I feel religion will die in the next generations and we will look back to religion as primitive beliefs and formats such as the burning of witches, Roman mythology, everyone is going to hell if they don't preach a certain religion etc.

Modern religion today i believe has been cut down severly to just our conscious as everything else becomes explainable. Through the ages we discover that the stories and teachings of them are false through applying science, social science logic and technology.

At first when joined this forum i was slowly able to learn to think free from confusion and ambiguity as i was born a Christian and it clouded my reason and i thought everyone in this forum that wasn't a Christian will burn in hell. What i believe in was all written in a book by people no better than us and was crammed into me by society and the influence of the environment as i grew up.

I find it somewhat futile now to believe everything that is written down by paper and i think it is only right if we seek our own truths imo. During the time period when i joined this forum i was also able to astral project randomly and discovered that that has atrributed to demolishing my resolve.

To be honest i still declare myself a Catholic and go to church with my family but deep down myself i refuse to believe in everything it teaches, thats about 90% of everything the bible says so does that still make me a Catholic?

Religion will probably never die out...the modern revealed religions such as Christianity and Islam will probably disappear within this century or next but man has a built in desire for a deity (probably harking back to the alpha males of our ancient non-human ancestors), so these religions will be replaced by another one (hopefully much gentler and kinder), which will run it's course and then toddle off the stage making room for the next religion.

I feel that the death of religion is eventually inevitable so long as we don't all die over religion.

A couple hundred years ago you might as well have been called a murderer if you were called an atheist. Today, as we head into the information age we see atheist numbers expanding everywhere all the time. People, at least in the western and eastern worlds, are getting turned off by religion's negative effects on the world today.

Well said

If religion dies out it will be followed by a period of time were athiests and the like are the majority...a few centuries will pass and we will find ourselves in the oposite situation. Atheism, science, and reason, would have runned its course and theism will bring spring again.

Religions can be created, discarded, or modified, but they will never be extinct.
The word religion may ceased to be used, changed to belief system or some other term, but religions, collects of spirituals beliefs, will never die off for the simple fact that spirits do exist.

I think you are right as far as organized religion fading out but spiritualism will continue to grow. I don't think atheism will be the majority but it is on the rise.
PS I grew up catholic too. Needless to say I'm now a n/b and have been for over 30 yrs. You need to be true to yourself and follow your own path. My family had a hard time at first but now they accept it and realize that I am much more than what I or they believe.

Only if you want to be a Catholic. You can be what you want to be. Take your time live your life as you want to.

I don't think religion will completely die out. There are still some of us who follow the old religions like Roman Gods, Druidry, Norse, and Egyptian beliefs. Even Abrahamic religion will have a time when they become out of fashion, but there will still be some die hards to keep them going.

How can they possibly survive is what I'd inquire... If they don't change they will not remain.. its the nature of things...LOL

But religions do change. Look at how many sects of christianity there are, and they don't burn Witches at the stake so much any more. Pagans don't do human sacrafice anymore. Revealed religions change more slowly than Earth religions, because they a tied to a book, but they still change.

KBA as recent as 1992 in my atheist phase i was regularly called names and threatened by theodicy.....I myslef have obsevered a growth away from dogmas at a rate that is stunning since the internet, ..

I am noticing now as i am in the public alot that those that are christian and this has happened alot as of late the last 4 years or so... I have met many that are very vocal that they donot follow the bible,I recently had a freind tell me she was christian and with tears streaming down her face wanting me to know that she is aware that the bible is very dogmatic but wanted me to know she doesn't embrace the bible as a tool for living...... i.. i felt that was so considerate to take the time to let me know she values love and peace...I do see religion as phasing out how can it not???

I was always under the impression that becoming Christian was a choice of spiritual conversion that one makes, after becoming conscious of seperation from God through ego and willful self-centeredness. Can you tell me more about being born a Christian? I did not know this was possible.

It does seem to make sense that if you don't believe in Christianity, then you are not a Christian. Are you confused by this?

Sadly enough the cure to this virus isn't widespread and it'll be a hard and long taste to get the cure of a good heavy dose of rational thinking to every woman, child and man out there. Tragic really.

Religion in some form will always be around.

yes Dark i concur change is natural and if one dosent' adapt they parish.. ...What is a revealed religon???

