A recent book, Abusing Science, by Philip Kitcher (1982, MIT Press, Cambridge, Mass.) presents a detailed analysis of "scientific creationism." Kitcher discusses, chapter by chapter, the creationists' strong points, along with their criticisms of evolutionary theory. In conclusion, he states to his satisfaction that there is no substance to the creationists' claims to superiority of theory.

In the final chapter, "The Bully Pulpit," Kitcher believes himself to have at last discovered the fundamental reason for the debate between creationists and evolutionists: the issue of human morality. He provides numerous quotations from creationist authors which blame the theory of evolution for all of society's evils. The lengthy list of problems include aggressive wars, racism, promiscuity, homosexuality, and communism. Kitcher claims (perhaps rightly so) that evolutionary theory is not the source of all these evils.

He then proceeds to make a case for the recently developed concept that the morals of a society can be the natural result of evolutionary processes. In other words, man's mind has evolved so that introspection is possible, and with his ability to reason from cause to effect, certain societal behaviors may be advantageous for survival. (Kitcher's position forces him to swim upstream against a spate of semipopular and popular literature written by pro-evolutionary authors. These claim that many abhorrent social traits are rooted in an evolutionary past and that our present war-like, sexual, etc., behaviors are merely remnants of a more primitive stage).

While Kitcher may claim that belief in evolutionary theory is not the basis of society's ills, he fails to recognize an even more fundamental issue. This is the question of who determines the basic morals of a society and what is the end result of this particular choice. Practically speaking, for most of the people on this planet, social morals are determined by their society. Divergent moral codes found throughout the cultures and regions of the earth thereby take on a relativistic position. Thus man himself becomes the final arbiter and determiner of his moral system. It is this relativism that the creationist cannot abide.

Creationists claim that man cannot determine morals, because these must come from an all-wise and loving God if society is to function optimally. The creation of man, his fall from grace, and the Divine rescue mission all shout loudly of man's inability to determine his moral values. So, while evolutionary theory does not contain the elements of society's ills, it does provide a philosophical basis for moral relativism which surely is the basis of these ills. It is this contrast between relativistic morals and divinely given morals that will forever be the basis for conflict between these two powerful ideas.

THE PROBLEM OF MORALS

Would you say that humans can determine their own morality with success, without this moral code being given from a Divine source?
Are we as humans sufficiently advanced, culturally and socially for us to do away with "God Given Morality"?

Discuss

Firstly, to answer your question, one would have to define success.
Is it moral to eat the flesh of your defeated enemies?
Some cultures believed so.
Is it moral to tear the still beating heart from a human to sacrifice to one's gods?
Some cultures believed so.
Is it moral to relegate a segment of a society to "property" status based on the pigmentation of their skin or ethnic background?
Some cultures believed so.
Is it moral to persecute others based on their religious beliefs?
Some cultures STILL believe so.


Humans have always determined their own moral codes. Some have attributed those codes to gods, but that is just to provide the ultimate form of authority, in my opinion. Just as the "Divine right of Kings" malarky that was popular for centuries.

But due to that very relativistic morality you mention, can we honestly say that mankind can live without a God Given or absolute morality that doesn't depend on the social mores that are in fashion or even on whether the majority agree with it or not?

That is definately a hard question to answer. It all comes down to experience when dealing with morals. Different experiences yield different morals, therefore resulting in whatever beliefs they build for themselves. But what really gives us our morals would be our will to live...that is where the key to all of this lies. Where does our will to live originate? Without it we probably wouldn't exist in the first place. You can see it in all cultures and religions. There is a strong belief in preservation of human life. But what humans lack is the understanding to live with one another, therefore their morals degrade.

I'm sure I have more to say on this subject, but I do believe I'd move to far off topic. Carry on...

Whose "god Given" morality would you like to see as the rule of the land?
The Christians?
The Hebrews?
The Muslims?
The WBC's?
The Branch Davidians?
The Quakers?
Amish?


Pick wisely.

Actually, if we take it in abstract, all of the above follow the same concept of morality... their implementation of that concept is what differs from one to the other.

Welcome to UM forums The Dreamer, I hope you have a long and profitable stay with this forum and that we all benefit from your input...

