I've seen several of his documentary's...and with the exception of terror storm, all his documentary's look alike. Unless you've seen them repeatedly, its pretty hard to tell the difference from one to the other.

Thats one of the things I do not like about him. He has good intentions and all, but there is more wrong with this presidency then the idea of trying to take over the world and create a police state.

yep.. he's just a loud mouth Texan CT.
"YA CALL THAT A CONSPIRACY THEORY BOY? THEY AIN'T A CONSPIRACY THEORY..HERE IN TEXAS WE...BLAH BLAH NWO BLAH"

The problem with Jones is that he spends far too much time pushing his ideological views and far too little time backing them up with any real weight. He loves to tell us what he believes is true, but he doesn't do nearly enough to actually prove it. From reading a lot of his material I think he does what a lot of us are guilty of from time to time; start with a premise, and then cherry pick information that he thinks will validate that premise. As someone who has the burden of impacting the minds of millions of people in this country and around the world, I think he has a responsibility to his fans to be a lot more substantive in his argumentation, rather than thinking that forboding music and "shocking" video montages are a valid substitute for accredited documentation and solid research. Taking a field trip to Texe Marrs' basement library doesn't cut it.

NumberOneSon

actually JONES facts are in fact, FACT, but i just said all his documentaries look alike with the exception of one. YOU 3 who responded sound a little as if he dosent know what he's talking about, that wasnt my intentions when i said all his documentaries look alike

I’ve taken the time to fact-check a number of claims in his documentaries and web articles, and I can tell you that a lot of the things he says are not facts. The only way you can know whether he’s being factual or not is if you’ve checked what he has said in the past. Have you?


That’s because a lot of the time he doesn’t.

NumberOneSon

Do a fact check on your evening news and you will find false statements and assumptions too. Alex Jones is just a theoryist, in my opinion, I doubt highly that much of what he says is completely factual, still you have to respect his ctheoristonviction. If we didn't have these raving nut-cases spewing out crazy conspiracy theories some of us intellectuals may overlook details we missed, dots that we never thought to connect. Regardless of whether you believe all of what Alex Jones says or not nobody can say that at least some of the concepts and ideas he talks about or not at the very least interesting and provocative.

I think the simular look of his documentarys is because they are all done by the same people. Much like a painter will have a consistant style or feel in the work, the same is true for other creative ventures. Terror Storm, being his lastest and most developed production, has made a departure from the feel and look of the earlier documentarys. I suspect End Game will continue this new direction.

I recently watched a few of his documentaries but the one that was really amazing was his doc on Bohemian Grove in which he infiltrated the clubs yearly ceremony. I can say that if world leaders and financial leaders are members of this type of club then they are a scary bunch of people. Now I don't subscribe to many of his theories especially in regards to 9/11 but he was talking about the North American Union before it was ever mentioned on TV among other things that may seem out there but are rooted in fact.

Many scholars including historians, and political scientists from all around the world also tend to agree that there is in fact some type of new world order as well. However at the same time admit that people would or at least not yet submit to such an idea.

Sure, but not on the scale commited by Jones. At least the press has a set of checks and balances. If Dan Rather sites false sources he can get canned; Alex Jones on the other hand can site falsehoods without any repercussions because he's his own boss.


I don't respect his conviction if that conviction is built on twisted facts, misconceptions, and errors. The ends do not justify the means. If his convictions were true then I'd respect that.


Well, I guess that's one good that comes out of it, lol.


Interesting and provocative? Certainly. Are they true? Probably not.

NumberOneSon

give me some examples of what he's said being false?

then surely you give a single example-- just one-- im waiting


goes to show how much you really know-- it has been ruled in court that he press does NOT have to report the truth-- retractions and corrections are the norm but will only occur if you hold their feet to the fire

Tenkay and Sunofone

I have at least ten examples I can give you concerning the issues I have with Jones scholastic intergrity

However I"m having serious issues with my computer at the moment (for some reason my keyboard is not allowing me to use a number of punctions and number keys and my mouse is also making it extremely hard for me to navigate through Word documents which is where all of the information I"ve gathered is

Whenever I get this annoying situation with my computer straightened out I"ll be more than happy to lay out my case against Jones

If that doesn"t happen soon then I"ll just have to borrow my wifes computer

NumberOneSon

As promised, here's my quick list of Alex Jones claims that are not facts.

1.) Jones’ Claim from “Order of Death” video)“Leaders from around the world, heads of industry, academia, the media, Hollywood travel there to engage in bizarre, ancient, Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon, mystery religion ceremonies….at least that was the rumors.”

Truth:
There is no discernable connection between the Grove ceremony and “ancient, Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon, mystery religion ceremonies”, except in the minds of people who think like Alex Jones. I’ve taken the time to examine the texts of Luciferian initiation ceremonies and a Satanic rite of Excorcism (since the Cremation of Care is really more of an exorcism than anything else), and the Cremation ceremony doesn’t borrow any discernable aspects from Satanism that I know of. I’ve read a lot of information on Canaanite and Babylonian religions, and there is nothing in the Cremation ceremony that I can identify as being uniquely Canaanite or Babylonian. I don’t believe Alex Jones could identify them either; he’s simply parroting the ideas Tex Marrs gave him.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Cremation of Care is a funeral and quasi-exorcism, not a mock sacrifice. The transcript of the Cremation makes this brutally clear. People like Alex Jones want you to believe it is a sacrifice so they can loosely tie it to the human sacrifices of Canaan and Babylon, but the priest in Jones’ video makes it quite clear at the beginning of the ceremony: “Dull Care is slain. His body has been brought yonder to our funeral pyre to the joyous singings of a funeral march; Our funeral pyre awaits the corpse of Care”. A funeral pyre for a dead body is nothing at all like a human sacrifice to an owl god.


2.) Jones Claim from www.geocities.com/bohemiangrovecult/
In his film, Jones said he can make out a bound child begging for its life and that he heard screams. "Those aren't rumors anymore," he said.

Truth (from Jones’ own video documentary):“Many researchers of the global elite believe real sacrifices are going on at the grove. When I (Alex Jones) filmed the ceremony in 2000 I saw no evidence of this. It looked like an effigy, and the druid priests were easily able to pick it up and take it up the steps to the platform.” So either the source is misquoting Jones, or else he is contradicting himself.


3.)Jones quoted on the Jesus-is-Savior website:“The body begged for its life, over a speaker system. They refused it mercy. They took it up onto the altar. The "great owl" told them to burn the body (which they called "dull care,") which looks like a human wrapped up in black cloth. Right above the altar there was a large stone lamp that was burning that they call the "eternal flame." The high priest took an unlit torch and lit his torch with this flame.”

“The body again begged for mercy. The high priest then walked down (with some difficulty, because this high priest was so old, he could hardly even walk), and lit the pyre on fire. He began to say that he would read the signs in the remains, a deep occult tradition. This is not the Hollywood devil with red pajamas – this is the real deal, Babylon mystery religion-style.”

Truth:
When you watch the video or read the transcript of the ceremony you’ll see that the spirit of Care does neither of those things; Care laughs at the priests at one point, calling them “fools” numerous times, but he never begs for mercy or for his life. The spirit even boasts that they cannot slay him (does this sound like a poor, helpless "victim" to you?). For Jones to say the body “begged” for its life or for mercy, despite having the video in his own personal possession, is a clear indication that he is willing to twist the truth for the sake of his agenda.

For your convenience, I will provide a link to the transcript of the Cremation ceremony taken from Jones’ video...try finding any place in the script where Care pleads for his life or begs for mercy: www.bookrags.com/wiki/Cremation_of_Care


4.) Jones Claim from documentary:
“Many of the clubs original annuls, dating back to before the turn of the century, admit that local artists, writers, newspapermen, you name it, wanted a place away from the so called “backwardness” of the West Coast, the Judea-Christian ethic. They found that place about an hour and a half away from San Francisco, outside of the tiny town of Monte Rio.

