It was a very well written post that rang true. I see no problem with liking it.

When someone experiences God it is a very special time in their life and I can relate to the experience the writer was speaking of.

I do understand the other side. However, when someone realizes that God is 100% real they are not going to agree with that side or accept it as fact in their life.

as i skeptic i think this topic is perfectly fine it's a legitimate question, although it has degraded in the last few pages too people going off topic the question is still valid and is not in anyway trying to press anybody's beliefs nor trying to convert anybody. I'm with WWF on this one even though I disagree with his beliefs he has done nothing wrong you don't like it Go Post Somewhere Else

Thank you very much, Walking. I feel it's such a personal experience. It's like an inner knowing.....sometimes I just can't put it into words. It's not about going to church; it's about what I feel inside. I'm not saying people have to believe or feel the way I do. I'm just stating my experience with this. And it looks like you can really relate to this, Walking.

And I can respect Cradle of Fish's opinion:



I feel God is manifested in many experiences. As far as objective evidence, I can understand. There are lots of people who need proof of aliens, of UFO's, of Bigfoot, of Fairies, and the list goes on and on. While some people may develop their beliefs based on research, other people prefer to have objective and/or physical proof. We're all different.

So for me to say believe me because I'm right because I feel it to my core would be wrong on my part.

If you really understood where we were coming from 1st off you wouldn't have started this thread and 2nd you wouldn't be 100% sure it was real.
You have your beliefs and that's a good thing but please don't try to convince me and others of your god. I know what it's about all to well.

I agree with this. WWF if you truly that as they did than your faith wouldn't be lasting too much longer now would it?

Can you re-word that please...i tried to make head and tail of it..but the grammar was out of touch

Once again, very well written.

Hehe, I meant to say "WWF if you understand their way of thinking, and think like they do, than your faith won't last much longer considering that their faith has died." I mean...IMO you can't know something, and then not know it. It's impossible IMO.

I am 100% sure.

Being honest, to me this is like a bunch of people trying to tell me fire is not hot or that fire is my imagination and not real at all. However, I've experienced fire so I know better, just as I have experienced God and know better than to say He doesn't exist.

This doesn't mean I don't understand you. I know you have had different experiences than me which lead you to believe that my God may or may not exist.

I would imagine that if you come to a skeptics vs spirituality forum that you expect to run into people with similar beliefs as me, so I don't understand your complaint.

Also, I am trying to better understandthe depth of the skeptism. I know someone on here said something like they would believe in God if God had coffee with them. Seemed like a good honest answer to me. I actually have a lot of respect for this person's answer.

Now that you have re-worded it


You dont make sense

How on earth do you explain that - If someone understand how another feel about religion...all of a sudden this will effect their own faith WTF??


I fully understand the christian faith...I was taught it...practiced it...and on UM here..have read more than enough to UNDERSTAND what it is about a christian faith that makes christians stick by it....


I can tell you all about what you believe, how you see things, because COI I pay full attention to what you have been posting for quite some time now..............YET how much i now understand...STILL hasnt made my OWN faith in God get weaker..lol

If a christian understand skeptics...and sticks to their OWN christian faith................<----------------that means they are an intelligent christian by FAR now you dont seem to think you are fully capeable of this...guess you arent that good then

WWF - if you admit you are trying to understand the skeptic side of things............thats intelligence....and it helps you to understand posts more

It doesnt mean your OWN faith in Jesus will fade by doing so

You will be respected for it...and you will then notice more and more skeptics respecting you and what you believe in...................

I don't think I'd need to experience an actual manifestation of God to believe that he exists. Witnessing or discovering any of the following would probably suffice:

1. A talking snake (Genesis 3:1)
2. An amputee whose limbs regenerate by the power of prayer alone. (Mark 11:24)
3. A mountain moved by faith alone. (1 Corinthians 13:2)
4. Somebody who could survive drinking a pint of Ricin by faith alone (Mark 16:18)
5. Discovery of the ruins of the tower of Babel, supposedly the tallest man made structure in the world (Genesis 11 1:9)
6. Discovery of the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2)
7. Discovering that the Earth is fixed and that the Sun rotates around it (Ps. 93:1, Ps. 19:1-6, Joshua 10:12-14)

But on the other hand people can be in a meditative state and not feel fire nor suffer the effects of it. It's all how you interpret it.