I would argue that tendencies in our biology from our evolutionary history lead all societies to similar kinds of moral rules. Pakistanis, Americans, Botswanans, and Lithuanians all have something in their moral code along the lines of "be kind and generous"; it's the specific subjects of those things that varies from culture to culture, with most societies reserving requirements for moral behavior to those in the "in-group".

Keep in mind that the religious side of this is far from clear, because this isn't a debate between those who believe in rules of men and those who believe in rules of God; it's between those who think morality is a human-derived concept, and those who believe in absolute moral codes that other human beings claim to have received from God.

You for got one, the Pagans. PICK ME... PICK ME!


If morality was given to man by one God then all the morals would be the same, but they are different. In some cultures it is ok to take a bride at 12. Here it is not. Morals are apart of our adaptation to living in groups.

If we look at the different present day cultures one will almost certainly find similarities, but how much of that is due to cultural transference and how much of what is moral is actually inherent in the individual?

I find that by looking at widely varying cultural outlooks one sees some similarities (probably based on mutiual survival of the group) but some incredible discrepancies...

The punishment of offenses is a good place to start with such an issue, where in one culture it is acceptable to take a life in another it is not, in one culture one will be punished with death, in another it is not...

Really? Sooooo you are OK with the following:
Intruding on the private grief of people, displaying your opinion of their childs sexuality.
treating women as property, dictating how they dress, act, and who they may be seen with.
Considering a charismatic group leader as a messiah
Discarding technology of a certain time era
Not eating the flesh of certain animals, because they are "unclean"
Denying a woman the right to choose whether or not to be a mother
The total segregation of the sexes.


To me, "God Given Morality", is a misnomer. It is not something each of receives from god, but rather what someone has told us THEY received from god.
IF and UNTIL a god-like entity announces to every single human what its divine mandates are, they are merely human ideas.

Got a pet peeve? Suggestive dancing, perhaps? Then just say "God, He don't like that there dirty dancin....." and bingo, a "divine law" is born.

Aren't you just saying that you can't respect any authority structure pertaining to God?

I understand (and at least partially agree with) the sentiment, but isn't it just an application of skepticism and pessimism? Or can't you reconcile yourself with the idea that God might tell somebody else something without telling you? (just a logical exercise, I don't mean anything by that.)

Notice how I pointed out that these were "general tendencies" and not specific rules? Essentially every society has rules along the lines of "take care of kin", "be honest", and the like for members of their societal in-group; it's in how they are specifically expressed (such as one thing being a "kind" act in one society while something else might be a "kind" act in another. )

Incidently, that last paragraph about evolution leading to "moral relativism which is surely the root of societies' ills" made me laugh my ass off. Most criminals don't act criminally because they think there are no moral standards that apply to them, therefore it's cool; they either justify it or simply don't think about it. Nevermind, too, that violence, drunkenness, and the like existed in great quantities equally in the past, in societies which strongly believed in absolute moral rules, and inculcated those beliefs in their members.

Skeptical, perhaps since I am not an adherant of the interventionist Chriso-Judaic god. Pessimistic? No.

Lets say you & I are lawmakers. We decide that drinking is a social ill that leads to violence, crime, and sexual abandon so we make a law making it illegal to drink more than one alcoholic beverage per day.
But here is the kicker: we don't tell anybody except for law enforcement agencies.

Imagine your surprise when, after downing two icy cold ones, a squad of Officers swoops down, cuffs you and hauls you off to jail.
"But Officer, what did I do?" you ask nervously.
"You are under arrest for excessive drinking. Don't squawk about it. WE know its against the law, you just have to trust us."

Does that make sense to you?

Now, picture this: In order to curb "immoral" activities, a long grey bearded Rabbi announces to his tribe "OK Listen up. I talked to God last night, and he gave me these laws........."


How can you state without a doubt that the lawgiver is being totally candid? That he doesn't have a beef against certain activities and is imposing HIS OWN agenda on all the people?

Why not many of us already have done away with 'god' given morality we are called atheists.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here; in fact I think your viewpoint is the proper one to take. In fact, laws are passed ALL THE TIME without the public being given sufficient notice. And citizens have run across secret laws in the past--not that you're going to hear much about it. All of these things are the harbingers of an authoritarian nightmare.