Truth:
This is pure nonsense. Mike Hanson, the person who did Jones' research for him and studied the club's "original annuls", came to no such conclusion in his book about the Club. The Bohemian Club was one of several hundred private social clubs in San Francisco created in the late 1800's, and the reason for the Club's creation and subsequent annual encampments was a desire to creat social cohesion among peers and to celebrate artistic innovation in the West, a region that the Bohemians felt was devoid of any established culture, unlike the East Coast and Europe.

Jones' idea, that the West Coast during the Gold Rush was rooted in the "Judea-Christian ethic" is laughable from a historical perspective, and the notion that the Grove was picked as a getaway from the "Judea-Christian ethic" just serves to expose his ignorance on the subject matter.


5.) Jones Claim from “Dark Secrets Inside the Bohemian Grove”
“Historical records are clear from major universities, the Manhattan Project was planned, instituted, and run from the Bohemian Club - all of this going on in an atmosphere of bizarre revelry.”

Truth:
The project began in 1941. It was originally headquartered in Manhattan. There were project conferences in June 1942 at the University of Berkley in California (the project head worked at Berkley). The conferences in the summer of 1942 provided the detailed theoretical basis for the design of the atomic bomb. The Bohemian Grove meeting was held in September of 1942, and included the president of Harvard and representatives of Standard Oil and General Electric, among the many military officials in attendance. The 2-week encampment that includes the gathering of social elites and the Cremation of Care ceremony is always held in July. So that means the Bohemian project meeting was held two months after the “bizarre revelry” of the encampment had come and gone.


6.) Jones Claim from “Dark Secrets Inside the Bohemian Grove”
“They (the Spy Magazine writers) talk about the incredible security surrounding the Grove.”

Truth:
The writer of the Spy Magazine article, Philip Weiss said, “… but it turned out that Grove security isn't quite what it's reputed to be. The sociologists who had studied the place were right; there was no real security”. Equipped only with “conservative recreational gear”, a drink, and a newspaper, Weiss was able to come and go as he pleased over the course of 7 days, “openly trespassing in what is regarded as an impermeable enclave and which the press routinely refers to as a heavily guarded area”. No barbed wire. No electronic monitoring devices. No patrolling helicopters; only a “daunting” Grove sheriff with a “set of checkpoints like the Berlin Wall”. But other than the checkpoints, Mr. Weiss’ assessment of Grove security was that there really was no real security….nothing that a reporter dressed in PermaPrest khakis couldn’t get past.


7.) Jones Claim from “Dark Secrets Inside the Bohemian Grove”
“Here’s the shrine of their devil owl; which they even admit has its roots in like, Babylon, and the Druids, (indecipherable), and everything else. So all over the world, this weird owl shows up. In some cultures they’ve thrown children inside the bowls of this burning owl. That’s historical; we’ve all read the bible about throwing children to idols.”

Truth:
The Bohemian Club has never admitted to borrowing aspects of Babylonian religions for the Cremation of Care ceremony. They have readily admitted that the ceremony was drawn from aspects of Druidism, Christian rites, the Book of Common Prayers, Shakespearean dramas, and 19th Century lodge rites, but not Babylonian religions. There is no historical record that I have found directly linking the symbol of the owl to human sacrifice, let alone Moloch and child sacrifice. There are no known cultures that have thrown children inside the bowls of a burning owl. The Druids sometimes built wicker figures filled with sacrificial animals - sometimes human sacrifices – and burned the offerings alive, but I have found no evidence that these “wicker-men” were crafted in the forms of owls. The Druid god of sacrifice was Taranus, and he was never depicted as an owl. The Cremation of Care does not even take place in the bowels of the owl - the alter is separate from the statue. It may be historical that children were sacrificed to idols, but owl symbols had no part in it.


8.) Jones Claim from “Dark Secrets Inside the Bohemian Grove”:
“Texe Marrs has written literally dozens of books on the occult.”

Truth:
From 1987 to the time Jones made this claim, Texe Marrs had written 8 books on the occult, virtually all of them self-published and with no scholarly accreditation. Before 1987, Marrs wrote books about naming pets, careers in computers, military service, and robotics technology in the mid-80’s. Marrs is a really just a self-styled “expert”.


9.) Jones Claim from Infowars:“Participants openly worshiped the owl. It appeared that low-level Acolytes were dressed in black and red robes, with higher-level priests in combinations of gold, silver and red. The high priest in silver and red robes repeatedly worshiped the owl, which he said was a symbol of Babylon and Tyre.”

Truth:The video is quite clear; the priest was not talking about the owl when he mentioned Babylon and Tyre. To quote the priest, “Follow the memories of yesterday, and seal the gates of sorrow. It is a dream, and yet, not all a dream. Dull Care in all of his works harbored it. As vanished Babylon and goodly Tyre, so shall they (Care’s works) also vanish. But the wilding rose blows on the broken battlements of Tyre. And moss rends the stones of Babylon. For beauty is eternal, and we bow to beauty everlasting”. ‘Beauty everlasting’ is not the Owl of Bohemia; he’s referring to “Great Nature, refuge of the weary heart”, so the owl is not even mentioned in this part of the speech. Tyre and Babylon were used to symbolize the vanishing of the works of Dull Care, and had nothing to do with the Bohemian Owl. It is clear from the transcript that the priest was not describing the owl as a symbol of Babylon and Tyre.


10.) Jones Claim: “The owl worldwide has been used as a symbol of the god of death, misfortune and human sacrifice. From Babylon to the ancient Druids the owl god has tasted its share of human blood.”

Truth:
In many cultures the owl has certainly been associated with death and misfortune (Sumeria/Lilith; Native tribes/death omens). However, some cultures associated the bird with fertility (Greece), or prophetic wisdom (Rome), or considered it a messenger of the gods (Japan), and other positive things, so the negative outlook on owls is hardly universal. Having looked at owl mythology in over 70 cultures (both ancient and contemporary) I was unable to find even one nation that used the owl as a symbol of human sacrifice, even in cultures where sacrifices had previously been performed. And neither Babylon nor the Celtic Druids used the image of the owl in their sacrifices. Babylon’s god of sacrifice was never associated with owl imagery. However, owl amulets were given to Babylonian women in order to protect them during childbirth, but the amulet was supposed to preserve the lives of the mother and child, not harm them. As mentioned before, the Druid god of sacrifice was Taranus, but he was never associated with owl imagery either. Celts considered owls to be signs of the underworld, but not human sacrifice.


11.) Jones Claim from “Dark Secrets of the Bohemian Grove”:
“The story (in the 1989 Spy Magazine article) was clearly a shill meant to misdirect the intensifying media coverage the Grove was getting in the late 1980’s. The writer’s spin is obvious.”

Truth:
Spy magazine was definitely not a publication that had any interest in protecting the “elite”. In fact, Spy was known for printing stories that exposed and humiliated the rich and powerful of the US, men who just happen to be current Grove members. For instance, Spy ran the only serious investigative story on Bush Sr.’s alleged affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald. Spy also ran an article on Bill Clinton called “The First 100 Lies” during his initial year in office. Spy even printed a picture of the Nazi membership card owned by Arnold Swarzenagger’s Father. In fact, the magazine’s controversial stories actually drove away many of their advertisers – this was definitely not a soft pitch publication. It is also important to note that the writer, Philip Weiss, was not invited to the Grove to write the story; he secretly infiltrated the Grove just like Jones did, and was willing to risk fines and possible imprisonment if caught trespassing.

Now, Alex Jones had no reservations relying on the Spy magazine article to bolster the claim he made in one of his documentaries, saying that “sexual orgies and bizarre rituals” took place at the Grove. But yet, he’ll make an about face and accuse the same article of being a “spin” piece for the Bohemian Club? Why would Spy article provide evidence of “sexual orgies and bizarre rituals” and yet try to be a “spin” piece for the Club at the same time? That just doesn’t make sense. On the contrary, Jones’ spin is obvious.


