I for one have noticed a huge problem with a number of non christians (make note i said a number, not meaning ALL)
Is this...
A christian that believes his/her faith is the one and only true way, therefore will state this as much as possible
A number of non christians WILL rant about how these christians call it truth...they rant over evidence ect
I for one understand what faith means...and im living proof, you don't need to be a christian, to understand a christians faith
here is why....
WHen a christian says their faith is truth and makes it out to be so...........they have to do this, it makes sense to do it.......it has to make sense
If it didn't make sense to the christian, then why would he/she follow that exact path of God??
Why follow the faith if they didn't see it as truth??
The intelligent christians will in fact state clearly that its what they BELIEVE to be true <------------this guys, is what i call HONESTY.....reason as to how I see it as being honest, is because they are demonstrating what faith actually means...it's a belief
To the intelligent christian, they understand that any evidence is through what they themselves have personally experienced <--again pure honesty
I never will jump on a post, that states its their belief.....I only ever quote a post that shows arrogance and states it like fact and telling others they are wrong.....
A number of non christians do the exact same as the few christians that state their faith to be actual fact....allow me to demonstrate...
Exhibit A (from the non christian)
God does not exist, you lead a blind faith, you have no proof.
That is wrong, reason being, is because when you state - God does NOT exist, you are making it out like FACT...and thats something you cannot prove to be true, it is only true in your eyes
When a non christian does this.....
Exhibit B
I don't believe God exists, i have never experienced any sign of God <-----------that itself is pure honesty and it only comes from the intelligent non christian
How many of you, actually state that its just your belief that God is real or not real??
When you find yourself moaning over a christian stating how they see it as truth <----remember if they didnt see it as truth, then what is the point in following the faith??
You all follow what you believe is truth...if you didn't, then you would be wasting your time so when you state it as your belief...thats fine, cuz its understandable
I recall a thread once, were a few of my friends (not naming names)...did complain on how christians believe their faith is truth...I told them the exact same thing as I am stating in this thread....christian have to believe in it as truth, otherwise, there is no point in following their faith is there??
Full Version: The problem with Non Christians
I think you're saying that it is and it isn't alright to believe/not believe in God and state that belief as being the truth, but you seem to have a greater problem with non-Christians stating it than with Christians. I agree that there is no proof of God nor of God's non-existence, but that's just my belief. Dogma isn't much use at either end of the spectrum. Believing in a truth doesn't really cut the mustard, does it. A lot of 'truth' is symbology. One plus one equals two because we said so. If there really is a God I'm in for a hell of a shock!
It is that fine line, walking on the edge of a sword. From my perspective it is faith and belief in that “faith”, what ever the flavor. But I will agree that to some (please note not all) it is all or nothing. The reliance on “pure faith” or “pure science”, in my opinion, clouds the mind of both extremes of the god/no-god camps.
Here is a question for you to a certain extent does this throw the non-Christian spiritually active into the non-Christian side of the spectrum.
For me it is absurd to say that there is only one “true” path to a creator spirit. If an entity can create something like all the galaxies it seems that it would not limit its creations to one way but offer many avenues, if it cared at all. It is probably more a problem with refusing to admit that there is a possible different take on the entire idea, that is also a true path, just not one that is acceptable to the more strident and un-bending beliefs.
I agree that god/ess(s) can not be proven to exists any more than it/him/her/them can be proven not to exist. Isn’t it all perspective and belief?
I have never seen a quark, any one else ever seen a quark? What about an atom (for those who do not have access to a electron microscope. Do they exist, I believe that they do.
Do god/es(s) exist I do not know, I think that there is something but I am not sure it really give a hoot as to what we do, but I can not prove or disprove either way. Faith and personal perspective and belief. Pick your flavor but keep an open mind as to different perspective. My 2 cents.
Here is a question for you to a certain extent does this throw the non-Christian spiritually active into the non-Christian side of the spectrum.
For me it is absurd to say that there is only one “true” path to a creator spirit. If an entity can create something like all the galaxies it seems that it would not limit its creations to one way but offer many avenues, if it cared at all. It is probably more a problem with refusing to admit that there is a possible different take on the entire idea, that is also a true path, just not one that is acceptable to the more strident and un-bending beliefs.
I agree that god/ess(s) can not be proven to exists any more than it/him/her/them can be proven not to exist. Isn’t it all perspective and belief?
I have never seen a quark, any one else ever seen a quark? What about an atom (for those who do not have access to a electron microscope. Do they exist, I believe that they do.
Do god/es(s) exist I do not know, I think that there is something but I am not sure it really give a hoot as to what we do, but I can not prove or disprove either way. Faith and personal perspective and belief. Pick your flavor but keep an open mind as to different perspective. My 2 cents.
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Aug 5 2007, 11:18 AM) 
I for one have noticed a huge problem with a number of non christians (make note i said a number, not meaning ALL)
Is this...
A christian that believes his/her faith is the one and only true way, therefore will state this as much as possible
A number of non christians WILL rant about how these christians call it truth...they rant over evidence ect
I for one understand what faith means...and im living proof, you don't need to be a christian, to understand a christians faith
here is why....
WHen a christian says their faith is truth and makes it out to be so...........they have to do this, it makes sense to do it.......it has to make sense
If it didn't make sense to the christian, then why would he/she follow that exact path of God??
Why follow the faith if they didn't see it as truth??
The intelligent christians will in fact state clearly that its what they BELIEVE to be true <------------this guys, is what i call HONESTY.....reason as to how I see it as being honest, is because they are demonstrating what faith actually means...it's a belief
To the intelligent christian, they understand that any evidence is through what they themselves have personally experienced <--again pure honesty
I never will jump on a post, that states its their belief.....I only ever quote a post that shows arrogance and states it like fact and telling others they are wrong.....
A number of non christians do the exact same as the few christians that state their faith to be actual fact....allow me to demonstrate...
Exhibit A (from the non christian)
God does not exist, you lead a blind faith, you have no proof.
That is wrong, reason being, is because when you state - God does NOT exist, you are making it out like FACT...and thats something you cannot prove to be true, it is only true in your eyes
When a non christian does this.....
Exhibit B
I don't believe God exists, i have never experienced any sign of God <-----------that itself is pure honesty and it only comes from the intelligent non christian
How many of you, actually state that its just your belief that God is real or not real??
When you find yourself moaning over a christian stating how they see it as truth <----remember if they didnt see it as truth, then what is the point in following the faith??
You all follow what you believe is truth...if you didn't, then you would be wasting your time so when you state it as your belief...thats fine, cuz its understandable
I recall a thread once, were a few of my friends (not naming names)...did complain on how christians believe their faith is truth...I told them the exact same thing as I am stating in this thread....christian have to believe in it as truth, otherwise, there is no point in following their faith is there??