I don't think I could have said it any better than this.

That's like saying that oppressive governments are turning people off to the idea of government, or poor school systems are turning people off to the idea of public education. Any authority system WILL be abused by people in power within it, this is human nature.

Do you really think moving past religion will change basic human nature? People use religion as an enabler, a facilitator, and a unifier--the same way they use nationalism, or racism, or partisanship, or any other self-interest. It's easy to point at religion and call it negative, because it claims moral authority and any breach of this is clearly contradictory. For virtually any other human institution, though, this is non-news...it's just the way things are. If we completely abolished religion, other socio-cultural constructs would take its place.

Personally I can't see religion ever disappearing. Belief in any particular deity may cease, but so long as people feel a desire to control or be controlled religion, like politics, will always exist.

You're right of course you can't be born a Christian. But if you are indoctrined into the faith early enough you may as well have been.

Religion now for all intensive purposes is rather unneccessary in our modern society. We no longer need it to explain the origin of our existence, to offer spritual comfort, or to offer any other meaning to our lives. Why then would we not assume that religion will disappear from our consciousness gradually over time?

Well gee, as a religious person, I'd say I'd disagree.

I don't need my origins explained. So toss that one out.

I DO need it to offer spiritual comfort.

I DO need it to offer a certain meaning.

I'll throw in a 4th you didn't mention... I don't need life after death explained either.

No, my faith isn't going away, and interestingly enough, my particular sect is gaining in numbers for the first time in well over 100 years. Since we don't go out and make disciples, and don't actively encourage new members, that's pretty remarkable... and interesting. Goes to show that maybe people are drifting to religion rather than away from it.

I imagine there will always be an ebb and flow in regards to religion.

You can get that from non-religious sources if you look hard enough. Thats a problem right there, instead of seeking for answers yourself, organized religion has them prepared for you. They offer easy answers to hard questions.

"Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins" - Christopher Hitchens

But why is that a problem? If someone is happy with their faith, comfortable, why would there be a need to look for a non-religious source?

I do not understand why there is such a backlash on religion. I mean, it is your right of course. You're free to think what you wish about religion. But 99% of followers are not trying to change laws with religion as their guideline, or using religion as an excuse to discriminate against various groups, people, ideas, or social life. Most are just happy enough to get through their lives as painless as possible.

Look at America. What is our country, 73% Christian? Of that many millions of people, how many are truly trying to limit life of everyone to their view? Is it the fault of Christianity, or the fault of the few who use the religion to gain power in their favour?

It is the minority extremists that give religion a bad name. But who would listen if a christian stood up and picketed outside the court where Timothy McVey was being questioned? People are so quick to judge and say "Oh, they just don't want their dirty secrets to flow out into public eye...they're trying to give a different view of their religion than what it really is." Or who would listen if a muslim was protesting in the streets how the Glasgow attack was wrong, or how the train and bus bombing in London was wrong?

All of this happens, but noone pays attention or gives it any thought. Not even the news will give such things two minute air time. Nothing is good enough. No matter how much a religious follower tries to right the wrongs of extremism, noone listens. And that is why you do not see Christians protesting the wrongs of bombing abortion clinics, or Muslims protesting the wrongs of bombing buses.

This is a total load of crap. The only people that the bombers are going to listen to, is their kind. If the xians would take a stand and help put an end to their extremists or if the muslims would do the same with theirs we wouldn't have as big of a problem as we have.
Also, the 99% of those followers that you say aren't trying to change laws that benefit them are looking for those politicians to vote into office. So actually they are indirectly trying to change them.

But is what you have religion? Or is it a spiritual thing? Isn't it more so a spiritual connection between you and God from which you get life, love, happiness, joy, and peace? It has nothing to do with the organized religion part of it. It's more about the personal connection. Don't you guys believe that the Word is within and that one must look inside oneself to find the Light that is within them? That is not religious, it's spiritual.



This post here is a load of crap. You OBVIOUSLY know everything because you seem to think your so omniscient that you can conclude that Christians and Muslims AREN'T taking a stand against the extremists in their faiths. Extremists are people who are so set in their beliefs that they cannot be converted. The extremists who put their faith into violent action can only be stopped by death because nothing can change an extremist.

I'm sorry did I hit a nerve? I was responding to empressstar's post. If those factions were taking a stand instead of sitting on their hands and not helping with the problem, then it stands to reason the violence would be much less.