If you want my personal viewpoint, I think most things in the OT besides the ten commandments are elaborated upon, distorted, and basically made useless by the culture they were originally imparted upon. In fact, Jesus implicitly agreed with your authority figure example; he specifically said that Moses had made allowances for divorce--apparently, then, God hadn't. So this was exactly a case of people throwing their own beliefs in the works, even in the face of revelations from God. The teachings of Jesus are, to me at least, the most cohesive and logical concepts I have seen put forward as religious precepts. That's why I believe them.

So, yes, you're absolutely right that religion should be an individual revelation. I just think that it's dangerous to have a sense of entitlement about it--"if God wants me he'll show himself to me" would be a state of mind easily exploitable both by humans and potentially evil beings. God doesn't meet us on our terms, because our terms suck.

I would hope so. We already have laws against genocide, baby killing, rape, murder, looting, wife beating, slavery, war isn't a good thing, discrimination and more lovely things that faith harbors.

Quite frankly, if you're still on the "god gien morality" take a deep breath, brace yourself and then take a look to the world around you. We're moving ahead without you... Stay in your own little world while blocking out the reality all you'd like... Doesn't mean we will want to hate and hurt the same as you do.

So your concept of God-given morality comes from the Old Testament?

Well not all. I kind of smushed up the 4 big ones into one pile as their own religions overlap on their immoralities.

But still... Fact still can't be forgotten what the god of the ot did just because people want to solely focus on the nt. Not like the nt is much better...

So, who is the arbiter/announcer of what 'God-given morality' consist of?

Does God announce personally to every person that these are indeed His morals and we should abide by them, or do we rely on a person to announce they have been inspired by God to relate His morality to us?

All the so-called 'God-given' or absolute morality we see today is relative. We have no divine provenance definitively linking this morality back to God (with all due respect to the bible, torah, qu'ran etc). So, what would you accept as proof the morality you are given to live under is absolute or God-given?

You didn't get the part about applying the concept of morality, did you?

While murder may be universal, how we deal with murderers is cultural. When we assume that we can take the life of a murderer because an "eye for an eye# is justifiable doesn't mean that putting the murderer in jail is less moral or more for that matter.

I'm simply stating that we all know that we must not kill yet not all societies punish in the same way. The application of a moral code is different but the code itself remains constant.

You are talking of application of the code and not the code itself.

Actually, what I see of the world and its "morality" makes me pause and think...

If this is the secular humanity people are adhering to then please go on ahead without me...

Genocide laws - when do we see them applied?

Slavery in all forms - I don't see people doing anything but turning their eyes from it..

I can go on if you want...

War - It's only immoral when it doesn't serve your purpose... and your desires...

Quite simply that it has been shown to be the most effective after time has passed. It is one where all societies are most able to thrive. It is also a question of having that morality demonstrated in our daily lives as well as recieving from the Holy Spirit a confirmation that it is the best way.

Do agree with all of Gods law?

Not yet but I hope to get there...

Morality

“Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.” - Jerry Sturdivant

[size="3"][/size]morals...


hmm, the problem with morals, in any society or civilization, is that your always going to get someones elses morals forced upon you, 'my moral or be punished', which is a sloppy moral anyway, and it comes down to how you FEEL about COMPROMISING to someone elses values. I belive the instinctive human(read strong, survivor) is base and earthed, and knows that it is his own self which will guide him best. Gods have been invented all over, until we flourished to clash. All religions are different, all gods desire different things, and some the same, of course, love and praise right? I think we need to re-examine our accepted morals

My morals go as such... feel as much as you can, be glad and thankful of the one life you KNOW you have here, be true to self.......
ahh, but! another mans might go, first get the position, then get the wealth, then get the girl, whether or not children follow doesnt matter, though it would change how you see this person maybe. But his principal values, the first things that come to mind when he looks in himself, are far different than mine....and on and on....