12.) Jones’ Claim from documentary:
“Before 2000, and our successful penetration of the Grove, the mainstream media denied that rituals were indeed taking place there.”

Truth:
The “mainstream media” never denied that rituals took place during the 2-week encampment. Before 2000, there was plenty of documentation available showing that Grove members participated in the Cremation of Care ceremony. As far back as 1899, the New York Times wrote two articles about the ceremony and how impressive it was. There are pictures of the ceremony dating all the way back to the early 1900’s that confirm this, and the Bohemian Club has never denied that the ceremony occurs. The San Francisco Chronicle ran over 400 stories about the Club from 1900-1915. Up until the 1930's, local papers carried regular announcements of the events going on there and who was in attendance each year.

In the modern era, ABC World News Tonight did a story on the Grove back in 1981, and Dr. Domhoff spoke quite openly about the Cremation of Care ceremony; the burning of Dull Care, the giant owl, etc. You can still watch it on YouTube. Jones even admits that the 1989 “spin” piece from Spy magazine contains a photo of the ceremony released by the Grove. So no one in the media could possibly deny the Cremation of Care ritual. Jones claims the San Francisco Chronicle “refused” to report on the grove until Jones’ infiltration, but not reporting something is not the same thing as denying that it took place. Jones wrongly confuses lack of prior interest with denial; the two are not the same.


13.) Jones Claim from documentary:
“We can now confirm that the owl is metal with a stone facing.”

Truth:
The owl is made out of plaster and concrete, not metal or stone (source: Peter Philips and "Kyle" the informant)


14.) Jones Claim from Infowars:
“This pyramid at the Louvre, commissioned by Francois "the Sphinx" Mitterand is made out of 666 panes of glass.”

Truth:
The Louvre pyramid contains more than 666 panes of glass. There are at least 673 panes (some calculations have estimated even higher numbers).

NumberOneSon

The cremation of care IS a mock human sacrifice. The ritual includes the victoms screams as it is lit on fire, dead people (as in a funeral) don't scream. Its also the point in the ritual where they "do away" with care, this doesn't make sense in context of an allready deceased offering either. I would have to argue, human scarfice, mock or not, is worthy of being called satanic. Is it a Canaanite or Babylonian ritual? I don't really know but in my oppinion its origins don't make or break the case. Its also worth pointing out that the effigy is burned in front of the owl in the traditional ritualistic method of making an offering.



I think you have just misunderstood his statements. He has never claimed to have witnessed an actual sacrfice at the grove. I believe the "rumors" he is confirming is that there is a ritual that includes the screams of the victom. There is other evidence he uses to support his argument that the victom is ment to represent a child (even if its just symbolicaly as the effigies are the size of an adult). Personaly, I don't remember him saying it was a "bound child" in the film.



So Jones is responisble for everyone who quotes him? If there is a discrepancy here, its is Jones fault or the fault of the Jesus-is-Savior website? All of Jones work is archived on his sites. I find it very strange that to agrue your case about Jones, you choose to use sources other than his own. The main dispute here seems to be if the victom "begged" for its life or not. Honestly, I see little relevence in this detail. As for care saying they cannot slay him, this agian points to a mock sacrifice. If care was allready dead as you argue, why would it say they cannot kill him? I also fail to see the relevence of the victom being "helpless" or not. Its a ritual, the strenght or will of care is symbolic and does not dispute the ritual procession itself.




I am a bit confused here as you seem to be splitting hairs. Being "devoid of any established culture" would by definition included "the Judea-Christian ethic". I think you are expanding this in your mind to mean it was a club that was actively anti-christian. I don't understand how you can argue that it was created to avoid ANY established culture, yet claim the Judea-Christian ethic was not a part of that which they wished to escape.



What Jones actualy says in Dark Secrets, is that the "clubs own annals" say the Manhattan Project was first dreamt up there. His claim is only that the clubs annals take credit for the project being conceptualize at the grove, not "planned, insituted or run as you claim. The problem with your dates is that they have no weight on his claim since most of what you accredite to those claims isn't true. Its possible the idea of the Manhattan project was first thought of at the grove in 1941 or even before. It then wasn't untill 1942 that the plans actualy took shaped and were put to implementation.





Got a source? If I remember correctly Jones said the Spy magazine piece down played the activities at the grove. Why would they talk about the "incredible security" if its all just fun and games? I do remember Jones making mention of a club member saying the grove had really good security but I don't think it was in context of the Spy article.



It seems like you have allready gone over this. The members of the grove have a mock human sacrfice as an offering to a owl staute. Is this EXACTLY the ritual once used to make offerings to Moloch? No. However are all the elements there? I would say yes. They sacrificed to a bull, the grove does to an owl. I think if I were to go around burning the star of david on peoples lawns someone might say I was preforming a racist act taken from the rites of the KKK. What you are overlooking here is that the grove in fact does admit to getting elements of the cremation of care ritual from other ancient rituals.

The fact remains it is a mock human sacrifice. Somehow I don't really trust the people who secretly meet each year to do this to be forthright in explaining the origins of their activities.



Alex Jones talks about alot more than Bohemian grove, I get the feeling its all you are familure with. I have no idea how meny books tex marrs has written but I do think Alex Jones understanding of the occult is much broader than yours. When it comes right down to it, so what if he squeezed "dozens" out of 8? Do you have any idea how often the main stream media digs up people they call "experts" to support a case? Seriously, considering the vast amount to claims Jones makes on a daily basis the best you have come up with is largely just nit-picking at the details.




They are burning a human effigy as an offering to an owl statue and you don't think they are worshiping it?



You are really hung up on the cremation of care not being Babylonian eh? So the owl is in fact a common symbol of death and misfortune and the members of the grove offer a mock human sacrfice to a giant stone owl. But none of that matters because its not Babylonian? Well, if you haven't figured it out allready, Mr Jones sees a connection between the owl of bohemian and the babylonian rituals. I suggets you call him during his show (people who disagree with him go to the head of the line) and call him out on it. To me it makes little differance. The grove admits that they took elements of the ritual from the rituals of old, and they burn a human effigy as an offering to a giant owl statue. It doesn't make any differance to me where they got these elements from becuase it doesn't change what they are doing.



I think you fail to understand how it works, if accused to a crime you are guilty of, its sometimes best to admit to a lesser charge. As for spy magazine being a publication that "outs" high profile people, so what? The mainstream media does to. Its more of who its exposed and why. As for their piece on Swarzenagger, he pretty much openly admits he admires the nazis. Just a couple of weeks ago he willingly posed for the cover of time magazine wearing a nazi belt buckle.

Alex Jone's point is that while Spy was at least talking about the grove, they were not doing it in a mannor that would be taken seriously. Just because its a white wash, doesn't mean there isnt relevent information for those in the know.



Lack of prior interest? Heads of state and the finacial elite attend the grove. Its of interest when one such person does almost anything. Yet when they all get together for a mysterious 2 week encampment you think everyone loses interest?? He didn't claim it never gets mentioned, but by in large the mainstream media did denie that the members of the grove were having mock human sacrfices. Some even denied the existance of the grove altogether. Heck every time the president goes to camp david we hear about it. But how meny times in the last 50 years, before alex jones snuck in, did the media mention the gatherings at the grove?



OMG HE LIED ABOUT THE MATERIAL THE OWL WAS MADE OF lol! I knew what it was made of and I think I myself allready falsely said in this post it was made of stone.

Since you are so wrapped up in these insignificant details - I am sure there is metal used in the construction. Most concrete structure are built on a wire frame of sorts. Viewing the video, there seems to be evidence of this from the internal views of the statue, I guess its your source who lies now lol. And what is concrete? A cement and "stone" mixture. How any of this makes any differance is beyond me.