Umm, did your hashem tell you this or did you come up with this one on your own?
I believe you can change them. Just as you can change a gang member. The funny thing about humans, they for the most part are indecisive creatures and can easily change their minds. You just have to hit the right chord.

What i define as being 'born a christian' is that free will could be influenced by pathology. When i was born, i was baptised as a baby, enrolled into a catholic school by my parents, taught christianity at school, attended mass and was/is made to go to church each Sunday. Sure i had a choice but it was out of my control, the path to being born a Christian was predeterminely set the day i was born and mostly everyone travelling this direction will be brainwashed and converted to that religion without having a sense of freewill as it was made compulsory.

I believe that the revealed religions we have in the world at present will die out, and I think this would be a very good thing. I think people are beginning to realise that they can decide their own path in life and don't need to travel one that's already been paved by generations before them. Rules are spiritually constraining, and the absence of them is liberating. I think we'll see a change over, with christianity and its like losing numbers until it ceases to exist.

Sadly mankind has a habit of thinking that the grass is greener on the other side. So, just as we've got our act together and have realised that we truly can go it alone, when people have forgotten all about the oppressive nature of the religions they've left behind, some bright sparks will resurrect one, or two, in a new form but equally nonsensical and oppressive... and we'll be right back where we started.

Not really. There's only so much can be done with an extremist. I mean, extremists are people who think irrationally, that's why they're extremists. Not much sense can be talked into them.


Gang members are different. I have some friends who are gang members and the purpose of gangs (originally) is a very good purpose. You can change a gang member certainly, but that's because they joined the gang for a certain reason. You can't change an extremist. If you could, many of them would have been changed already. An extremist is one who irrationally is set in their beliefs and won't listen to or care about the opinions or safety of others. An extremist would bomb an abortion clinic to end innocent life. A normal person wouldn't. An extremist would send their child into a department store with a bomb on his back. A normal person would not. A gang member MIGHT kill innocent life, and I'm not saying all of them are good. But most of them have reasons, and drives, and if you can get to that driving reason you can change them from a gang member into a civilian. Of course, only one who has experience with gangs knows that a lot of times once your in you can't get out.

You and I are living proof that the religious can change, albeit we went totally different ways. But the fact remains that people can change their minds about anything when they have all the facts. BTW what do you consider normal? Normal means a lot of different things to different people. To an extremist, normal is how they believe and the rest of us are abnormal.
All I'm saying is that if people from their own religious structure don't take a stand, it will get worse for the world at large. They actually have more power than they are willing to believe.

A revealed religion is one which comes from a single source, such as a guru, a buddha, or the Bible.

well, considering I started off as an atheist or agnostic at best, I'd say you're wrong.

The interesting part is that I don't have questions and my form of religion doesn't offer any pre-packaged answers.

No kiddo, it's not just a spiritual thing... come on, you've read enough of my posts to understand that.

These are very interesting times. Religion will not stay the same - that's for sure. My sense is that we are all in the process of waking up from a long dream.

KB

How is it a total load of crap? I wasn't talking about appeasing extremists, but showing the regular average joe WHY their religion does not condone such things. So you're telling me if a bunch of christians or muslims get their act together, parade out in the streets, stand up to extremists that the extremists are going to actually listen? Say 'maybe I got this all wrong?" Apparently you've never met someone who has an unshakable mind once it is made up. Not to mention I highly doubt a terrorist is going to say over a loudspeaker what their plans are.There is nothing your average christian or muslim or any member of any other faith could ever do to make extremism go away. Extremism is a set-of-mind and it is about as 'winnable' as the war on drugs, obesity, bullying, middle class...etc.

I do not think that religion will die any time soon. For a majority of people worldwide, religion is still a major player in their lives; look at the Middle East for example. However, religion in the West in particular is undergoing a lot of change. IMO, the assumption that it will be replaced by what is perceived as its opposite, science, is not necessarily correct. Some people will not drop the supernatural, but only replace organized religion by other less conventional beliefs (It seems that Richard Dawkins is about turn his attention to "faith healers, psychic mediums, 'angel therapists', 'aura photographers', astrologers and others" on a TV program to be shown later this month). Personally, I believe religion and science can coexist , they need not be mutually exclusive. Religion's realm is the spirit, it must adapt to a changing world & accept that the Bible is not a science text book. Scientists also should acknowledge that there is place & a role for the spiritual in the quest for "ultimate understanding" of the universe-as argued by Paul Davies in his book "The Mind Of God". Also, referring to the theory of the Big Bounce , theoretical physicist Martin Bojowald said " then we're not able to determine the precise origin of the universe. It would always remain a philosophical scenario."( experiments were not sensitive enough to fully reconstruct the state of the universe before the big bang).

