set up a hypothetical question for you? WHAT IF this was not the reason? Then what? And honestly, the only reason why you'd think it was because I did something wrong is because according to your beliefs "It just has to be!". Why? "Because if it isn't Zero's fault, then that'd mean God is unfair, which isn't true!"




LOL, no it doesn't. I'm sure that was written in the bible by man, because they knew (By using LOGIC) that there would be people to deny the bible. What a good way to trick those believers even more! Predict the predictable!

Well, this discussion is pretty much degrading into a spitting contest. I can't prove God exists, and you can't prove that He doesn't. People believe what they want to believe.

What if the fault didn't lie with you? Then there would be only one other answer. The fault would be with God, be that some sort of lack on His part, or because of His 'non-existence'. That means that either the Bible is right, or you are right. Pick the one you will, I'm sure it will be the one that most people pick.

I believe that the whole Bible was written by man, inspired by God. Either the Bible is right and God knew what would happen in the future, or you are right and man predicted it. Again, believe what you will. You accuse me of having no proof for anything, while at the same time lacking it for yourself. You can't prove that the Bible is not inspired by God. You believe what you want to, just like I do.

Do I need to prove that the Wind Dragon does not exist before I can say he does not exist? Exactly. Same goes for any God that is JUST CLAIMED to exist. I'm not spitting on anyone, I'm simply stating my opinion, which is pretty strong against Christianity.



Ok, fair enough. But since you must put blind faith into believing it's my fault, and can't prove it, you have to admit that it's a possibility that it's God's fault. And(Most likely) the only reason you're believing in the first choice, is because the latter would mean you're questioning your God.



My entire reason for not believing what you believe, is because YOU have no proof. Not because I have no proof that something does not exist(Which is impossible by the way. Called "Proving a negetive").

I don't mean to say you're spitting on me, I'm saying this is turning into a contest over who can spit the farthest, who can talk the loudest ect. There's no proof involved, it's just two people trying to force their views on each other. That's what I'm saying.

Hey, with all the spirits running around this planet, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Wind Dragon.



I admit it's a possibility. I question my God all the time. I admit that the Bible could be wrong and that all my beliefs could be false. All the feelings that I experience could be self-induced. I admit that I could be completely wrong and you could be completely right. That's why I have faith. I have hope that it is as the Bible says. How about you, could you be wrong?

I know that's why you don't believe me. That's why everyone like you doesn't believe me. You need proof to believe in anything. I don't, I take chances and believe in the unbelievable. I don't fault you for that, and I don't look down on you. Too bad I can't get the same treatment.

This all seems so unnecessarily complicated..
We look for reasons to have &/or keep faith in something bigger, it's our instincts maybe, we need some kind of confirmation to keep us motivated. When we connect with God spiritually, nothing else matters, nor should come in the way of that. Not rituals, not beliefs, not programming, not opinion, simply just you and your maker. When other stuff is added it causes noise in the line. We can't seem to hear our calling, or hear the words spoken to us because it's being contaminated with all this noise or pollution, we hear our own thoughts, and draw our own conclusions from that poison being spewed in between. The hardest thing I've found so far is to hear those words from my heavenly father and know that source to be genuine... no confusion, no rationalization, just a knowing deep down in my heart, and understanding those words with my mind.
There is too much corruption in between God and each one of us. Sort of Like going back to basics.. forget the complicated stuff, just go back to the basics.. God and you, God and me.

:}

I'm not a full on skeptic. I don't need proof for EVERY Single thing I beleive in. But when it comes to my life's philosophy, I do need SOMETHING to go on. Not just a 2,000 year old book that has nothing to make it's validity stand out more than any other religions. I'm a Deist for Christ's sake.... I believe there's a possibility that there is a creator. Somewhere, somehow. I see it as possible.

Oh, my mistake. I assumed that the 'Zero' served to negate the 'Deism' part of your name. My apologies.

I'm glad that you leave some room for the supernatural. I am still interested in hearing your answer to my question. Is there a possibility that you could be wrong in your beliefs? Maybe even a slight chance that I could be right?

There is always a chance that either one of us wrong. The main focus though, is the probability. I do not define this "Creator", if there is one, because I have no reason to. I have no evidence that any of the revealed religions speak the truth. There are so many, and no way of deciding which one is the truth, or even if ANY are true. So, the most logical conclusion I can personally make is..... Wait for proof that one of these religions are true, untill then: They are all man made stories to me.

And yes, I am open to the "supernatural". I believe in ghosts for instance.

Here is exactly what I was saying earlier. What if none are true, and we are waiting on TRUTH to come from misinformation, watered down translations. We'll wait forever. It can't happen (imo). In the meantime, we rott away.. putting our faith or not into false notions, ideals.

I personally don't see religion as an importance. It's only a structured guide for us humans. We *think* we need directions. We don't need these rituals, or structures to gain knowledge, to develop that spiritual connection with our creator. I've said this a gudzillion times already on this board. When we die there are no rituals, no religion, no bibles, or guides, it comes down to you and your creator (all in spirit), and in spirit is where this relationship will thrive, here is where there is confirmation, not in religion. Everything else seems to surround that connection. It begins with that relationship-- it will end on that relationship-- everything else is moot.

gosh, hope this makes some kind of sense- :/

I understand how you feel and this was my view at one point as well. Then I made a decision that the Truth wasn't going to fall into my lap. I didn't want to sit around and wait. If there was a God, then there might be something on my part that I needed to do and I didn't want to chance dying before I figured out what that was. This is what lead me on my spiritual journey.