Wow, since I am sure Jones didn't count them himself, I guess you are saying no one should use other peoples work. Since you have done so your self in your ripping expose, some of which has been wrong, please go back and only sight things you have direct first hand physical knowledge of.

Honestly, considering the wide range of topics Jones talks about on a daily basis, its not to your credit that you are here splitting hairs on the details like what a owl statue is made of.

When it comes right down to it he is as accurate if not more accurate in his reporting than most main stream reporters who work for multi million dollar corporations. If you want to say he is a liar because he cant tell from looking at a video if something is concrete that is made to look like stone or is actualy made of stone, then so be it.

Its ok if the BBC reports tower 7 collapsing a half hour before it did (while actualy filming tower 7!!!) but if alex jones can't pin point what something is made of from a video, then he is a liar.

I think you need to nit pick the details because the broader picture is to scary.

el midgetron, earlier in the thread, Tenkay stated that what Jones says are facts. I responded by saying that I had fact-checked a number of the claims in Alex Jones’ documentaries and web articles, and had seen that a lot of the things he says are not facts. Tenkay wanted some examples. Sunofone challenged me to provide even one example of false statements or assumptions given by Jones. So in return, I gave 13 examples of false statements, assumptions, and exaggerations made by Jones just about the Bohemian Grove. That is the context behind the post. Whether you feel I’m “nitpicking” or “splitting hairs” concerning some of Jones’ statements is irrelevant to this discussion; what counts is if his statements are true or not, and that’s what I focused on in my post.

el midgetron's QUOTE: The cremation of care IS a mock human sacrifice. END QUOTE
You can continue to repeat this false mantra if you want, but the fact of the matter is such a conclusion cannot be gleaned from the actual ceremony, itself. The Cremation ceremony is a funeral and a “banning” (ie: exorcism) of a “mocking spirit”. Which part of “cremation” and “Our funeral pyre awaits the corpse of Care” aren’t you comprehending? Jones’ calls the cremation a “mock human sacrifice” because it suites his “Global elites are up to no good” worldview, not because of actual video evidence.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: The ritual includes the victoms screams as it is lit on fire, dead people (as in a funeral) don't scream. END QUOTE
During the ceremony, Dull Care is a disembodied spirit; he’s not yelling because of the fire. The High Priest burns the body so that the spirit of Care will not receive “forgiveness or the restful grave”. The spirit is not in the body during the ceremony; his voice comes from a dead tree illuminated in the hillside over loudspeakers. The Boho's fellowship and the burning of Care’s effigy simply serve to ban his Spirit from the Grove “for a space”, after which when the attendees return to the marketplace he will be waiting for them again to "destroy" them.

Dead people don’t scream, but a spirit being exorcised from the Grove would.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Its also the point in the ritual where they "do away" with care, this doesn't make sense in context of an allready deceased offering either. END QUOTE
Yes it does, because the act of burning the effigy serves to “ban” the spirit of Dull Care from the Grove. Burning the effigy exorcises the “mocking spirit” until they return to the workplace. Again, the High Priest burns the body so that the spirit of Care will not receive “forgiveness or the restful grave”. It’s all right there in the transcript if you would bother to read it without filtering it through your preconceptions first.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I would have to argue, human scarfice, mock or not, is worthy of being called satanic. QUOTE
And if the Cremation ceremony was a mock human sacrifice I would probably agree with you. But it isn’t, so I don’t. A cremation, by definition, requires a corpse, not a living person.

Were you aware that in Denmark many Danes celebrate Midsummer by building bonfires that were once used to ward off evil spirits? And since the early 1900’s, they sometimes burn witch effigies on those fires in order to banish their cares and worries? So are the Danes “satanic” because of their annual holiday tradition?

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Is it a Canaanite or Babylonian ritual? I don't really know but in my oppinion its origins don't make or break the case. END QUOTE
It makes or breaks Jones’ case, because he’s the one who perpetuates it. If the ritual isn’t distinctly Canaanite or Babylonian then he should not be claiming that it is. Again, the whole point of my earlier post was to produce examples of “false statements, assumptions, and exaggerations”, and this is certainly one of them. Now you may not know whether or not the ceremony is “Canaanite or Babylonian”, but I’ve taken the time to read enough about “ancient, Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon, mystery religion ceremonies” in order to conclude that Jones is flat out wrong on this one.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Its also worth pointing out that the effigy is burned in front of the owl in the traditional ritualistic method of making an offering. END QUOTE
But the Jones video and the transcript from the video shows quite clearly that no offering is actually made to the owl or to any diety. As the transcript shows, the effigy is burned for the purpose of keeping Dull Care from receiving “forgiveness or the restful grave” - it is not meant as an offering. So “traditional ritualistic methods” have no bearing in this particular case; the video itself is proof that no offering takes place.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I think you have just misunderstood his statements. He has never claimed to have witnessed an actual sacrfice at the grove. END QUOTE
No, I’m not misunderstanding him. I said quite clearly - either the source is misquoting Jones, or else he is contradicting himself.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I believe the "rumors" he is confirming is that there is a ritual that includes the screams of the victom. END QUOTE
I’ve read pretty much every newspaper, magazine article, and newsletter that were used as the sources for the “rumors”, and not one of them contains anything about the “screams of victims”. All the rumors centered on the idea of human sacrifice, period. So what you “believe” in this case isn’t based on actual evidence, but on your desire to defend Jones.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: There is other evidence he uses to support his argument that the victom is ment to represent a child (even if its just symbolicaly as the effigies are the size of an adult). Personaly, I don't remember him saying it was a "bound child" in the film. END QUOTE
I’ll tell you exactly what his “evidence” is; the only evidence is found in the year 2000 Cremation program, and the program itself is a drawing, not an actual picture. And the idea that the drawing is even supposed to represent a child’s skeletal remains is based solely on Jones’ word; apparently, he showed the drawing to some doctors who supposedly told him they thought the skeleton in the drawing was the anatomical size of a baby or small child. And you’re right; Jones’ Order of Death video shows actual photo stills of the real effigies on the altar, and all of them are much larger than any baby or child’s body, especially the wire-framed effigy on the alter.

So the only “effigy=child” evidence is based entirely on Jones’ word about some unknown doctors who gave their personal opinion about artwork drawn on a single version of the Club’s annual program. There certainly is no evidence of “effigy=child” in Alex Jones’ video, in the transcript, or from anything that can be gleaned from the Bohemian Club’s records. But that’s the kind of “evidence” I expect from Jones.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: So Jones is responisble for everyone who quotes him? If there is a discrepancy here, its is Jones fault or the fault of the Jesus-is-Savior website? All of Jones work is archived on his sites. I find it very strange that to agrue your case about Jones, you choose to use sources other than his own. END QUOTE
Twelve out of the 14 examples in my previous post listed either Infowars or Jones’ documentaries as the sources for the quotes. Only two quotes came from sources "other than his own".

But that’s fine, since you want to make my source the issue, I’ll settle the question of authenticity by posting the same article from Jones’ site to show that they are, in fact, his words. You can find the quotes near the end of the interview: source

el midgetron’s QUOTE: The main dispute here seems to be if the victom "begged" for its life or not. Honestly, I see little relevence in this detail. END QUOTE
Ok, so in a post where I try to provide examples of Alex Jones’ tendency to stretch the truth and give false statements, you somehow don’t see the “relevance” of Jones fabricating an entire portion of the ceremony? Well, here’s the relevance, midgetron; Tenkay and Sunofone wanted examples of Jones’ “facts” not really being facts, and the one I provided was a prime example. That’s the relevance.