Is this...
A christian that believes his/her faith is the one and only true way, therefore will state this as much as possible
A number of non christians WILL rant about how these christians call it truth...they rant over evidence ect
I for one understand what faith means...and im living proof, you don't need to be a christian, to understand a christians faith
here is why....
WHen a christian says their faith is truth and makes it out to be so...........they have to do this, it makes sense to do it.......it has to make sense
If it didn't make sense to the christian, then why would he/she follow that exact path of God??
Why follow the faith if they didn't see it as truth??
The intelligent christians will in fact state clearly that its what they BELIEVE to be true <------------this guys, is what i call HONESTY.....reason as to how I see it as being honest, is because they are demonstrating what faith actually means...it's a belief
To the intelligent christian, they understand that any evidence is through what they themselves have personally experienced <--again pure honesty
I never will jump on a post, that states its their belief.....I only ever quote a post that shows arrogance and states it like fact and telling others they are wrong.....
A number of non christians do the exact same as the few christians that state their faith to be actual fact....allow me to demonstrate...
Exhibit A (from the non christian)
God does not exist, you lead a blind faith, you have no proof.
That is wrong, reason being, is because when you state - God does NOT exist, you are making it out like FACT...and thats something you cannot prove to be true, it is only true in your eyes
When a non christian does this.....
Exhibit B
I don't believe God exists, i have never experienced any sign of God <-----------that itself is pure honesty and it only comes from the intelligent non christian
How many of you, actually state that its just your belief that God is real or not real??
When you find yourself moaning over a christian stating how they see it as truth <----remember if they didnt see it as truth, then what is the point in following the faith??
You all follow what you believe is truth...if you didn't, then you would be wasting your time so when you state it as your belief...thats fine, cuz its understandable
I recall a thread once, were a few of my friends (not naming names)...did complain on how christians believe their faith is truth...I told them the exact same thing as I am stating in this thread....christian have to believe in it as truth, otherwise, there is no point in following their faith is there??
pretty good post!
you know, youd make a pretty good christian yourself if your journey lead you this way. maybe it has. but at least, as a nb, your trying to take the sting out of things.
QUOTE(Kane S. Latrans @ Aug 5 2007, 02:20 PM)
It is that fine line, walking on the edge of a sword. From my perspective it is faith and belief in that “faith”, what ever the flavor. But I will agree that to some (please note not all) it is all or nothing. The reliance on “pure faith” or “pure science”, in my opinion, clouds the mind of both extremes of the god/no-god camps.
Here is a question for you to a certain extent does this throw the non-Christian spiritually active into the non-Christian side of the spectrum.
For me it is absurd to say that there is only one “true” path to a creator spirit. If an entity can create something like all the galaxies it seems that it would not limit its creations to one way but offer many avenues, if it cared at all. It is probably more a problem with refusing to admit that there is a possible different take on the entire idea, that is also a true path, just not one that is acceptable to the more strident and un-bending beliefs.
I agree that god/ess(s) can not be proven to exists any more than it/him/her/them can be proven not to exist. Isn’t it all perspective and belief?
I have never seen a quark, any one else ever seen a quark? What about an atom (for those who do not have access to a electron microscope. Do they exist, I believe that they do.
Do god/es(s) exist I do not know, I think that there is something but I am not sure it really give a hoot as to what we do, but I can not prove or disprove either way. Faith and personal perspective and belief. Pick your flavor but keep an open mind as to different perspective. My 2 cents.
Here is a question for you to a certain extent does this throw the non-Christian spiritually active into the non-Christian side of the spectrum.
For me it is absurd to say that there is only one “true” path to a creator spirit. If an entity can create something like all the galaxies it seems that it would not limit its creations to one way but offer many avenues, if it cared at all. It is probably more a problem with refusing to admit that there is a possible different take on the entire idea, that is also a true path, just not one that is acceptable to the more strident and un-bending beliefs.
I agree that god/ess(s) can not be proven to exists any more than it/him/her/them can be proven not to exist. Isn’t it all perspective and belief?
I have never seen a quark, any one else ever seen a quark? What about an atom (for those who do not have access to a electron microscope. Do they exist, I believe that they do.
Do god/es(s) exist I do not know, I think that there is something but I am not sure it really give a hoot as to what we do, but I can not prove or disprove either way. Faith and personal perspective and belief. Pick your flavor but keep an open mind as to different perspective. My 2 cents.
we are not meant to possess absolute proof of god in the first place. such an event would nullify free will. i do believe, however, that the book of "revelation" is in reference to the day in the future when "Proof" of god will come to pass. free will becomes outdated.
what value could we place on faith if we KNEW that god existed?
“we are not meant to possess absolute proof of god in the first place”.
Why? If you are of any given faith, I don’t care what faith; the proof of the existence of your chosen deity is your faith. Isn’t it, is that not the whole point of it. Belief in an unknown and or a super natural being, that either watches out for you or judges you to some degree. If I were to agree that your deity of choice was the “one god” why would that exclude the possibility of possessing absolute proof of its existence? Sorry I do not understand this logic.
“such an event would nullify free will.”
Once again why? If you were to posses this absolute proof of the designated deity, there is the possibility that this would free you from the constraints and limitations of the popular beliefs of this same religion because if you knew of this proof I feel that you would not need the dogma and rhetoric of manipulative and self serving self anointed “Spokesmen” for this deity. The personal level of “true understanding” would in turn free you to choose the manner that you would or would not revere this deity. Just so you know I do not think that a deity of the scope and power that is implied would want the fawning adulation and butt kissing that can be prevalent in any organized religion. There would be no church that could say or present a purported belief or spin the context of “Holy Writ” that, if you had this proof, would color or alter the knowledge you had obtained.
i do believe, however, that the book of "revelation" is in reference to the day in the future when "Proof" of god will come to pass. free will becomes outdated.
I still do not get this logic. Your beliefs are yours, I hope that they bring you some solace. But I can not rely on what I feel is a mistranslated and edited words of that belief system, but thats my choice.
what value could we place on faith if we KNEW that god existed?
None or all! It would be your choice (free will)
Why? If you are of any given faith, I don’t care what faith; the proof of the existence of your chosen deity is your faith. Isn’t it, is that not the whole point of it. Belief in an unknown and or a super natural being, that either watches out for you or judges you to some degree. If I were to agree that your deity of choice was the “one god” why would that exclude the possibility of possessing absolute proof of its existence? Sorry I do not understand this logic.
“such an event would nullify free will.”