To answer the question, even most sunday singing church goers live by their own bible altered morals. Besides, I think christianity and other organized religion too often encourages suffering, just as those in an ancient power would have you, suffering and paying. True humans I feel are freer spirits than this, and do away with the harness of religion and often state also. (This is not disrespecting the 'rules' of a 'god', rather, appreciating the values in yourself, and respecting that, because by following the order of a voice unknown to you, you disrespect your own intuition and self)

A tame lion would seem weaker, or less effective, than a wild one. Isn't morality, especially as enforced by others, another way of taming the wild, or beastly in man? Right now it seems a more difficult world for these wild-spirited type, rather a world very fit for conforming and discarded your inner urges. It's funny how time can sometimes change morals more than peoples across the globe do....

Good morals..anyone can have them...I dont believe they come from any devine source..I believe it is within a persons nature..who they are as a person...not what they have faith in or anything

To be fair...I have read some great posts from NB's who see really happy with their lives as they are..they have good strong morals...and from what I have picked up...they have always had them...it was just in the nature

That makes sense since good is basically what is logical and functional and evil is illogical and dysfunctional.

Morals are culture based and always have been. That Christian morals have become in some cultures a standard is because Christianity "won out" (through dubious ways of course) the inhierent cultural morals that were there before the introduction of religion. Every culture on earth of which there are thousands has a different cultural moral stance. Some have outright laws, others just traditions and modes of interaction that are accepable and those that aren't. What is considered taboo in one culture need not be in another. The idea that Christianity or any Judaic or Abrahamic moral is the be all end all of moral law is silly. They didn't invent it and other morals exist in the world today and will in the future. Morals basically are a survival tool.

Think of it this way, you are born into a tribe and they teach you through example and direct learning over time the customs and ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. If you suddenly decided one day that you wanted to leave your tribe and go to another that had a richer base of food for you couldn't just up and do that. You would have to be accepted first and then taught that tribes rules or face the consequences. Morals are a cultural salve that keeps the harmony of the tribe. But as I said before they also tie you or bind you to your tribe because you would be beholden to your tribe and could not just up and leave if you wanted to. There are pleny of examples of this throughout Native American culture and primary cultures throughout the world. Those laws "handed down" by god actually are handed down through generations of tribes intermarrying, and trading.

Morals are fluid even within our own western culture. Look at it this way, we say murder is wrong, you cannot kill another person. That is until a time of war, then you must kill. See the shift? Moral absolutism through religions like Christianity is just a theory it doesn't really exist in real life.

I think your sense of morals come from many influences.

But it is true that some people are just "born of good character" and morals (and yes morals can be defined).

Your family ,upbringing, your genetic makeup (temperament can be hereditary), your personal experiences and the beliefs that are programmed into you-all these factors shape your moral behaviour.

Some people are born good -some are greedy and unempathetic from the start and continue on with this behaviour.

It's your chemistry and how you are wired and your enviroment shape it and mold it further.

Oh behave !!

Yet isn't it funny that if you actually take the 10 Commandments, you will find something similar in nearly all societies. Remember, God works outside of the book too, he didn't just deliver his commandments on stone tablets, he has written them in peoples hearts, all over the world, even before there were missionaries to take those moral commandments to other nations.

Oh really? Care to provide some examples of these "universal" commandments that pervade ""nearly all societies""??

I don't recall anything in Hindu, or Confucian, or Shinto, or Buddhist religion about "not making Graven images", or "holding no other gods before me". Care to re-state that statement, or keep the over-generalization?

I'm not trying to argue anyone else's points for them, but I seem to remember early Buddhist religions being totally devoid of a God concept, with the first Buddha himself telling everyone that he was not something to be worshiped, and that in fact worshiping idols was not part of the Buddhist faith. Of course, that's changed in modern Buddhism, but I think the original sentiments were there in this one religion at least.

Yes, really!!

Here are some examples after a quick google...

The Golden Rule

The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply means "treat others as you would like to be treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights. Principal philosophers and religious figures have stated it in different ways,

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the lord." — Torah Leviticus 19:18

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." — Jesus (c. 5 B.C. - A.D. 32 ) in the Gospels, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:39, Luke 6:31, Luke 10:27

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the lord your God." — Torah Leviticus 19:33-34

"This is the sum of duty; do naught unto others what you would not have them do unto you." — Mahabharata (5:15:17) (c. 500 B.C.)