But your right, midgetron; making up stuff out of whole cloth, like the victim “begging for mercy”, is just so irrelevant to a truth-seeker like Alex Jones. Like they say, the ends justify the means, right? I mean, if you can’t find a victim in the actual Cremation script, than just pencil one in yourself. And those minor, added details will be of so little relevance that Jesus-Is-Savior.com will just happen to cut that particular portion of the article and paste it on their website as “evidence” for Satanic activities going on at the Grove. And really, I can’t think of any difference between depicting Care as a bound body screaming in pain, begging for mercy, and depicting him as he is shown in the video, a demonic, “mocking spirit” that laughs at the Boho’s, calls them fools, and waits in the marketplace to destroy them. No sir, I can’t think of one difference.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: As for care
If care was allready dead as you argue, why would it say they cannot kill him? END QUOTE
I’m not arguing anything - I’m simply repeating what the Cremation script plainly says. Their fellowship slays him (which is why they bear his “corpse” to the funeral pyre), but Dull Care’s spirit remains. So in order to ban the spirit they burn the effigy. The ceremony is a funeral and an exorcism. It’s that simple.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I also fail to see the relevence of the victom being "helpless" or not. Its a ritual, the strenght or will of care is symbolic and does not dispute the ritual procession itself. END QUOTE
The relevance of Jones painting Care as a helpless victim begging for it’s life (as opposed to the video’s representation of a malevolent spirit that mocks the attendants and seeks to destroy them) sells the false notion that the ceremony is a mock human sacrifice, rather than a mock exorcism.

If you read the Jones’ account, and then go back and read the actual Cremation transcript, you will be left with two entirely different impressions of the same ceremony. And that’s the relevance, midgetron; Jones intentionally misrepresented what went on in the video in order to lead people into believing the cremation represented a mock human sacrifice. And as someone who is interested in exposing falsehoods and upholding the truth, you shouldn’t be so willing to diminish what Jones has done.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I am a bit confused here as you seem to be splitting hairs. Being "devoid of any established culture" would by definition included "the Judea-Christian ethic". END QUOTE
You’re misunderstanding a few things; Jones claimed that the Bohemians traveled to the Grove in order to get away from the Judea-Christian ethic of the West Coast. The point of my post was to show that the Bohemians did not travel to the Grove to get away from the Judea-Christan ethic (Alex Jones researcher, Mike Hanson, certainly did not come to that conclusion), and that they wouldn’t have needed to do so because the Judea-Christian ethic was not the established culture on the West Coast in the late 1800’s. This, again, is just another case of Alex Jones creating his own alternate version of history.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I think you are expanding this in your mind to mean it was a club that was actively anti-christian. END QUOTE
In my mind, Jones thinks the Grove was picked to be a getaway from the "Judea-Christian ethic". In fact, immediately after he stated the part about the Boho’s getting away from the Judea-Christian ethic, Jones says their annuls admitted an obsession with the occult and with Druid rituals, and that among the great Redwood trees they “revived ancient ceremonies” that had their roots in Babylon.

So it seems to me that Jones certainly wants viewers to conclude that the Boho’s desired to get away from the Judea-Christian ethic so that they could practice things in private that went against the Judea/Christian ethic, like occult activities. I don’t think that is stretch in the least. Jones certainly wants viewers to think that the club was created in order to participate in anti-Judea/Christian activities like Babylonian ceremonies and Druid rituals.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I don't understand how you can argue that it was created to avoid ANY established culture, yet claim the Judea-Christian ethic was not a part of that which they wished to escape. END QUOTE
Read what I said again; I wasn’t arguing that the club was created to avoid any established culture (that was Jones’ argument); I was arguing that their was no established culture for them to avoid in the first place, thus showing that Jones’ viewpoint was not based on actual history. The Bohemian Club was created in order to cultivate culture, not avoid preexisting ones, and they certainly were not trying to get away from the Judea-Christian ethic.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: What Jones actualy says in Dark Secrets, is that the "clubs own annals" say the Manhattan Project was first dreamt up there. His claim is only that the clubs annals take credit for the project being conceptualize at the grove, not "planned, insituted or run as you claim. END QUOTE
You are incorrect. The Jones quote I gave was taken verbatim from the Dark Secrets video, beginning at 9 minutes and 43 seconds into the documentary. The entire quote I posted was accurate. Here's the video, see for yourself: Video

el midgetron’s QUOTE: The problem with your dates is that they have no weight on his claim since most of what you accredite to those claims isn't true. Its possible the idea of the Manhattan project was first thought of at the grove in 1941 or even before. It then wasn't untill 1942 that the plans actualy took shaped and were put to implementation. END QUOTE
Well, I just gave you proof that what I “accredit” to Jones’ quote was in fact correct, so my dates have plenty of weight. Again, the point was to show that Jones exaggerated the truth. It is historical fact that a Manhattan Project meeting took place at the Grove in September of 1942, but the Midsummer encampment and its “bizarre revelry” had already been over for almost 2 months. Again, just more misinformation and exaggeration from Alex Jones....which was exactly the point of my earlier post.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Got a source? If I remember correctly Jones said the Spy magazine piece down played the activities at the grove. END QUOTE
A source? You got it: source. The quotes are located about a fourth of the way down the page.

The Spy piece does not “play down” the activities at the Grove. Jones just says that because the Spy writer doesn’t come to the conclusion that the Bohemian Club is a Satanic cabal. So despite the article being one of the most detailed accounts of the encampment ever printed (the writer, Philip Weiss, spent 60 hours at the encampment over the course of 7 days), Jones labels it a “shill” and “spin” piece. I guess name calling is just Jones’ way of dealing with those who don’t share his conclusions.

Jones said the Spy magazine piece down played the activities at the Grove, but he certainly did not say the piece downplayed the security at the grove, and that was the reason I dealt with Jones’ #6 claim.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Why would they talk about the "incredible security" if its all just fun and games? END QUOTE
Because as Weiss said, it had been “rumored” (again, just more false rumors about the Grove) that the Bohemian Grove was “an impermeable enclave” and a “heavily guarded area”. Weiss was amazed by just how easy it was to get in. The reason he would talk about the security was because he expected a gathering of former presidents, industry elites, top military brass, and foreign dignitaries to have incredibly tight security in place, but the fact is there wasn’t.

So Jones sited the Spy magazine piece, claiming the writers “talk about the incredible security surrounding the Grove”, when in fact the article says there “was no real security”. Once again, Jones is caught in a lie. And the reason he lied is because painting the Bohemian’s security as “incredible” serves to make his infiltration of the Grove seem like a much more daring feat then it actually was. And lying about the "incredible" security also serves to make the Grove seem more like the highly secret, NWO cabal that Jones' wants it to be.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I do remember Jones making mention of a club member saying the grove had really good security but I don't think it was in context of the Spy article. END QUOTE
The Jones quote I gave was specifically dealing with the context of the Spy article. Whatever security the Grove had in place, it wasn’t good enough that a Texas radio-show host couldn’t put on preppy clothes and sneak inside.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: It seems like you have allready gone over this. The members of the grove have a mock human sacrfice as an offering to a owl staute. Is this EXACTLY the ritual once used to make offerings to Moloch? No. However are all the elements there? I would say yes. They sacrificed to a bull, the grove does to an owl. I think if I were to go around burning the star of david on peoples lawns someone might say I was preforming a racist act taken from the rites of the KKK. What you are overlooking here is that the grove in fact does admit to getting elements of the cremation of care ritual from other ancient rituals. END QUOTE
Again, you miss the point. In my #7 quote, Alex Jones claimed the Club, itself, admitted that things like the owl shrine had it’s roots in Babylon. But the Club has never said such a thing. Alex Jones claimed some cultures threw children inside the bowls of a burning owl. No known culture has done such a thing. Alex Jones has claimed Moloch can be depicted as an owl. No known culture has ever done so. Alex Jones continues to embellish history whenever it serves his purpose, and my #7 quote was meant to highlight this.