Once again why? If you were to posses this absolute proof of the designated deity, there is the possibility that this would free you from the constraints and limitations of the popular beliefs of this same religion because if you knew of this proof I feel that you would not need the dogma and rhetoric of manipulative and self serving self anointed “Spokesmen” for this deity. The personal level of “true understanding” would in turn free you to choose the manner that you would or would not revere this deity. Just so you know I do not think that a deity of the scope and power that is implied would want the fawning adulation and butt kissing that can be prevalent in any organized religion. There would be no church that could say or present a purported belief or spin the context of “Holy Writ” that, if you had this proof, would color or alter the knowledge you had obtained.
i do believe, however, that the book of "revelation" is in reference to the day in the future when "Proof" of god will come to pass. free will becomes outdated.
I still do not get this logic. Your beliefs are yours, I hope that they bring you some solace. But I can not rely on what I feel is a mistranslated and edited words of that belief system, but thats my choice.
what value could we place on faith if we KNEW that god existed?
None or all! It would be your choice (free will)
Soooooo the purpose of this thread is to show what again?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
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********
So proof that god exists is against free will, but if revelations is true, then free will is moot? Then why have it in the first place?
Why does "proof" negate "faith"? Do you have faith in your spouse or best friend? If they did something to verify your faith in them, would you no longer have faith in them?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
********************************************************************************
********
QUOTE
we are not meant to possess absolute proof of god in the first place. such an event would nullify free will. i do believe, however, that the book of "revelation" is in reference to the day in the future when "Proof" of god will come to pass. free will becomes outdated.
what value could we place on faith if we KNEW that god existed?
what value could we place on faith if we KNEW that god existed?
So proof that god exists is against free will, but if revelations is true, then free will is moot? Then why have it in the first place?
Why does "proof" negate "faith"? Do you have faith in your spouse or best friend? If they did something to verify your faith in them, would you no longer have faith in them?
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Aug 5 2007, 01:40 PM)
Soooooo the purpose of this thread is to show what again?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
********************************************************************************
********
So proof that god exists is against free will, but if revelations is true, then free will is moot? Then why have it in the first place?
Why does "proof" negate "faith"? Do you have faith in your spouse or best friend? If they did something to verify your faith in them, would you no longer have faith in them?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
********************************************************************************
********
So proof that god exists is against free will, but if revelations is true, then free will is moot? Then why have it in the first place?
Why does "proof" negate "faith"? Do you have faith in your spouse or best friend? If they did something to verify your faith in them, would you no longer have faith in them?
I don't know anywhere in the Bible that states we have complete free will. I believe there is God's will and then our will. If God wants us to do something, we're going to do it.
I believe you can experienced based faith in something. I know a lot of my faith in God is based on experience.
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Aug 5 2007, 06:40 PM)
Soooooo the purpose of this thread is to show what again?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
That atheists shouldn't state their point of view?
Or that they should preface such statements with an "I believe...."?
1st of all, who said anything about atheists?? I said non christians, that includes not just atheists but people like myself and other faiths that dont follow the christian God
I never once said atheists shouldn't state their point of view either JMPD....this is odd how you didn't read what was written, which is UNLIKE you, cuz normally you do understand a thread
I think when an atheist or other non christian states - I believe that your God does not exist, I dont belive in your statement <---------IMO that is a fair opinion and anyone with an ounce of wit would understand that is what he or she believes...and it makes SENSE to state an opinion like this, because it's what that person believes to be true THAT'S WHY
Just the same with christians...when they state --> I believe that jesus is God <---that's fine, cuz they are being truthful and stating what they believe...cuz after all it is known as a belief/faith for a reason...and it makes SENSE for them to state this opinion, because it's what the person believes to be true thats why
BUT when they are up in your face and say - You are wrong, Jesus is the only way blah blah <------------thats not right, cuz it is stated as an actual fact, and when you do this, you are begging for attacks!
QUOTE(Skim Milky @ Aug 5 2007, 04:50 PM)
pretty good post!
you know, youd make a pretty good christian yourself if your journey lead you this way. maybe it has. but at least, as a nb, your trying to take the sting out of things.
you know, youd make a pretty good christian yourself if your journey lead you this way. maybe it has. but at least, as a nb, your trying to take the sting out of things.
1st of all Karma...BM is NOT an NB............an NB is a non believer in God...I for one have always believed in God
The only real reason as to WHY you believe my OP was pretty good, is because it was a fair post...it reasons with BOTH sides............and with the faith I hold in the God in heaven that i follow, i believe I was given the gift of - understanding....and I am smart, I can step back from being baised
Too many narrow minded people tend to state that I am against chrisrianity.....but see what they don't realize is this -- I am smarter than they think, I do FULLY understand christianity, I used to follow it....but when I broke away from christianity...I saw a different light on it and was a lot more understanding than I ever was in the past
When you step away from something that tries to dictate to you how you should follow something (something could mean anything)........and you becaome in control of your OWN mind....and think for yourself and NOT how others expect you to think, that's when you understand BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE
I will never return to christianity, because I dont believe in it.......BUT that dont mean I don't understand it...ohh I understand it allright, I understand as to WHY people follow it...actually, I understand as to WHY many people follow different paths, and that just doesn't include christianity...it means any given path....its all understandable
The trick is - to fully understand the simple words like FAITH & BELIEF <---------------if you can understand what those words mean...you will find yourself looking at the bigger picture...it all becomes clear
If you let your ego get in the way....you get fustrated
Just remember BM here may well understand a christians right...but she also understands a non christians right <---thats why I wouldnt be a good christian, buecause a real christian is not supposed to understand where others come from...
In reality - If two of my friends male and female...fell out, and one came to me with a sob story on how the guy was a right pig ect...........I wouldnt allow her story to cloud my judgement on the guy...I would need to hear his side of the story too...cuz there is ALWAYS two sides of a story................just like this issue....I believe that atheists and other non christians have a right just liek christians do
I stand corrected. I should have stated "non believers" rather than atheists.
However, dear Lady, this seems, IMO, that this is merely a rant about semantics. It seems ( i could be mistaken) that you want everyone to state clearly, that sentiments posted are opinion, or belief.
As in
"In my opinion......"
"I believe........"
Shouldn't it be obvious that when a person posts something, that it is their opinion?
just my opinion
However, dear Lady, this seems, IMO, that this is merely a rant about semantics. It seems ( i could be mistaken) that you want everyone to state clearly, that sentiments posted are opinion, or belief.
As in
"In my opinion......"
"I believe........"
Shouldn't it be obvious that when a person posts something, that it is their opinion?
just my opinion
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Aug 6 2007, 12:28 AM)
I stand corrected. I should have stated "non believers" rather than atheists.