"What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." — Confucius (ca. 551 - 479 B.C.)

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." — Hillel (ca. 50 B.C. - A.D. 10)

"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." — Muhammad (c. A.D. 571 - 632), Hadith 13 of al-Nawawi's Forty Hadith.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" — Mahatma Gandhi

Another way to rewrite the rule would be "treat others as you would like to be treated, if you were them."

The "Declaration Toward a Global Ethic" from Parliament of the World’s Religions proclaim the Golden Rule (both in negative and positive form) as the common principle for many religions. The Declaration was signed by more than 200 leaders from 40+ different faith traditions and spiritual communities.

See: The Golden Rule

The Noble Eightfold Path

The Noble Eightfold Path is, in the teachings of the Buddha, declared to be the way that leads to the end of dukkha, or suffering. Essentially a practical guide of bringing about ethical and meditative discipline, the Noble Eightfold Path forms the fourth part of the Four Noble Truths, which have informed and driven much of the Buddhist tradition.

As the name indicates, there are eight elements in the Noble Eightfold Path, and these are divided into three basic categories as follows:

Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajñā, Pāli: paññā)
1. Right view
2. Right intention

Ethical conduct (Sanskrit: śīla, Pāli: sīla)
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood

Mental discipline (Sanskrit and Pāli: samādhi)
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

In all of the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path, the word "right" is a translation of the word samyañc (Sanskrit) or sammā (Pāli), which denotes completion, togetherness, and coherence, and which can also carry the sense of "perfect" or "ideal".

Though the path is numbered one through eight, it is generally not considered to be a series of linear steps through which one must progress; rather, as the Buddhist monk and scholar Walpola Rahula points out, the eight elements of the Noble Eightfold Path "are to be developed more or less simultaneously, as far as possible according to the capacity of each individual. They are all linked together and each helps the cultivation of the others".

In Buddhist symbolism, the Noble Eightfold Path is often represented by means of the Dharma wheel (Sanskrit: dharmacakra, Pāli: dhammacakka), whose eight spokes represent the eight elements of the path.

See: Noble Eightfold Path

Ma'at

Ma'at, reconstructed to have been pronounced as "Muh-aht", was the Ancient Egyptian concept of law, morality, and justice which was deified as a goddess. Ma'at was seen as being charged with regulating the stars, seasons, and the actions of both mortals and gods. As a goddess, her masculine counterpart was Thoth and their attributes go hand in hand. Like Thoth, she was seen to represent the Logos of Plato. Her primary role in Egyptian mythology dealt with the weighing of words that took place in the underworld, Duat.

The goddess Ma'at is the personification of physical and moral law, order, and truth represented as a woman, sitting or standing, holding a sceptre in one hand and an ankh in the other. Sometimes she is depicted with wings on each arm or a woman with an ostrich feather for a head.

The doctrine of Ma'at is represented in the declarations to Rekhti-merti-f-ent-Ma'at and the 42 negative affirmations listed in the Papyrus of Ani:

Declarations to Rekhti-merti-f-ent-Ma'at

Verily I have come to thee, I have brought to thee Ma'at.
1. I have driven away for thee wickedness.
2. I have not done iniquity to mankind.
3. Not have I done harm unto animals.
4. Not have I done wickedness in the place of Ma'at.
5. Not have I known evil.
6. Not have I acted wickedly.
7. Not have I done each day and every works above what I should do.
8. Not hath come forth my name to the boat of the Prince.
9. Not have I despised God.
10. Not have I caused misery.
11. Not have I caused affliction.
12. Not have I done what is abominable to God.
13. Not have I caused harm to be done to the servant by his chief.
14. Not have I caused pain.
15. Not have I made to weep.
16. Not have I killed.
17. Not have I made the order for killing for me.
18. Not have I done harm to mankind.
19. Not have I taken aught of the oblations in the temples.
20. Not have I purloined the cakes of the gods.
21. Not have I carried off the offerings of the blessed dead.
22. Not have I fornicated.
23. Not have I defiled myself.
24. Not have I added to, not have I diminished the offerings.
25. Not have I stolen from the orchard.
26. Not have I trampled down the fields.
27. I have not added to the weight of the balance.
28. Not have I diminished from the weight of the balance.
29. Not have I carried off the milk from the mouth of the babe.
30. Not have I driven away the cattle which were upon their pastures.
31. Not have I captured the birds of the preserves of the gods.
32. Not have I taken the fishes [with bait] of their own bodies.
33. Not have I turned back water at its season.
34. Not have I cut a cutting in water running.
35. Not have I extinguished a flame at its hour.
36. Not have I violated the times for the chosen offerings.
37. Not have I driven back the cattle of divine things.
38. I have not repulsed God in his manifestations.
I, even I, am pure. Times four.