Jones has said the Boho’s “revived ancient ceremonies”. Not simply “elements”, as you say, but ancient ceremonies.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: The fact remains it is a mock human sacrifice. Somehow I don't really trust the people who secretly meet each year to do this to be forthright in explaining the origins of their activities. END QUOTE
No, the facts within the actual ceremony itself reveal that it is a cremation and a banishing (ie; exorcism) of a mocking spirit. Only subjective agendas say it is a “mock human sacrifice”. The Cremation of Care has never been a secret. The annual encampment has never been a secret. Heck, you can go online and buy any number of the Bohemian Club’s original annals (if you’ve got a couple hundred dollars to throw around).

And just because you don’t trust the Bohemians doesn’t give people like Jones the right to make up the “origins” of the Boho’s activities on their own and pass it off as fact.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Alex Jones talks about alot more than Bohemian grove, I get the feeling its all you are familure with. END QUOTE
No, it's not all I'm familiar with. The Bohemian Grove just happens to be a topic I know a lot about.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I have no idea how meny books tex marrs has written but I do think Alex Jones understanding of the occult is much broader than yours. END QUOTE
Based on what I have seen of Jones’ “understanding”, I don’t believe so.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: When it comes right down to it, so what if he squeezed "dozens" out of 8? Do you have any idea how often the main stream media digs up people they call "experts" to support a case? Seriously, considering the vast amount to claims Jones makes on a daily basis the best you have come up with is largely just nit-picking at the details. END QUOTE
I will kindly remind you that the point of my earlier post was to show that Jones says a lot of things that are “false statements, assumptions, and exaggerations”. He grossly exaggerated the number of books Marrs had written in order to make his opinions seem more credible in the documentary. Stop trying to excuse what Jones did by bringingup the failings of other media; just recognize that what Jones did was wrong in this instance. Jones’ views should be able to stand on their own merit, without having to resort to stretching the truth and relying on falsehoods, no matter how slight you believe them to be. Do you agree?

el midgetron’s QUOTE: They are burning a human effigy as an offering to an owl statue and you don't think they are worshiping it? END QUOTE
The Jones’ video, itself, should be our proof, not what we “think”. Jones claims the “participants openly worshiped the owl”. So where in the video does he capture the Bohomian Grove participants actually worshipping the owl? And again, nowhere in the video is the effigy ever offered to the owl. Nothing in the ceremony transcript taken from the video intimates that the effigy is an offering or that the Boho’s worship the owl. It’s that simple.

I understand that in public the Boho’s would deny owl worship, but Jones’ video should have revealed the true devotion that was previously hidden from public knowledge. The fact of the matter is that the video revealed nothing new about the ceremony that hadn’t already been known or written about in newspapers, magazines, books, and TV news broadcasts over the last 100 years. Jones also claimed the high priest said the owl was a symbol of Babylon and Tyre, but as I clearly showed in the transcript, the reference was to Dull Care’s works, not to the owl. It’s this kind of lack of attention to detail that I find consistently throughout Jones’ work.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: You are really hung up on the cremation of care not being Babylonian eh? END QUOTE
I’m “hung up” on it because Alex Jones is. Simple as that.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: So the owl is in fact a common symbol of death and misfortune and the members of the grove offer a mock human sacrfice to a giant stone owl. But none of that matters because its not Babylonian? END QUOTE
I find it amazing that you are so willing to ignore the point; Alex Jones claimed, “From Babylon to the ancient Druids the owl god has tasted its share of human blood.” But the truth is Babylon did not sacrifice people to an owl god. The Druids did not sacrifice people to an owl god (the druid god of sacrifice was Taranus, and he was no owl). Anyone who has truly taken the time to research the religions of Babylon and the Druids would know this. Jones apparently has not.

Jones also stated the “owl worldwide has been used as a symbol of the god of death, misfortune and human sacrifice”. I pointed out that there are examples of the owl being used as a symbol of death and misfortune, but there has been no known culture that has used the owl as a symbol of human sacrifice. I also pointed out that the negative symbolism of the owl is not universal, and that some cultures, like Greece, used the owl to represent positive traits rather than negative ones. One of the positive traits the owl has been used to symbolize is wisdom - and lo and behold, in the Cremation of Care the Owl of Bohemia is referred to as the “Prince of all mortal wisdom”.

So in reality, the owl, especially in modern times, has been a common symbol of wisdom, and during the ceremony the owl is only appealed to for “council” in how to deal with the mocking spirit of Dull Care. It doesn’t matter how owls are used in other contexts; what matters is how the owl is used in this context, and in the context of the Cremation ceremony, the owl is used as a symbol of wisdom, not death or misfortune, let alone human sacrifice. Jones is wrong, plain and simple.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Well, if you haven't figured it out allready, Mr Jones sees a connection between the owl of bohemian and the babylonian rituals. END QUOTE
What I have figured out is that Mr. Jones sees what he wants to see. The connection he “sees” is paper thin and is not based on historical precedent, but on assumptions, exaggerations, and poor research. Alex Jones “sees” Babylon and the Druids having owl gods that they sacrificed to, but that claim is entirely false. Alex Jones “sees” cultures that have thrown children into the bowels of the burning owl, but that claim is entirely false.

And this is the same guy you think has such a “broad understanding” of the occult? Please.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I suggets you call him during his show (people who disagree with him go to the head of the line) and call him out on it. END QUOTE
I know his show is nationally syndicated, but the stations in my area do not get it. If you know that on a particular day he is going to be devoting a segment of his program to discuss the Bohemian Grove let me know - I would be quite willing to talk to him about these things.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: To me it makes little differance. The grove admits that they took elements of the ritual from the rituals of old, and they burn a human effigy as an offering to a giant owl statue. END QUOTE
No, the Bohemian Club does not admit to any of those things. The Club admits the ceremony derives from Druid rites, medieval Christian liturgy, the Book of Common Prayer, Shakespearean drama and nineteenth-century American lodge rites. Funny how people like Jones leave out the “Christian liturgy/Book of Common Prayer/Shakespeare/lodge rites” part. Funny, that (although I’m sure Jones would make something sinister out of the “lodge rites” part too).

el midgetron’s QUOTE: It doesn't make any differance to me where they got these elements from becuase it doesn't change what they are doing. END QUOTE
Of course it doesn’t make any difference to you, because at this point you are unwilling to critically examine the Cremation ceremony in any way that doesn’t fit into your preconceived viewpoint, no matter how many times I point out that the things you attribute to the ceremony (offerings to the owl, worship of the owl, etc) can not be gleaned from the video or ceremony transcript. No one worships the owl in the video, and yet you’ll continue to believe “yep, they are worshipping the owl”. No offering is made to the owl in the video, and yet you’ll still believe, “yep, the effigy is an offering to the owl statue”. You’ll just keep appealing to what you “see”, and you’ll keep justifying Jones lies and exaggerations simply because he champions a worldview that is similar to your own.

el midgetron’s QUOTE:
I think you fail to understand how it works, if accused to a crime you are guilty of, its sometimes best to admit to a lesser charge. As for spy magazine being a publication that "outs" high profile people, so what? The mainstream media does to. Its more of who its exposed and why. As for their piece on Swarzenagger, he pretty much openly admits he admires the nazis. Just a couple of weeks ago he willingly posed for the cover of time magazine wearing a nazi belt buckle.