However, dear Lady, this seems, IMO, that this is merely a rant about semantics. It seems ( i could be mistaken) that you want everyone to state clearly, that sentiments posted are opinion, or belief.
As in
"In my opinion......"
"I believe........"
Shouldn't it be obvious that when a person posts something, that it is their opinion?
just my opinion
However, dear Lady, this seems, IMO, that this is merely a rant about semantics. It seems ( i could be mistaken) that you want everyone to state clearly, that sentiments posted are opinion, or belief.
As in
"In my opinion......"
"I believe........"
Shouldn't it be obvious that when a person posts something, that it is their opinion?
just my opinion
Ohh i wholeheartly agree with you JMPD....have laways thought this...............but this forum has changed so much lately...haven't you noticed?? it's gotten too pushey..too many in other peoples faces telling others they are wrong and this is the right way...<--they do it, as if its fact and at the same time, dont care to see how it is disrespectful to others
I think this comes back to psychology. People will always think that they are correct; this is an artifact of being the only one inside your own head. Nobody else has your viewpoint, nobody else has been presented with identical life experiences, and therefore the conclusions are going to be dependent on the person. The key is to realize that everyone believes this, and offer an example rather than a lecture. Evangelism isn't about preaching fire and brimstone, it's about living your faith for others to see. Not through conspicuous prayer, or conspicuous charity; but through kindness, consideration, and withheld judgment. Evangelism--the real thing--is about living your life for others. Bettering those around you that they might see the truth in your actions. Anything else by that name is self-serving ego-stroking bias having nothing to do with religion.
Live your beliefs, don't peddle them.
Live your beliefs, don't peddle them.
QUOTE(Phyltre @ Aug 6 2007, 01:41 AM)
I think this comes back to psychology. People will always think that they are correct; this is an artifact of being the only one inside your own head. Nobody else has your viewpoint, nobody else has been presented with identical life experiences, and therefore the conclusions are going to be dependent on the person. The key is to realize that everyone believes this, and offer an example rather than a lecture. Evangelism isn't about preaching fire and brimstone, it's about living your faith for others to see. Not through conspicuous prayer, or conspicuous charity; but through kindness, consideration, and withheld judgment. Evangelism--the real thing--is about living your life for others. Bettering those around you that they might see the truth in your actions. Anything else by that name is self-serving ego-stroking bias having nothing to do with religion.
Live your beliefs, don't peddle them.
Live your beliefs, don't peddle them.
Good point ...thanks for the responce
hey as long as someones faith in intangibles does not affect me in any way shape or form
live and let live.
live and let live.
I always figured that Becky's Mom, was going to make a valid point despite the controversal, (or what I believe as a controveral) thread title. I think, the way I'm reading it, some Non-Christians (including myself) need to be grounded. I think you are right, Becky's Mom, there are some Non-Christians who are quick to lecture some Christians not to talk to others like we're suppose to see their God like they do, like actually truth. While it can be hypercritical to also say to Christians, and others, that to state that they should see what Non-Christians see as truth, when it is just as insulting and arrogant. You are right, we all should state our opinions to our beliefs, to what we think as our truth. Bottom line, no matter what could be seen as belief or truth, not one of us can dive into other's skin and vice versa, so it will be hard seeing their truth. From the ole saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure, so one person's belief will also be their own truth. If I could mangle that old saying for a point, if it's alright?
QUOTE(Stubbly_Dooright @ Aug 6 2007, 02:28 AM)
I always figured that Becky's Mom, was going to make a valid point despite the controversal, (or what I believe as a controveral) thread title. I think, the way I'm reading it, some Non-Christians (including myself) need to be grounded. I think you are right, Becky's Mom, there are some Non-Christians who are quick to lecture some Christians not to talk to others like we're suppose to see their God like they do, like actually truth. While it can be hypercritical to also say to Christians, and others, that to state that they should see what Non-Christians see as truth, when it is just as insulting and arrogant. You are right, we all should state our opinions to our beliefs, to what we think as our truth. Bottom line, no matter what could be seen as belief or truth, not one of us can dive into other's skin and vice versa, so it will be hard seeing their truth. From the ole saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure, so one person's belief will also be their own truth. If I could mangle that old saying for a point, if it's alright?
The problem for me arises with the fact that their "truth" involves ME (infidel) enjoying eternity of hell fire.
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can (why should) i respect someone whos EVERY decicion is made with this logic at the foundation of ALL they believe.
Anybody who has a theistic belief system, fundamentalist or moderate by default, recognises the infidel as a lesser..or at best.. has potential (potential convert)... consequently renders me a lower entity..an entity of less worth.
does it not?
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 10:37 PM)
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
If you don't believe what they believe, why would it bother you in the slightest? Now if it's not their beliefs that bother you, but their behavior towards you--then yes, you may have a point. In my opinion honest Christians respect all their fellow humans, there's no place in the NT for disrespect.
QUOTE(Phyltre @ Aug 6 2007, 02:49 AM)
If you don't believe what they believe, why would it bother you in the slightest? Now if it's not their beliefs that bother you, but their behavior towards you--then yes, you may have a point. In my opinion honest Christians respect all their fellow humans, there's no place in the NT for disrespect.
If you whole heatedly believe i will burn in hell for eternity for not accepting your lord, that is disrespectful
the only way for me to join you in heaven is to be "saved"
implying i have something to be saved from? what is it that i am to be saved from? what is it that i am doing so wrong?? living??
show me a theistic religion designed to co-exist peacefully with another.. there are none, so how are we ever going to get along without moderating pre existing religious laws? we cant.
this is why i believe every theistic religion has a contradictory existence, but believers choose to turn a blind eye to that.
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 10:37 PM)
The problem for me arises with the fact that their "truth" involves ME (infidel) enjoying eternity of hell fire.
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can (why should) i respect someone whos EVERY decicion is made with this logic at the foundation of ALL they believe.
Anybody who has a theistic belief system, fundamentalist or moderate by default, recognises the infidel as a lesser..or at best.. has potential (potential convert)... consequently renders me a lower entity..an entity of less worth.
does it not?
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can (why should) i respect someone whos EVERY decicion is made with this logic at the foundation of ALL they believe.
Anybody who has a theistic belief system, fundamentalist or moderate by default, recognises the infidel as a lesser..or at best.. has potential (potential convert)... consequently renders me a lower entity..an entity of less worth.
does it not?
Well, yeah, that person and their truth and how you fit in it, I do believe will treat you as such. I just do not think you should associate with them socially. Why do you feel that you must? Everyone is still entitled to their beliefs, because they feel that it is their truths. If you feel threatnend by your standing in their truths, doesn't it make it your truth too?