42 Negative Confessions

1. Not have I done wrong.
2. Not have I despoiled.
3. Not have I robbed.
4. Not have I slain men: twice.
5. Not have I defrauded the offerings.
6. Not have I diminished [oblations].
7. Not have I despoiled the things of the god.
8. Not have I spoken lies.
9. Not have I carried off food.
10. 10. Not have I afflicted [any]
11. Not have I committed fornication.
12. Not have I made to weep.
13. Not have I eaten my heart.
14. Not have I transgressed.
15. Not have I acted deceitfully.
16. Not have I desolated ploughed lands.
17. Not have I been an eavesdropper.
18. Not have I set my mouth in motion [against any man].
19. Not have I raged except with a cause.
20. Not have I defiled the wife of a man.
21. Not have I defiled the wife of a man.
22. Not have I polluted myself.
23. Not have I caused terror.
24. Not have I committed offense
25. Not have I inflamed myself with rage.
26. Not have I made deaf myself to the words of right and truth.
27. Not have I caused grief.
28. Not have I acted insolently.
29. Not have I stirred up strife.
30. Not have I judged hastily.
31. Not have I been an eavesdropper.
32. Not have I multiplied my words upon words.
33. Not have I harmed, not have I done evil.
34. Not have I made curses of the king.
35. Not have I fouled water.
36. Not have I made haughty my voice.
37. Not have I have I cursed God.
38. Not have I committed theft.
39. Not have I defrauded the offerings of the gods.
40. Not have I carried away offerings from the beatified ones.
41. Not have I carried off the food of the infant, not have I sinned against the god of the town.
42. Not have I slaughtered the cattle divine.

See: Ma'at

The Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments, or Decalogue, are a list of religious and moral imperatives which, according to Biblical tradition, were written by God and given to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of two stone tablets. They feature prominently in Judaism and Christianity. The phrase "Ten Commandments" generally refers to the very similar passages in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Some distinguish between this "Ethical Decalogue" and a series of ten commandments in Exodus 34 that are labelled the "Ritual Decalogue".

10 Commandments

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol.
3. Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God.
4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
5. Honor thy Mother and Father.
6. Thou shalt not murder
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
11. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

A note on the 9th and 10th commandments in the above list. It is usual to put both of these into the same phrase thus making them aspects of the same commandment, "Do not covet".

It is also relevant to state that all three Monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam, hold to the ten commandments.

See: Ten Commandments

Yamas

A yama (Sanskrit), literally a "restraint", is a rule or code of conduct for living virtuously. The yamas comprise the "shall-nots" in our dealings with the external world.

Ten Yamas are codified as "the restraints" in numerous scriptures including the Shandilya and Varaha Upanishads, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Gorakshanatha, and the Tirumantiram of Tirumular. Patañjali lists only five yamas in his Yoga Sutras.

Ten Traditional yamas

1. Ahimsa: Nonviolence. Abstinence from injury, harmlessness, the not causing of pain to any living creature in thought, word, or deed at any time. This is the "main" yama. The other nine are there in support of its accomplishment.
2. Satya: truthfulness, word and thought in conformity with the facts.
3. Asteya: non-stealing, non-coveting, non-entering into debt.
4. Brahmacharya: divine conduct, continence, celibate when single, faithful when married.
5. Kshama: patience, releasing time, functioning in the now.
6. Dhriti: steadfastness, overcoming non-perseverance, fear, and indecision; seeing each task through to completion.
7. Daya: compassion; conquering callous, cruel and insensitive feelings toward all beings.
8. Arjava: honesty, straightforwardness, renouncing deception and wrongdoing.
9. Mitahara: moderate appetite, neither eating too much nor to little; nor consuming meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs.
10. Shaucha: purity, avoidance of impurity in body, mind and speech. (Note: Patanjali's Yoga Sutras list Shaucha as the first of the Niyamas.)