Alex Jones’ point is that while Spy was at least talking about the grove, they were not doing it in a mannor that would be taken seriously. Just because its a white wash, doesn't mean there isnt relevent information for those in the know. END QUOTE
Alex Jones’ point was that the Spy article portrayed the Grove as it really is, which is as a rustic social retreat for the elite, and not in a manner that bolstered Jones’ “Satanic cabal” viewpoint. Philip Weiss wasn’t invited to the Grove; he snuck into the Grove just like Jones did, and was willing to risk the same fines and possible legal action as Jones would have faced if caught. That’s not something a reporter would risk in order to write a fluff piece. Weiss spent over 60 hours at the encampment over the course of 7 days; if he had discovered some dirt on the Grove he would have certainly printed it, just like Spy did with Bush Sr. Jones, with his paltry 4-hour Grove experience, simply chose to smear the Spy article’s credibility because it didn’t come to his conclusions.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Lack of prior interest? Heads of state and the finacial elite attend the grove. Its of interest when one such person does almost anything. Yet when they all get together for a mysterious 2 week encampment you think everyone loses interest?? END QUOTE
Yes, lack of prior interest. Jones claimed the San Francisco Chronicle “refused” to report on the grove until after Jones’ infiltration, but he either ignored the fact (or was clueless) that the San Francisco Chronicle was the same newspaper that printed over 400 stories about the Club and the Grove in the first half of the 20th Century. And who knows how many since? So the Chronicle was well aware of the Bohemian Grove and would not have been "refusing" to write the story out of denial.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: He didn't claim it never gets mentioned, but by in large the mainstream media did denie that the members of the grove were having mock human sacrfices. END QUOTE
Jones claimed the mainstream media denied that rituals (ie: the Cremation of Care) were taking place at the Grove. Now, if he had claimed the media denied mock human sacrifice then he’d be correct, and they would be right in denying it because the Cremation is not a mock human sacrifice. But that’s not what Jones said.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Some even denied the existance of the grove altogether. END QUOTEGreat, so you should have no problem providing me with the names of a few of these mainstream media outlets that have actually denied the existence of the Bohemian Grove. Give me their names, and I’ll make sure to steer clear of them as reliable news sources. And by “mainstream media” I’m not referring to conservative talk radio hosts getting pestered by obnoxious callers who habitually interrupt the program in order to warn everyone about the evils of the Bohemian Grove. I just wanted to clear that up.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Heck every time the president goes to camp david we hear about it. But how meny times in the last 50 years, before alex jones snuck in, did the media mention the gatherings at the grove? END QUOTE

Hmmmm….Let’s see, there was the ABC World News report. Parade Magazine. Maclean’s magazine. Mother Jones magazine. Newsweek magazine. Spy Magazine. The Washington Times newspaper. The Sacramento Bee newspaper. If you take away the 50 year limit, then the number jumps into the hundreds. And there have been at least two books written on the Bohemian Club as well. So there has been plenty of media coverage over the years.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: OMG HE LIED ABOUT THE MATERIAL THE OWL WAS MADE OF lol! I knew what it was made of and I think I myself allready falsely said in this post it was made of stone. END QUOTE
I just think it’s indicative of the kind of slap dash research that Jones puts into his claims. It’s sad that this man can’t even be trusted get the construction of the owl statue right, let alone all of the weightier issues he tries to tackle. Let’s see now, I spent all of two sentences on the matter, so obviously I didn’t think it was a huge issue. But it was on topic.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Since you are so wrapped up in these insignificant details - I am sure there is metal used in the construction. Most concrete structure are built on a wire frame of sorts. Viewing the video, there seems to be evidence of this from the internal views of the statue, I guess its your source who lies now lol. And what is concrete? A cement and "stone" mixture. END QUOTE
Now that’s the kind of meandering rationalization I expect from Alex Jones. Spoken like a true protégé, lol. After all, I always refer to concrete structures as stone buildings. Glad to see you do to.

And just to let you know, the one source I used is the same source who gave Alex Jones the recent video footage of the Grove that was used in the Order of Death video; "Kyle" the informant. He'd probably know know better than Jones since he spent the summer at the Grove and shot all the video from inside the statue. The other source was Peter Phillips, a socialogist who has visited the Grove and was interviewed by Mike Hanson for his book about the Grove.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: How any of this makes any differance is beyond me. END QUOTE
Tell you what, I’ll spell it out for you. Pointing out Alex Jones’ tendency to give inaccurate information, even about trivial matters, should encourage us to carefully examine his words so that we do not accidentally start believing things that aren’t true. You may think it’s hilarious that I would point out something as trivial as the panels of glass in the Louvre pyramid, but I find it sad that I’ve already seen Jones’ pyramid claim referred to on another forum that I frequent.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Wow, since I am sure Jones didn't count them himself, I guess you are saying no one should use other peoples work. Since you have done so your self in your ripping expose, some of which has been wrong, please go back and only sight things you have direct first hand physical knowledge. END QUOTE
Nope. What I’m saying is study to show yourself approved. Simple as that. Don’t just believe that “JONES facts are in fact, FACT”, as Tenkay so eloquently put it earlier in the thread. Test what he says before you believe it. That’s what I’m saying. Good advice, yes?

No, my post wasn't meant to be a ripping expose...just a brief look at some of the errors Jones has made and refuses to correct. And no, none of my statements that you thought were in error actually were. I made sure to point these things out over the course of this post.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Honestly, considering the wide range of topics Jones talks about on a daily basis, its not to your credit that you are here splitting hairs on the details like what a owl statue is made of. END QUOTE
LOL, I spent exactly two sentences on what the owl was made of, while the rest of my post was about 5 pages long.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: When it comes right down to it he is as accurate if not more accurate in his reporting than most main stream reporters who work for multi million dollar corporations. END QUOTE
Don’t be absurd. I pointed out 13 errors made by Jones just on the subject of the Bohemian Grove alone, and all you can do is make blind generalizations about main stream reporters. Stop trying to shift attention away from Jones and just deal with the fact that his accuracy concerning the Bohemian Grove is appalling. When it comes to Alex Jones, you’re starting to remind me of the furry, little quadruped you have in your signature.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: If you want to say he is a liar because he cant tell from looking at a video if something is concrete that is made to look like stone or is actualy made of stone, then so be it. END QUOTE
It's the accumulation of errors and false statements; the fabricated story about the body “begging for it’s life”, the Manhattan Project claims, the nonexistent “owl gods” of the Babylonians and Druids, the baseless claim that Moloch was sometimes symbolized as an owl, the appeals to historical records and Club history that turn out to be false, the distortions of the Spy magazine article, the exaggeration of Texe Marrs stable of occult books, the accusations of owl worship by the Bohemians, the distortion of the Cremation transcript concerning Tyre and Babylon, etc. It’s an accumulation of errors that either make Alex Jones an incredibly poor researcher whose conclusions should be highly suspect, or else he’s a man who blatantly throws truth to the wind as long as it provides ammunition against the Global elites and their policies.

el midgetron, let me tell you about what Alex Jones said about Helmut Schmidt and afterward I’d like to see you try to excuse Jones. He claimed on Infowars and in his Martial Law documentary that former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt wrote an autobiography called Men and Power: A Political Retrospective, and in the Martial Law video Jones unabashedly claimed that no where is the origin of the ancient Canaanite cult of child sacrifice more in evidence then in what Helmut Schmidt said in his autobiography. Jones then proceeded to divulge this shocking “evidence”; he claimed Schmidt wrote about how they have their own German groves where they do these, quote, “druidic rituals”, and that his favorite place to do the rituals is at Bohemian Grove. Now I’ve seen this claim adopted by other conspiracy sites and presented as fact as well, and I’ve seen posters on message boards point to the Schmidt claim as absolute proof of Druidic activity within world government - and there have even been a few posts on this forum about it.

But the problem is I have a copy of Helmut Schmidt’s “Men and Powers”, and I’ve read where he discussed the Bohemian Grove, and I can tell you with absolute certainly that Helmut Schmidt does not saying anything like what Jones attributed to him. There’s nothing about “German Groves”. There’s nothing about “Druidic rituals” or any rituals for that matter. Nothing in the Martial Law documentary that Jones said about Helmut Schmidt pertaining to the Bohemian Grove is true. Nothing. Now, you can’t simply write this off as an innocent mistake because Jones has Schmidt’s book; he went so far as to put the “druidic rituals” part in quotes, and he even put photo stills of the book in the Martial Law and Dark Secrets videos, complete with underlined passages and circled words in order to show just how thorough he had been in studying the book. But it comes as no surprise to me that none of the pages he highlighted in his videos contained the coveted references to “druidic rituals” and “German groves”, and that’s due to the simple fact that they DON’T EXIST.