Has anyone ever tried to do anything? No they haven't. Appathy is all that comes from any group with extremists among them. Religion is also a mindset as much as the extremists that are part of it. If you sit back and do nothing how in the world do you know it won't work? Get up off your bibles and make it work. Change comes in numbers.

I dunno, my church along with several others ARE doing something about it... We even won a Nobel Peace Prize for our work at the United Nations in 1947.
http://www.afsc.org/

http://quno.org/

So that's what my church is doing about it... what are you doing?

(let me put in a caveat here... I don' agree with all the platforms we support, but I do support in most of them... I'm not sure I'm super hip on our stance on immigration, but I don't know enough to make a really educated decision yet.)

Well miss Mel I don't belong to any religion but I do belong to an international womens group and we help to support the women and girls that are affected by the extremist groups worldwide. I'm glad your group is part of the solution

I'd be interested to know which group that is.

I do like to see what others are doing, I think it's extremely important to understand what people from all walks of life and beliefs are doing to contribute to the solution.

You don't have to share which group it is if you don't want to, or if you prefer I'm always happy to take that conversation off line.

Yes, there are extremists in this world that I think do irreparable harm, but I've also learned over the last 25 years a few other things including ... you can't help people who don't ask for it. That's extremely important when dealing with very sensitive topics like this one.

And generalizations are VERY bad.. honestly, I think that's what contributes to 9/10ths of the worlds discord.

Judge people individually... Not as a group or by the group they belong to. Take a look at who they are as a person.

But you have to admit that handling extremists with a group is much more plausible than going it alone. What better group than their own kind can understand where they are coming from?

Of course it's much more effective, I'd never suggest it isn't.

A little history lesson... one of the reasons (one of many) we have separation of Church and State in the USA is because of the persecution my own church experienced at the hands of the British Government as well as the Puritans and other Christians in the USA. Several were strung up for their beliefs.

Because of this--and it's a subtle difference--My motto is "Stand for equality" ... my motto is NOT "Fight extremism"

It's subtle, but I really think there is a difference.

Unapologetic Atheism, Aggressive Secularism Growing in Europe
Without God, All Things are Permitted: Godless Atheists Promote a Valueless, Immoral World without Order or Structure ?


National Archives
Stories about growing atheists becoming more and more willing to be vocal, open, and unapologetic about their beliefs usually involve situations in America, but Europe is experiencing some of the same things as well. Although Europe is generally much more secular than America and probably has more atheists, there are still problems with the privileging of religion as well as religious intolerance which atheists have to contend with.

Atheists may have an easier time in Europe than they are experiencing in America. A recent survey in the European Union asked people about the values which they though represented Europe. The top answers were human rights, democracy, peace, and individual freedom. Religion garnered a mere 3% of votes — but imagine how that would have come out in America.

As Andrew Higgens explains in the The Wall Street Journal that one issue for European atheists which American atheists don't have to contend with is Muslim activism and even extremism:

Alarm over Islam has acted as the prime catalyst for much of the polemic. Europe's Muslim populace, estimated at between 15 million and 20 million people, is growing more numerous, more vocal and, in some cases, more religious. The clash also feeds on a deeper confrontation that dates back to Europe's Enlightenment, the 18th-century intellectual movement that asserted the primacy of reason over superstition. ...

The backlash against religiosity has even seeped into Europe's Muslim community. In February, Mina Ahadi, an Iranian-born woman in Cologne, Germany, set up the Continent's first Muslim atheist group: the National Council of Ex-Muslims. She immediately started getting death threats and was put under police protection.

"Our main message is: 'We don't believe,' " says Ms. Ahadi, talking in a coffee shop next to Cologne Cathedral, a towering tribute to faith that took 600 years to complete. A police guard hovered nearby.