Five yamas of Patañjali

In the Yoga Sutras of Patañjali, the yamas are the first limb of the eight limbs of Raja Yoga. They are found in the Sadhana Pada Verse 30 as:

1. Ahimsa
2. Satya
3. Asteya
4. Brahmacharya
5. Aparigraha: absence of avariciousness, non-appropriation of things not one's own.

Niyama

Niyama is a set of behaviors codified as "the observances" in numerous scriptures including the Shandilya and Varuha Upanishads, Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Gorakshanatha, the Tirumantiram of Tirumular and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. All the above texts list ten Niyamas, with the exception of Patanjali's work, which lists only five. They comprise the "shall-do" in our dealings with the inner world, and Swami Vivekananda describes them as the second step of Raja yoga.

The ten traditional Niyamas are:

1. Hri: remorse, being modest and showing shame for misdeeds;
2. Santosha: contentment; being satisfied with the resources at hand - therefore not desiring more;
3. Dana: giving, without thought of reward;
4. Astikya: faith, believing firmly in the teacher, the teachings and the path to enlightenment;
5. Ishvarapujana: worship of the Lord, the cultivation of devotion through daily worship and meditation, the return to the source;
6. Siddhanta shravana: scriptural listening, studying the teachings and listening to the wise of one's lineage;
7. Mati: cognition, developing a spiritual will and intellect with the guru's guidance;
8. Vrata: sacred vows, fulfilling religious vows, rules and observances faithfully;
9. Japa: recitation, chanting mantras daily;
10. Tapas: the endurance of the opposites; hunger and thirst, heat and cold, standing and sitting etc.

In Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the Niyamas are the second limb of the eight limbs of Raja Yoga. They are found in the Sadhana Pada Verse 32 as:

1. Shaucha: in the traditional codification, this item is listed under Yamas; this word means purity.
2. Santosha: contentment.
3. Tapas: austerity.
3. Svadhyaya: self-study or study of spiritual scriptures.
4. Ishvarapranidhana: self-surrender.

Note that Yamas and Niyama are both from the Hindu religous texts and are directly connected with each other.

See: Yamas and Niyama

The Ten Native American (Indian) Commandments

The Commandments

1. Treat the Earth and all that dwell thereon with respect
2. Remain close to the Great Spirit
3. Show great respect for your fellow beings
4. Work together for the benefit of all Mankind
5. Give assistance and kindness wherever needed
6. Do what you know to be right
7. Look after the well-being of mind and body
8. Dedicate a share of your efforts to the greater good
9. Be truthful and honest at all times
10. Take full responsibility for your actions

See: The Ten Indian Commandments

I hope this satisfies you in regards to your question.

It does. Thank you for your effort in compiling these lists.

And you are correct. These are "similiar" to one another. In a very general sense. But that is because they are all rules of conduct. The grease, if you will, that allows a society to function. They do however, have differences according to their societies. It is like saying that all sports are the same because they have rules.

Yes exactly.

Note that I stated that one would find similar moral codes of conduct not exact the same word for word. The ideas behind these codes could be taken as simply the most effective way that a society has to function optimally, yet it is interesting that according to the bible, these codes are actually written in our hearts, it doesn't matter if one is a believer in the religion or not.

In essence that is why christians say that the Holy Spirit functions as our conscience on these issues.

Ah yes the famous atheist morality. I think Shania Twain says it best in her song Ka-ching...

Artist: Shania Twain

Album: Up!