I'm sorry, what complaint?

BTW I'm still looking for the statement about the looking inside yourself for the truth you seek. I'll post it when I find it.

Here I have to disagree. Where in the bible does it say God is not bound by time?

The first thing God does is create the 'Heaven and Earth'. He creates, God is performing an action that takes time. God cannot do anything if time doesn't exist because nothing can be done. If you wish to debate that God created time, then please explain how even He could have when no time existed for creation to happen. It is not a paradox, it is simply impossible. God and time may have sprung into existence simultaneously, but God is still bound by time as even He needs time to create His universe.

As for the premise about what it would take for me to believe in God. I don't think anything could. Some immensely powerful being could appear and proclaim itself as God but there would be no way of verifying that claim. Any being of sufficient power could pretend to be God as far as we were concerned.

I said I would respond when you give me the scripture reference. I want to read it in its context before I answer.

Just as I am 100% sure that the opposite is true.

Duh what?
read again. I said I'm still looking for it and would post it when I found it. Then you can answer, OK.

Sorry, I get ya now. lol

Perhaps...

Luke 17.20-21. Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is! Or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.”

...?

You couldn't..

Thanx eight bits, I think that's the one.

Hey WWF

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21 (Christ is speaking of the future)

But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. Luke 17:25 (He stated he had to first suffer in that generation)

Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:36 (Progresses to end times)

I would pair this with the following scripture.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:4

The Kingdom of God is within us through Christ.

In Christianity we believe that Jesus indwells within us when we receive the gift of salvation.

Ok thank you for answering that. Now I have a different interpretation. To me it's saying that you shouldn't trust what man tells you but find the god/energy within you. When he was telling the gang "the time is coming when you will long to see the son of man but you will not see it." He was assuming that when/if 24. "the son of man returns it will be like the lightning that flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other". I don't think he really knew what to expect if anything at all. That sounds like he thought that it would be the greatest most noticable thing he could think of at the time.
25. "But he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation". This says to me that when people turn to look inward as they are doing now, that they would be criticized and rejected. As many people are doing in the last 100 years or so.
I honestly think that he would be ashamed at how the men who assembled the book in his name have taken his teachings out of context for their own benefit. Constantine was a wicked man and only allowed what he deemed fit. If you read the Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls you will find things a little more in tact and a lot less fable like.
To me it doesn't say anything about the godself having to come through another person. That would be what you've been taught through someone elses interpretation.

Well if you stay in line with the Bible in terms of Christianity, it's pretty clear that we have to call upon the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ) to be saved. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it talks about finding "god/energy" inside you.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Basically, over 40 years i have come to understand a little about the nature of god, who is definitely a real physical entity. It exists mostly in a different phase or dimension to us, as you might expect from an entity which is capable of manipulating matter, time and energy. However, it not only permeates our whole space time continuum, but has a particular interest in humans (perhaps because we are, at a very basic level, capable of interacting with it)

There is only one god, but it manifests in many shapes and forms for different purposes, or so we can understand it in our own cultural referents; and at times it actively phases into humans, (or perhaps it is always there within us as part of our nature, but needs to be connected to our conscious self) providing them with the ability to perform what we might call supernatural or paranormal feats (in simpler times these were called miracles.)

Once god manifested to me, I became aware of him within both myself, and the world around me. Before that I denied, and was also unaware of, his existence.

To answer your question specifically. At the age of about 21, god sent an angel in the form of a pillar of fire. This spoke to me in a masculine and authorative voice, then instantaneously removed a nicotine addiction of 5 years or so.

Over the years the same God also appeared in prophetic dreams, which allowed me to see the future for fun and profit, (god has a real and sometimes weird sense of humour,) but these are rare and random flashes.