So go ahead, el midgetron; try and tell me how Alex Jones could study Helmut Schmidt’s book in detail, claim that nowhere is origin of the Canaanite cult more in evidence than in Schmidt’s autobiography, quote Schmidt as discussing and performing “druidic rituals”, and then, having read the book, how could someone like myself come to any conclusion other than the obvious; that Alex Jones flat out lied, and now that lie has being consumed, regurgitated, and reproduced on websites and message boards throughout the internet, including this one.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: Its ok if the BBC reports tower 7 collapsing a half hour before it did (while actualy filming tower 7!!!) but if alex jones can't pin point what something is made of from a video, then he is a liar. END QUOTE
Neither example is “ok”. Jones is a liar if he makes up things that are not true, whether we’re talking about the make up of an owl statue, or the autobiography of a former German chancellor, or the depiction of a Canaanite deity. Doesn’t it sound reasonable to you that if Alex Jones can’t pin point what the owl is made of then he probably has a responsibility not to get in front of a camera and announce “we can now confirm that the owl is metal with a stone facing”? I mean, call me crazy, but I always thought that if you make up things that aren’t true that’s called lying. But hey, that’s just me.

el midgetron’s QUOTE: I think you need to nit pick the details because the broader picture is to scary. END QUOTE
But the big picture is always made up of tiny pieces, and if the pieces don’t fit then the puzzle doesn’t come together. If the facts surrounding Jones’ theories are wrong then his conclusions will be wrong too. And no, Jones’ “broader picture” doesn’t scare me in the least. I know it’s fashionable in conspiratorial circles to write off skeptics as being fearful of the big picture, but I assure you that is not the case.

NumberOneSon

you are lost in a world of fantasy #2 -- first off you claim to have studied ancient religions and claim that the ceremony has nothing in common with ancient religious cerimonies but you 100% wrong-- just google "lilith" and the links to ancient cannanite religions is pretty obvious or try "sa ma el"-- they are ritualizing the sacrifice of a child to lilith-- if you are looking for them to admit this imo it seems highly doubtful you will get what you want




your assumptions that everything alex witnessed is included in either the video or transcripts is ludicrous and an example of how desperate you are to trump up nonsense to support your fantasies-- the fact that all you can do is focus on exagerated semantics of an expose he did on the elites playground is proof that you cannot refute one iota of information concerning wtc'93,oklahoma,waco or 9/11 and speaks volumes on the integrity of the data-- dont let your fear of the truth cloud your judgement and you will emerge from you state of denial

NumberOneSon, the number of people in the media that could maintain the standards you expect of Jones, is zero. No one is 100% right 100% of the time. You make point of the material the owl statue is made of and the number of books Marss has writen, yet you claim to have writen a post "about 5 pages long". Considering the post you stated that in only began the second page of this topic, then by your standards, you are a "liar".



What you don't understand about the occult is that in occult symbolism there are layers of meaning. Not everything is as scripted or exposed on the surface. Call the ritual what you want, its done in the traditional method of making an offering, with the sacrifice being placed before the benefactor. Or in other words, the effigy is a burnt offering placed on an alter before the owl statue. Burnt offerings of human or animal are traditionaly, but not allways, made only after the offering has been killed. Just as Abraham was going to dispatch Isaac with a knife then burn his body as an offering to god. Burnt offerings symbolized the total dedication of the offering unto "God", being completely consumed by fire so that it was available for nothing else. Its also important to note that Druid funerary rites often included human sacrifice, with those killed to be burnt along with the deceased.

Even your explanation of the ritual being an "exorcism" falls short of removing the ritual from the obvious occult context. If its just an exorcism, why is the body (effigy) burned? Because its a funeral pyre? So, they are exorcising a dead body? Very interesting, perhaps you can provide some context for exocism being preformed on the dead by fire? As, I have never heard of it.

You say the cries of coming from the pyre are a spirit being exocised from a dead body. However, the emergence of the spirit here again clearly points to a scrificial offering beginning its accent to the heavens in the smoke. Which is the whole purpose behind burnt offerings.

I. The burnt-offering—Olah, or also Chalil (Deut 33:10; in Psalm 51:19 literally rendered 'whole burnt-offering).— derivation of the term Olah, as wholly 'ascending' unto God, indicates alike the mode of the sacrifice and its meaning.



That is some mighty ugly double think. So, they are burning the effigy to keep dull care from receiving forgiveness and rest in the grave. that part you understand. However, it contradicts it being a funeral pyre, as they were a show of respect which enabled the deceased to make the leap to the next existance. I don't see how you cannot make the connection between what they are hoping for (banning dull care), and the burnt offering by which asking for it. Thats what offerings are, requests for the favor of otherworldly forces. And its the offering that seals cares fate.

I am sorry but your view of the ritual makes no logical or theological sense. Its because you are not looking at the ritual in whole but only on surface explanations. Can you provide any context for a funeral rite that includes an exorcism of the dead body? You also need to explane what the role of the "effigy" is and why it is "dead" in the first place. It doesn't fit together because they are sperate explanations for seperate aspects of the ritual. However, in the context of a (mock) human sacrifice it all comes into focus as a textbook traditional burnt offering. The offering is killed (you say funeral rite) then burnt as an offering to keep care from resting (you say exorcism).

Lets just assume they are only doing what you say for a second. It doesn't bother you that the elite are preforimg ritualized funeral rites and exorcisms? I know, even though they call it a "ritual" and you have refered to the participants as "high priests" you can retreat to another surface explanation and say its all just meaningless theater.

Hey, Sunofone, long time no hear. Bet you’re hard at work on your responses to my #55 and #92 posts on the ol' DC Pedophilia thread. I just figured your lengthy silence was a sign that you were diligently working on getting back to me. I mean it’s not like you to take passing shots at my posts and then turtle up after I respond to you, right…

And let’s try to be more original with the “fantasy world” stuff. You already pretty much said the same thing to The-Doctor a couple days ago. Come on, try and be a little more creative than that.


If you are going to paraphrase me at least have the courtesy to get it right. I said that there is no discernable connection between the Grove ceremony and “ancient, Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon, mystery religion ceremonies”, and I also said there is nothing in the Cremation ceremony that I can identify as being uniquely Canaanite or Babylonian. That’s what I said and I stand by that. Like I’ve mentioned before, no “expert” has yet to take apart the ceremony and point out specific occult elements that are unique to various parts of the world or unique to certain religious ceremonies. Just pointing out that the cremation ceremony contains a pyre and a monument does not suddenly make it into a Canaanite or Babylonian ceremony. It’s just an assumption.

When the high priest bellows “Begone, Dull Care”, I can identify that the word “Begone” has a long tradition tracing back to cultures like the Druids, the Greeks, and the Sumerians as a method of “banishing” (ie: exorcising) meddlesome spirits. And I can also identify that the phrase “Begone, Dull Care” came from a play written in 1687 by John Playford, and was also used in a 19th Century version of Macbeth. I can also identify that the script of the ceremony isn’t derived from Satanic or Druidic incantations, but from the Bohemian Grove plays of 1904, 1907, and 1920, and written by Will Irwin, George Sterling and Charles K. Field. See Sun, when I study the cremation ceremony my observations are based on facts and hard evidence. It seems to me that your observations are based on surface reasoning and the stuff you want to believe from the likes of Alex Jones.


“Just google lilith”? Golly, now why hadn't I thought of that? After all, Google is the premier tool for every researcher who craves in-depth analysis and thorough documentation. Right?

Ah, good ol’ Lilith. Wasn’t I the one who had to point out to you that the Burney Relief probably was not the foxy, Canaanite babe you thought her to be? But I didn’t have to tell you that, right, because you have Google, and G