Here is an example of myself. I am definately not orthadoxed, but I an not an Atheist either. I do not believe in praying, but I do think praying is important for others. If someone wants to pray for me, who is it for me to stop them. I believe that praying for me is a waste of time. Their truth, not mine, and if that clashes, we do not have to be in each other's company socially. If it doesn't not clash, meaning that I can understand that my truth is not believed by someone else, yet they can see and respect that it is my truth, and I do the same for them, then a good relationship can florish. Why should it offend me, if someone else thinks I'm going to Hell. I don't think so, and I have basis in my heart to think it won't happen. You see, it doesn't affect me. Same goes for them on what I think if I cannot prove it, right?
I seriously do not think you should have a problem, if you do not see their truth as their own. Now, if they are treating you according to their truth, then they are not the type of person you should be hanging around with.
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 11:00 PM)
If you whole heatedly believe i will burn in hell for eternity for not accepting your lord, that is disrespectful
Forgiveness from what? Hate, anger, overindulgence, dealing callously with others, self-centeredness, wasted opportunities...sin. Yes, living.
As for Hell: it's not that simple, at least not for me. When Christ spoke of punishments, he rarely spoke in absolutes. Even "believers" get punished for their wrongs, because there's no such thing as a perfect believer. Personally I think the only way to end up in Hell, eternally, is if you genuinely want to go there--if you refuse to change, no matter how many chances you are given. Jesus did say that he was the only way to God, but he also said that just calling his name wasn't the way to Heaven. It's your actions and your--I believe it was translated as "heart condition"--that determine your worth to receive Christ's gift of forgiveness. But there are those who are so hardened, they refuse forgiveness. This, I believe, is the only truly unforgivable sin short of being a mass murderer or some other sort of incalculable monster. Just because non-believers were excluded from the early Christian movement (and even then the Christian message was fragmented into many dozens of contradictory works) doesn't mean they have no hope and are out of reach of Christ both in this life and the next.
I realize, though, that this belief sets even me against those who gave you these feelings towards religion. I can't speak for them--and even if I could, I fear there is nothing to say.
QUOTE(Stubbly_Dooright @ Aug 6 2007, 03:30 AM)
Well, yeah, that person and their truth and how you fit in it, I do believe will treat you as such. I just do not think you should associate with them socially. Why do you feel that you must? Everyone is still entitled to their beliefs, because they feel that it is their truths. If you feel threatnend by your standing in their truths, doesn't it make it your truth too?
Here is an example of myself. I am definately not orthadoxed, but I an not an Atheist either. I do not believe in praying, but I do think praying is important for others. If someone wants to pray for me, who is it for me to stop them. I believe that praying for me is a waste of time. Their truth, not mine, and if that clashes, we do not have to be in each other's company socially. If it doesn't not clash, meaning that I can understand that my truth is not believed by someone else, yet they can see and respect that it is my truth, and I do the same for them, then a good relationship can florish. Why should it offend me, if someone else thinks I'm going to Hell. I don't think so, and I have basis in my heart to think it won't happen. You see, it doesn't affect me. Same goes for them on what I think if I cannot prove it, right?
I seriously do not think you should have a problem, if you do not see their truth as their own. Now, if they are treating you according to their truth, then they are not the type of person you should be hanging around with.
Here is an example of myself. I am definately not orthadoxed, but I an not an Atheist either. I do not believe in praying, but I do think praying is important for others. If someone wants to pray for me, who is it for me to stop them. I believe that praying for me is a waste of time. Their truth, not mine, and if that clashes, we do not have to be in each other's company socially. If it doesn't not clash, meaning that I can understand that my truth is not believed by someone else, yet they can see and respect that it is my truth, and I do the same for them, then a good relationship can florish. Why should it offend me, if someone else thinks I'm going to Hell. I don't think so, and I have basis in my heart to think it won't happen. You see, it doesn't affect me. Same goes for them on what I think if I cannot prove it, right?
I seriously do not think you should have a problem, if you do not see their truth as their own. Now, if they are treating you according to their truth, then they are not the type of person you should be hanging around with.
exactly my point, and YES if this was a perfect world theists would keep their belief completely to them self, but their teachings does not encourage them to keep it to them self, the way its designed is to not be content in a world full on unbelievers, it encourages the "salvation" of souls.
THAT is disrespectful
and most religions are the same,
we are the right religion
the others are wrong
non believers are damned.
unless saved.
How can such an institution even still be recognised in the year 2007?
if we did live in a rational world, anybody adopting theistic views should be stripped of any position which involves decision making which can affect others, its fundamentally and morally unjust.
QUOTE(Phyltre @ Aug 6 2007, 03:41 AM)
Forgiveness from what? Hate, anger, overindulgence, dealing callously with others, self-centeredness, wasted opportunities...sin. Yes, living.
hang on, are you saying that ones life is void of these things once your lord is accepted?
is christianity the only institution to point out the negative implications of these things you mentioned?
NO!
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 11:48 PM)
hang on, are you saying that ones life is void of these things once your lord is accepted?
is christianity the only institution to point out the negative implications of these things you mentioned?
NO!
is christianity the only institution to point out the negative implications of these things you mentioned?
NO!
Did you miss where I said "Even 'believers' get punished for their wrongs, because there's no such thing as a perfect believer."?
of course there isnt, and trust me a "perfect believer" would get locked up
i notice that in your case, you read my posts like you read the bible.
Extremely selectively... addressing what ever suits you.
Ive met alot of christians, most who would question your interpretation of "gods word"
Extremely selectively... addressing what ever suits you.
Ive met alot of christians, most who would question your interpretation of "gods word"
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 11:59 PM)
i notice that in your case, you read my posts like you read the bible.
Extremely selectively... addressing what ever suits you.
Ive met alot of christians, most who would question your interpretation of "gods word"
Extremely selectively... addressing what ever suits you.
Ive met alot of christians, most who would question your interpretation of "gods word"
It is customary, when posting on a forum, to "address" whatever one feels one can formulate a response to. And, in fact, I already acknowledged in a previous post that other Christians might question my interpretation of the Bible. That was why I previous posted "I realize, though, that this belief sets even me against those who gave you these feelings towards religion." Fairly straightforward, I think.
Why are you being so negative?
Im not, its just that i address something you may have mentioned yet there is no acknowledgement to it nor intellectual discusion to further the topic
you just revolve around the same irrelevant point, thats all..
you just revolve around the same irrelevant point, thats all..
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 6 2007, 12:10 AM)
Im not, its just that i address something you may have mentioned yet there is no acknowledgement to it nor intellectual discusion to further the topic
you just revolve around the same irrelevant point, thats all..
you just revolve around the same irrelevant point, thats all..