Title: Ka-Ching


We live in a greedy little world--
that teaches every little boy and girl
To earn as much as they can possibly--
then turn around and
Spend it foolishly
We've created us a credit card mess
We spend the money we don't possess
Our religion is to go and blow it all
So it's shoppin' every Sunday at the mall

All we ever want is more
A lot more than we had before
So take me to the nearest store

Chorus:
Can you hear it ring
It makes you wanna sing
It's such a beautiful thing--Ka-ching!
Lots of diamond rings
The happiness it brings
You'll live like a king
With lots of money and things

When you're broke go and get a loan
Take out another mortgage on your home
Consolidate so you can afford
To go and spend some more when
you get bored

All we ever want is more
A lot more than we had before
So take me to the nearest store

Repeat Chorus:

Let's swing
Dig deeper in your pocket
Oh, yeah, ha
Come on I know you've got it
Dig deeper in your wallet
Oh

All we ever want is more
A lot more than we had before
So take me to the nearest store

Repeat Chorus:

Can you hear it ring
It makes you wanna sing
You'll live like a king
With lots of money and things
Ka-ching!


Yep, that is todays predominant morality alright...

And this is what I wish more people would realize.

It's why, even though I'm a Christian, I study these other text. The precepts of buddhism and others are really great precepts for living a good healthy life (to a point, if I agreed with all of it, I'd be a buddhist, as it happens, I'm not)

There's God's truth in all texts and precepts, not just the Bible.

Hmm very intresting thoughts MisMels....this would make a great thread actually..and im serious

How different texts can show truth in God..IE - songs...poems even

Yes, I agree with you, many people fail to realize that God works in many ways, and is not limited to working through the bible or through christians.

He has consistently revealed his moral laws throughout the ages, even before Abraham was around, we can see this as just one of those universal truths, but I think it is much more than that...

And yet another good point is raised...nice one Jor-el

this would defo make a great thread itself

Actually that's why I started this particular thread...

OH LMAO

OMG im a plonker

*back pedels* umm great thread Jor ...way to go...excellent stuff


*beams a red one*


*darts for the exist*

You bust me up BM, those are great smileys!!!

LOL goes to show you, I was only paying attention to you and missMels posts calling them all great ideas for threads...and lil did I realize it was the entire point of the thread LMAO...when you said that to me..I nearly fell off my seat laughing

then I took a redner and felt like --> C-YA!!!

What all those laws posted means in a nutshell, slap me and I'll slap you back. It's there in society as a generalized notion that if you do something to someone they can do it right back to you. I wouldn't call that the biblical god acting through anyone, more like people are people all the way back to the law of Hammurabi, an eye for an eye.

I mean come on... I was raised in an Eastern Mysticism household... I'm a Quaker today.

What's in my purse? A small copy of the Dhammaphada not the Bible. That doesn't mean I'm not a Christian, that doesn't mean that Christ isn't my Savior--he is. But God's truth and Word is EVERYWHERE, even in Whinny the Pooh.

This is why I get so upset when people pin Christians to the wall with the Bible. Many of us find God's Word everywhere.

I also apologize for being a little looney today.

My bf's neice was born last night and she's extremely ill. A final diagnosis has not been made, but tonight it's looking like she may have an extremely rare genetic syndrome, in which less than 100 cases world wide have been documented ever. It's fatal.

I'd be grateful if anyone who believes in God, or faith, or a notion of interconectedness send your good thoughts and prayers to her, but mostly to her parents who need all the strength possible right now.

Sending supportive thoughts to your neice, her parents and you.

What does money have to do with Atheism ?

I have seen materalistic Atheists and Christians


Christians happen to be the biggest supporters of the US Republican Party which for a "fact" serves the interests of the wealthy not the poor man.
Come again ??????

How about Cant Buy Me Love by the Beatles?

Can’t buy me love, love,
Can’t buy me love.
I’ll buy you a diamond ring my friend,
If it makes you feel alright,
I’ll buy you anything my friend,
If it makes you feel alright,
For I don’t care too much for money,
For money can’t buy me love.
I’ll give you all I’ve got to give,
If you say you love me too,
I may not have a lot to give,
But what I’ve got I’ll give to you,
For I don’t care to much for money.
For money can’t buy me love.
Can’t buy me love, ev’rybody tells me so,
Can’t buy me love, no, no, no, no.
Say you don’t want no diamond ring,
And I’ll be satisfied,
Tell me that you want the kind of things,
That money just can’t buy,
For I don’t care to much for money.
For money can’t buy me love.
Can’t buy me love, ev’rybody tells me so,
Can’t buy me love, no, no, no, no.
Can’t buy me love, love,
Can’t buy me love.