On 3 occasions the same voice has given me warning of the need to take action to save my life. One required an instant response, one gave me about 15/20 minutes warning, and the other was in a dream which alerted me to the need to watch out for three potential threats to my life. Two of these have come true so far, and in each case, because of the dream, I had enough awareness of the situation to change my future and survive.

Waiting in hospital for major surgery, (triple by pass) an angel in the form of a young man brought me a bible, when bibles were banned from that hospital for reasons of political correctness. When i opened the bible, the verse was the one which says "fear not for, I am watching over you, and no harm will come to you."
The young man looked perfectly normal, but exited my room via the balcony door. That balcony was 5 floors above ground, with no access to any where else. In other words, the young man disappeared.

I do not seek to convert others to my way of thinking, which in itself continues to evolve as more evidence becomes available to me, but i do think people should know that for some people, god is as real as any other natural force, or being.

I guess that's why you have to step away from the dogma of the book in order to understand what I see. It clearly states in the book I'm reading "because the kingdom of god in within you." That to me says look inside for the answers you seek. That's the way I see it, sorry it doesn't fit in with your interpretation.

Global UFO sighting. The whole world see's it together.(ufo's being god)

All will be revealed one day.

Experiencing God in the physical world is something you never forget. God is just God.

Having thought about this for some length, I think I am ready to answer.

1 - 3 days without anyone dying an unnatural death ( no murders, suicides, bomb victims, crash deaths, etc. ) Three days of only those deaths which would occur to natural causes.

2 - the spontaneous blossoming of the deserts into veritible gardens of produce to feed the starving in those areas. ( manna, anyone? )

3 - The simultaneous public confession of ALL televangelists that they have been using religion and the belief of the gullible to line their own pockets and enrich their bank accounts.

4 - An end to the senseless wraggling over who's god is better.

Good answers

But a different person experiencing the same thing might attribute it to something else. A Buddhist might attribute it to a brief moment of enlightenment.

Do you think if you had never heard of the Bible and Jesus, you would attribute that experience to them? Probably not, its the reason why we dont find born again christian colonies in the middle of Africa that never encountered christianity.

My point is, it's safer to say you think that experience was 'God' than to be sure, because you could be absolutely wrong.

Sorry, I do not think as simply as this. There have been times that were shown of a complete recovery from someone I know that almost died from injuries in a car accident, and I did pray to God. That did not sway me to go orthadoxed. It could have been a coincedence. Also, there have been times, that occurred to me, and makes me think there is something that I believe is very good and helps me, and that could keep me from thinking towards the same line of thinking as you.

I think nothing will sway me, because I have seen too much in varying different levels that just seems to be questioned at all times in my head and heart. I also question why someone else, strangers in fact, would care whether I swayed to God or not, when they do not show any other concerns of my welfare during my lifetime not dealing with God. And that does happen, atleast within my life.

God of the bible?
That is another thing with my belief. I feel I believe in a higher power, but within the context of a book? I have a problem with material things intermingled within spiritual realms. That's just me, so that is another thing stopping me from being swayed.

Well, and that too.



Ok, now I want to correct myself. This will definately convince me. When coffee is mentioned, and if God wants to bring it, I'll kiss his apostles and everything. *winka winka*



He said he 'wanted' to, not he stated it as a fact. It's his opinion and desires, and that in itself is no basis to call someone ignorant!

according to jesus - he's about 2000 years late. he was to return before the lifetime of his disciples. his return was eventually 'forgotten' ( they gave up waiting and didn't preach about it )after he didn't . until it was picked up again some generations later.

"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB)

Matthew 10:23 also has Jesus telling his disciples that the second coming will occur before the disciples finish preaching in Israel: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)]

ehhh...I'd still be skeptical, honestly I don't think there is really anything that could happen in my life to make me believe.

Prove to me that it's God's work, and not the work of those that'd simply rather me believe in their God. You can't, so you can't actually verify that it's God's work.