My sincerest apologies. Please humor me by giving me something to acknowledge, or perhaps to intellectually discuss, and I shall do my best to further the topic.
lol, ok obviously i gave you more credit than you deserve.
QUOTE(Stubbly_Dooright @ Aug 6 2007, 03:28 AM)
I always figured that Becky's Mom, was going to make a valid point despite the controversal, (or what I believe as a controveral) thread title. I think, the way I'm reading it, some Non-Christians (including myself) need to be grounded. I think you are right, Becky's Mom, there are some Non-Christians who are quick to lecture some Christians not to talk to others like we're suppose to see their God like they do, like actually truth. While it can be hypercritical to also say to Christians, and others, that to state that they should see what Non-Christians see as truth, when it is just as insulting and arrogant. You are right, we all should state our opinions to our beliefs, to what we think as our truth. Bottom line, no matter what could be seen as belief or truth, not one of us can dive into other's skin and vice versa, so it will be hard seeing their truth. From the ole saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure, so one person's belief will also be their own truth. If I could mangle that old saying for a point, if it's alright?
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 5 2007, 11:45 PM)
exactly my point, and YES if this was a perfect world theists would keep their belief completely to them self, but their teachings does not encourage them to keep it to them self, the way its designed is to not be content in a world full on unbelievers, it encourages the "salvation" of souls.
THAT is disrespectful
THAT is disrespectful
I agree, and if they keep at it, I also think it's harassment. To those who do this, they are being forceful, and they should learn not to do it. It's like what happened to a friend of mine, a long time ago in a college. We have come to know the cafeteria cook by the first name, so there was a friendship there. Anyways, there was something my friend was going through healthwise, and the cook felt like pushing this friend to eat something, he felt would help her. He kept pushing until she yelled at him to stop and then she walked away. Found out, she told me she was allergic to the item being pushed on her. That cook was trying to cause harm and didn't realize it, because he arrogantly assumed he was doing right. In the end, he could have done wrong. Yes, to the point of constant pushing, pushing another belief, does not mean 'salavation', because that cannot be proven. I know, it cannot be proven that it's false, but the fact that there is no way that the one supposedly needing saving will not believe no way, and will evidently feel alienated no matter what.
Though, like people who have to call up and advertise stuff to people on the phone, or advertise something at the registers, while ringing someone out, (Ok, that is me, this is what I do, *shrugs* ), it is their job. But a good seller is one that stops at "No.". I do.
Now, for someone else who's belief compells them to 'spread the word', well it is their belief, but they do have to realize the other's belief is to walk away and not be followed. No one has a right to listen to anyone else. One does not have to be in the presence of someone else. Like I was always told about handling a phone solicitor, all you have to do is to say, 'I'm not interested', and hang up the phone. Just like that.
All you have to do is say, 'Thank you, not my belief, and walk away'. If they push, they are beyond their rights and invading yours.
QUOTE
and most religions are the same,
we are the right religion
the others are wrong
non believers are damned.
unless saved.
How can such an institution even still be recognised in the year 2007?
we are the right religion
the others are wrong
non believers are damned.
unless saved.
How can such an institution even still be recognised in the year 2007?
After being in retail in various places for all of my adult life, I wonder at a lot of things that still exists. Yet, they still do, and respect that you don't have to believe it.
QUOTE
if we did live in a rational world, anybody adopting theistic views should be stripped of any position which involves decision making which can affect others, its fundamentally and morally unjust.
Well, there are those who have views, and those who act them out. I think this is what makes those who are responsible adults to others. I think anyone who have beliefs and views of practically anything, will know not act it out on their various jobs, when their jobs say they cannot. I do believe it was probably stipulated to them when they accepted the job. They were not forced into that job. Those who do chose to take their views unto a different level in these jobs, should be fired. It's not the belief and views, it's those who have them. I think it just boils down to behavior. I believe that no matter how you feel, believe, and practice during your personal life, your behavior is controlled by you and you only. Those who cannot control their behavior, are the ones who should be stripped of their jobs.
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Aug 6 2007, 08:41 AM)
QUOTE(Stubbly_Dooright @ Aug 6 2007, 04:24 PM)
Well, there are those who have views, and those who act them out. I think this is what makes those who are responsible adults to others. I think anyone who have beliefs and views of practically anything, will know not act it out on their various jobs, when their jobs say they cannot. I do believe it was probably stipulated to them when they accepted the job. They were not forced into that job. Those who do chose to take their views unto a different level in these jobs, should be fired. It's not the belief and views, it's those who have them. I think it just boils down to behavior. I believe that no matter how you feel, believe, and practice during your personal life, your behavior is controlled by you and you only. Those who cannot control their behavior, are the ones who should be stripped of their jobs.
i agree with you too a certain extent, i strongly believe theists should NOT be given a position where by there decisions will directly affect others.
regardless of their behavior up to that point, the fact IS that their reason and logic at its fundamentals is based on a mythical institution, there is no way i am comfortable with the potential cost of this. i am for prevention NOT cure.
Just like if the opposition leader of a government in a country heading towards an election claimed that his religious beliefs lies in a institution that society now considers nothing but literary entertainment (greek gods, tribal beliefs etc)... he would not have got in the position he is currently in, if by some chance he did, it would not take long for society to point out how much of a clown he is.
off topic a bit perhaps. valid point never the less i think.
todays religion
tomorrow's literary entertainment.
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 6 2007, 08:06 PM)
i agree with you too a certain extent, i strongly believe theists should NOT be given a position where by there decisions will directly affect others.
regardless of their behavior up to that point, the fact IS that their reason and logic at its fundamentals is based on a mythical institution, there is no way i am comfortable with the potential cost of this. i am for prevention NOT cure.
Just like if the opposition leader of a government in a country heading towards an election claimed that his religious beliefs lies in a institution that society now considers nothing but literary entertainment (greek gods, tribal beliefs etc)... he would not have got in the position he is currently in, if by some chance he did, it would not take long for society to point out how much of a clown he is.
off topic a bit perhaps. valid point never the less i think.
todays religion
tomorrow's literary entertainment.
regardless of their behavior up to that point, the fact IS that their reason and logic at its fundamentals is based on a mythical institution, there is no way i am comfortable with the potential cost of this. i am for prevention NOT cure.
Just like if the opposition leader of a government in a country heading towards an election claimed that his religious beliefs lies in a institution that society now considers nothing but literary entertainment (greek gods, tribal beliefs etc)... he would not have got in the position he is currently in, if by some chance he did, it would not take long for society to point out how much of a clown he is.
off topic a bit perhaps. valid point never the less i think.
todays religion
tomorrow's literary entertainment.