On top of that, I was Christian for almost 18 years. And let me guess, the oh too common "You did something wrong!" comment is going to come out of one of you soon. So easy to predict, because we all know it just CAN'T be true that God did not help someone seeking him correctly! So let's all just make up an excuse and give him an interview to make sure he followed God in the correct way, and then critisize every puny fault we find or make up!

Sure, seems like a logical question.

Did you follow all God's commandments for 18 years? Did you pray daily? Go to church regularly?

If not, how did you seek out God?

If you predicted this approach, who am I to disappoint you.

Hello, WalkingWithFire.



I detect some moving of the goalposts here. Earlier, back on the first page of this thread, your threshhold for God's cooperation in our search for him was:



Zero of Deism reported that he tried that, and it did not work. Your answer is that he should have tried something more, which is to say, something else.

What was wrong with your first suggestion? Do you now retract it, in order to amend it?

Furthermore, earlier in the thread, I publicly prayed to Jupiter. To be candid, I did not expect much when I wrote the prayer, but everything in the prayer was sincere, and its words faithfully reflected what was in my heart.

I represent to you on my honor that I received a prompt and personal answer to my prayer, characteristic of messages from Jupiter to his children from time immemorial, i.e. thunder and lightning, consistent with the suggestion contained in the prayer itself.

Such an event is well within what would pass for a "miracle" throughout the times that the Bible was being compiled.

Jupiter is not a jealous god. You may enjoy his love and still maintain your devotion to the Three-who-are-One.

Why can you not consider adding Jupiter to your pantheon, and accepting him as one of your personal saviors?

I don't discredit the existence of a spirit being named "Jupiter" nor any other spirit being that people claim to know or worship. I also believe there are other spiritual beings that can do things that seem miraculous. However, I only serve One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Fair enough. Your answer reminds me a lot of Darkwind's suggestion about


(Spiritual being with miraculous-seeming powers, god ... Would the Father quibble over trifles?)

I'm still concerned that those goalposts really do seem to have moved, but that's between you and Zero of Deism. Darkwind may yet have a point or two about the proselytizing, too, no offense.

But I do appreciate your reply. Thank you.

Intresting...I haven't heard of a spirit called Jupiter...can you tell me more about this spirit??

Jupiter is the chief god of the classical Roman pantheon, almost identical to the Greek Zeus.

http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/ar...es/jupiter.html

WalkingWithFire was, perhaps, a bit reserved to call him a spirit.

What would make me believe in a 'God' as defined by us as the 'All' is if he were to show up at my door with Death at his side, disguised as a painter named Chance.... Allowing me to see both and choose for myself which one I choose.

The light? Or ALL the light?

And perhaps if I were to win the lotto on Wednesday... that would convince me too.

I agree completely with BM too - how do we know spirit isn't Jupiter? Or subconcious? Or the Dark side of 'Gods' light too?

I see your side most clearly too and applaud you and everyone for open minds in all directions.
Its now my 'personal' belief that God/Creation/Evolution...whatever you 'call IT' is here. We just dont
recognize ALL of 'it' yet. Cuz we only still look at half and argue over the other 'half'.

Light is light...'black' AND 'white'.
The REST of 'light' is heat, fire, movement, ability to burn AND feed and warmth and death and birth. The first 'light' that we all seem to 'agree' upon is that of 'Fire'... which we say was one of Man's 'turning points' in time. Yet we fear a place or a thing depsite all that good, cuz somewhere, someone called it Hell. And Hell's Fire.

That same fire cooks my food, keeps me warm and allows me to see in the dark.
I don't care what anyone else calls it. It's worth my recognition in either way, under any name.
Including subconcious/art/music/fear/love...etc....or Fire or Spirit or Jupiter or Instincts.
Mine saved my ass last night. I believe that too.

I dont think the Christian God can exist because of all the hypocrisy and nonsence thats in the bible. that is why I would always have a doubt.

AHA I once thought that also...but when i removed mans handy work aka the bible..and kept the idea of god actually existing..only NOT as man has protrayed him in the bible...my personal faith in God was born

I dont let man put me off Gode