I see your point, I do. I guess I'm reminding myself of the Religious Right, and other individuals. *Cough cough, Tom Cruise, cough cough*
I certainly think Pat Robertson is doing just that, and should be fired. The thing is, and I'm with you on the prevention thought, when does it not cross the line to bias non-hiring?
Faight in a ancient book, with out evidence is pure ignorance. Faight has to be earned not knocked into kids heads. I have faight in my wife because over the years I have come to have full trust in her, but to have blind faight is idiotic.
Very interesting.
This is a good thread Geri.
I think it's just general good manners to never tell someone else what they believe according to you. I also think it's awfully wrong and potentially dangerous to ply your opinion on someone else or even in general without prefacing that with an "I believe" or my "experience is"
Lately, respect seems to have flown out the window. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. And if you want to be respected, you must first respect others.
This is a good thread Geri.
I think it's just general good manners to never tell someone else what they believe according to you. I also think it's awfully wrong and potentially dangerous to ply your opinion on someone else or even in general without prefacing that with an "I believe" or my "experience is"
Lately, respect seems to have flown out the window. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. And if you want to be respected, you must first respect others.
QUOTE(MissMelsWell @ Aug 7 2007, 03:38 AM)
Very interesting.
This is a good thread Geri.
I think it's just general good manners to never tell someone else what they believe according to you. I also think it's awfully wrong and potentially dangerous to ply your opinion on someone else or even in general without prefacing that with an "I believe" or my "experience is"
Lately, respect seems to have flown out the window. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. And if you want to be respected, you must first respect others.
This is a good thread Geri.
I think it's just general good manners to never tell someone else what they believe according to you. I also think it's awfully wrong and potentially dangerous to ply your opinion on someone else or even in general without prefacing that with an "I believe" or my "experience is"
Lately, respect seems to have flown out the window. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. And if you want to be respected, you must first respect others.
That's what it's all about - manners and knowing and understanding that what you hold within yourself is just what you chose to believe
So when you state it is something you believe...you have a right to it...after all, why follow it, if you didn't believe it?
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Aug 5 2007, 07:18 AM)
I for one have noticed a huge problem with a number of non christians (make note i said a number, not meaning ALL)
Is this...
A christian that believes his/her faith is the one and only true way, therefore will state this as much as possible
A number of non christians WILL rant about how these christians call it truth...they rant over evidence ect
I for one understand what faith means...and im living proof, you don't need to be a christian, to understand a christians faith
here is why....
WHen a christian says their faith is truth and makes it out to be so...........they have to do this, it makes sense to do it.......it has to make sense
If it didn't make sense to the christian, then why would he/she follow that exact path of God??
Why follow the faith if they didn't see it as truth??
The intelligent christians will in fact state clearly that its what they BELIEVE to be true <------------this guys, is what i call HONESTY.....reason as to how I see it as being honest, is because they are demonstrating what faith actually means...it's a belief
To the intelligent christian, they understand that any evidence is through what they themselves have personally experienced <--again pure honesty
I never will jump on a post, that states its their belief.....I only ever quote a post that shows arrogance and states it like fact and telling others they are wrong.....
A number of non christians do the exact same as the few christians that state their faith to be actual fact....allow me to demonstrate...
Exhibit A (from the non christian)
God does not exist, you lead a blind faith, you have no proof.
That is wrong, reason being, is because when you state - God does NOT exist, you are making it out like FACT...and thats something you cannot prove to be true, it is only true in your eyes
When a non christian does this.....
Exhibit B
I don't believe God exists, i have never experienced any sign of God <-----------that itself is pure honesty and it only comes from the intelligent non christian
How many of you, actually state that its just your belief that God is real or not real??
When you find yourself moaning over a christian stating how they see it as truth <----remember if they didnt see it as truth, then what is the point in following the faith??
You all follow what you believe is truth...if you didn't, then you would be wasting your time so when you state it as your belief...thats fine, cuz its understandable
I recall a thread once, were a few of my friends (not naming names)...did complain on how christians believe their faith is truth...I told them the exact same thing as I am stating in this thread....christian have to believe in it as truth, otherwise, there is no point in following their faith is there??
Is this...
A christian that believes his/her faith is the one and only true way, therefore will state this as much as possible
A number of non christians WILL rant about how these christians call it truth...they rant over evidence ect
I for one understand what faith means...and im living proof, you don't need to be a christian, to understand a christians faith
here is why....
WHen a christian says their faith is truth and makes it out to be so...........they have to do this, it makes sense to do it.......it has to make sense
If it didn't make sense to the christian, then why would he/she follow that exact path of God??
Why follow the faith if they didn't see it as truth??
The intelligent christians will in fact state clearly that its what they BELIEVE to be true <------------this guys, is what i call HONESTY.....reason as to how I see it as being honest, is because they are demonstrating what faith actually means...it's a belief
To the intelligent christian, they understand that any evidence is through what they themselves have personally experienced <--again pure honesty
I never will jump on a post, that states its their belief.....I only ever quote a post that shows arrogance and states it like fact and telling others they are wrong.....
A number of non christians do the exact same as the few christians that state their faith to be actual fact....allow me to demonstrate...
Exhibit A (from the non christian)
God does not exist, you lead a blind faith, you have no proof.
That is wrong, reason being, is because when you state - God does NOT exist, you are making it out like FACT...and thats something you cannot prove to be true, it is only true in your eyes
When a non christian does this.....
Exhibit B
I don't believe God exists, i have never experienced any sign of God <-----------that itself is pure honesty and it only comes from the intelligent non christian
How many of you, actually state that its just your belief that God is real or not real??
When you find yourself moaning over a christian stating how they see it as truth <----remember if they didnt see it as truth, then what is the point in following the faith??
You all follow what you believe is truth...if you didn't, then you would be wasting your time so when you state it as your belief...thats fine, cuz its understandable
I recall a thread once, were a few of my friends (not naming names)...did complain on how christians believe their faith is truth...I told them the exact same thing as I am stating in this thread....christian have to believe in it as truth, otherwise, there is no point in following their faith is there??
speaking as an agnostic, the problem is the christians (and other religious groups) try to make "their truth" into everyone else's and even impose it by law or force.
this obviously does not apply to every religious person, but it does address the true nature of such disagreements. if belief was just simple belief, we wouldn't have the aggressive conflicts that we see associated with such issues. in fact, this problem is more common between religious sects than it is between religious and atheists/agnostics people. a lot of religious people assume that atheists/agnostics are simply non-religious, but we're not. we have thoughts and beliefs just as valid. we are not empties that want to be filled. we are whole people and we do not need to be preached to. our beliefs are simply based upon the evidence of science and the natural world. secular. if a religious person acknowledges (and back it up with sincere action) the their belief ends where mine begins (and the reverse)
and KEEPS THEIR BELIEFS OUT OF GOVERNMENT IN ACCORDANCE WITH MY CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE CONSTITUTION, I don't have a point of contention with them. I simply do not agree.
Faith is a personal matter and i don't want them sharing it with me.
It's like an alcoholic that always feels the need for you to drink with them.
Too often they seem to apply "their brand of truth" to everyone. Just the facts ma'am......( the sun is up there and lo and behold I can see it-feel it )....those I'll believe- the rest
I'll consider on my own . Some makes for good toilet paper-like "the watchtower".
"I am proofing the bible is the inspired word of god because here's the proof: the bible says so-see ? I am holding it in my hand-see ? i have a personal relationship with god and we chat-see ? Therefore it is so ! Can't you see-can't you hear and listen, you guys ask ? NO I can't see anything & what I hear -doesn't add up and I can hear you loud and clear. That is the problem in fact.
First of all I am not easily open to sub-conscious suggestion & secondly I don't need this belief to make it all make sense and third it is not "my deepest wish" .
I don't need a human (with all our faults relaying messages from god to me ) I don't trust humans that have hunger in their eyes.
If it's true for them they seem to think it's true for everyone. But most state it so "matter of factly". I can't stand this.
We are not or were not preaching our atheism/agnosticism-but we are rethinking this. I hope we start knocking on your doors soon. It's pay-back time.
I hope we flood our TV channels with "the good news" and the messages from nature & scientific research.
Because a brain is a terrible thing to waste.
I respect agnosticism because it is "intellectual honesty" and the fact is :"NO one knows" -non-believer nor believer" but you all claim to. It is "your "personal truth & personal universe
It's like an alcoholic that always feels the need for you to drink with them.
Too often they seem to apply "their brand of truth" to everyone. Just the facts ma'am......( the sun is up there and lo and behold I can see it-feel it )....those I'll believe- the rest
I'll consider on my own . Some makes for good toilet paper-like "the watchtower".
"I am proofing the bible is the inspired word of god because here's the proof: the bible says so-see ? I am holding it in my hand-see ? i have a personal relationship with god and we chat-see ? Therefore it is so ! Can't you see-can't you hear and listen, you guys ask ? NO I can't see anything & what I hear -doesn't add up and I can hear you loud and clear. That is the problem in fact.
First of all I am not easily open to sub-conscious suggestion & secondly I don't need this belief to make it all make sense and third it is not "my deepest wish" .
I don't need a human (with all our faults relaying messages from god to me ) I don't trust humans that have hunger in their eyes.
If it's true for them they seem to think it's true for everyone. But most state it so "matter of factly". I can't stand this.
We are not or were not preaching our atheism/agnosticism-but we are rethinking this. I hope we start knocking on your doors soon. It's pay-back time.
I hope we flood our TV channels with "the good news" and the messages from nature & scientific research.
Because a brain is a terrible thing to waste.
I respect agnosticism because it is "intellectual honesty" and the fact is :"NO one knows" -non-believer nor believer" but you all claim to. It is "your "personal truth & personal universe
lol that first post was stupidly long ( well just for me haha) but i agree. i usually have the opposite problem. having strong beleivers ranting in my face.
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 6 2007, 04:37 AM)
The problem for me arises with the fact that their "truth" involves ME (infidel) enjoying eternity of hell fire.
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can (why should) i respect someone whos EVERY decicion is made with this logic at the foundation of ALL they believe.
Anybody who has a theistic belief system, fundamentalist or moderate by default, recognises the infidel as a lesser..or at best.. has potential (potential convert)... consequently renders me a lower entity..an entity of less worth.
does it not?
How can i seriously respect someone who's truth is a promised existence in alternate reality while they truly believe that i will burn in hell, how can i be expected to respect them, and in turn have them respect me.
How can i enjoy life here along side someone who believes that our existence is limited by an impending doom..inevitably consuming all on this earth taking believers to heaven... and infidels cast to hell or something.
How can (why should) i respect someone whos EVERY decicion is made with this logic at the foundation of ALL they believe.
Anybody who has a theistic belief system, fundamentalist or moderate by default, recognises the infidel as a lesser..or at best.. has potential (potential convert)... consequently renders me a lower entity..an entity of less worth.
does it not?
yep, I'm afraid it does, for you are truly lost son.............................
in the REAL WORLD
QUOTE(Zombie Jesus @ Aug 6 2007, 05:00 AM)
If you whole heatedly believe i will burn in hell for eternity for not accepting your lord, that is disrespectful
the only way for me to join you in heaven is to be "saved"
implying i have something to be saved from? what is it that i am to be saved from? what is it that i am doing so wrong?? living??
show me a theistic religion designed to co-exist peacefully with another.. there are none, so how are we ever going to get along without moderating pre existing religious laws? we cant.
this is why i believe every theistic religion has a contradictory existence, but believers choose to turn a blind eye to that.
the only way for me to join you in heaven is to be "saved"
implying i have something to be saved from? what is it that i am to be saved from? what is it that i am doing so wrong?? living??
show me a theistic religion designed to co-exist peacefully with another.. there are none, so how are we ever going to get along without moderating pre existing religious laws? we cant.
this is why i believe every theistic religion has a contradictory existence, but believers choose to turn a blind eye to that.
So true !! Can someone answer that question ?
QUOTE(Spara @ Aug 8 2007, 09:40 AM)
lol that first post was stupidly long ( well just for me haha) but i agree. i usually have the opposite problem. having strong beleivers ranting in my face.
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
this is absolutely true except there are "too many" trying to "enforce" their beliefs-boldly & some think they are being sneaky.
Give em enough rope and they'll lasso in your constitutional rights which wer'e guaranteed -and teaching your kids illogical,distorted crap in public schools.
This is why we are so irate-we will give them alot of space until they start stepping on our toes (not alone mind,reason,logic-something that is not of much value to them-they do not respect their own humanity-because it is evil).
QUOTE(Spara @ Aug 8 2007, 08:40 AM)
lol that first post was stupidly long ( well just for me haha) but i agree. i usually have the opposite problem. having strong beleivers ranting in my face.
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
even though i accept many religions in my life. *shrugs*
people should just respect each other and their right to an opinion.
it'd save alot of stupid arguments
Yea I agree, it was stupidly long FOR YOU...only becaue it was about NON BELIEVERS/ non christians......and if you accept many religions in life...then WHY on earth did you bother to make a post??
It was aimed at those that cant seem to get it into their heads, that for those christians ect that see their faith as - TRUTH...<--fact is this...if they didn't see it as truth, then they wouldnt follow it period
too many non christians cant seem to grasp it
get it now??
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