Atheism, Ms. Ahadi says, must confront religion head-on -- and adopt its methods. Her group started with just 30 members in February and a month later had more than 400. It is lobbying European Union officials for restrictions on the veil and organizing a public meeting at which ex-Muslims will explain why they quit. "If you want to work against Muslim movements, you have to be like them," she says. "We have to go outside and say what we're fighting for." ...

Source: RichardDawkins.net

A recent example of the problems facing Europeans from Islam comes from Norway where Kadra, an activist of Somalian origin, was beaten unconscious by seven or eight men who appear to have been Muslims outraged at Kadra's beliefs:

"I was terrified. While I lay on the pavement they kicked me and screamed that I had trampled on the Koran. Several shouted Allah-o-akbar (God is great) and also recited from the Koran," Kadra told VG. Kadra linked the attack to recent remarks in VG where she said that the Koran's views on women needed to be reinterpreted. ...

Kadra's role in a 2000 hidden camera TV documentary revealing the positive attitude of Muslim leaders to female circumcision had a massive impact on Norway, and sparked new legislation.

Source: Aftenposten

The Islamic Council Norway has condemned the attack, which is good, but what do they do to ensure that attacks like this don't continue? Do they try to help mosques teach that violence against dissidents and critics is absolutely unacceptable? Do they try to help mosques teach that no matter how much Muslims might be offended at the beliefs or critiques of others, the only acceptable response is with more speech and arguments, never harassment, threats, or violence?

In fact, even moderate Muslims who unequivocally condemn such violence continue to insist that people should not "insult" religion — as if religion and religious beliefs should be privileged above all other philosophical, political, or personal beliefs. This is one of the primary roots of the problem, and why these moderates will not be effective in stopping such violence: they are trying to privilege themselves and their beliefs, which sends the message that others and other beliefs are necessarily inferior. They are denying others a right to speak out about religion (or Islam in particular) in any way that "offends" believers, which sends the message that one's feelings are more important than anyone else's right to speak.

Religious leaders are pushing back against the assertive unbelievers. The Church of England's Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, complained in a December statement about "illiberal atheists who have joined forces with aggressive secularists." He was responding to demands that Jesus be removed from nativity plays and that Christmas parties be called "winter festival" gatherings.

Mr. Onfray's atheist tract, recently translated into English, has prompted three book-length rebuttals by angry Christians and a flood of articles. To counter Prof. Dawkins's "God Delusion," an Oxford theology professor wrote his own book, "The Dawkins Delusion." ...

Muslim activism is encouraging other faiths to be more assertive. University of London professor Anthony Grayling cites violent protests by British Sikhs that forced the cancellation of a play in Birmingham in 2004, and Christian protests against the television broadcast of a London opera that featured Jesus dressed in diapers. Christians and Muslims both campaigned vigorously, but without success, to torpedo elements of a new British law that bans discrimination against homosexuals. Such faith-based agitation, says Mr. Grayling, threatens a "dark ages for free enquiry and free speech."

If fewer and fewer people consider religion important, are religious themselves, or even believe in any gods — much less consider themselves "Christians" — then what rationale is there for maintaining the fiction that winter holidays are still "Christmas" in a traditional, Christian sense. Ecclesiastical leaders like John Sentamu have a difficult choice to make here.

On the one hand, they can work to continue associating the Christian label of "Christians" with an increasingly secular set of celebrations, but this will help drain any Christian meaning from the label in exchange for preserving the impression that Christianity is relevant. On the other hand, they can accept or even welcome dropping the "Christmas" label in order to preserve it for Christian use and meaning, but in the process reinforce the message that Christianity is less relevant than ever.

Neither choice will appear to be very good from a traditionalist, Christian perspective, but that's because traditionalist Christians won't be happy with the growing secularization of society no matter what. This is just an unwelcome consequence of that secularization and there's no way to avoid confronting it — but if they think that they will be successful by confrontations that seek to limit free speech and dissent, they're just fooling themselves.


http://atheism.about.com/b/a/259012.htm?r=94

Thanx MLoM, that was very informative and enlightening as well as very true.

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And I am sure you can find triple that of muslims protesting over something as silly as a cartoon or pet food factory, but there are those who protest against the wrong doings in the name of their religion. Yes, people try, and they still do...and like I said before. Nothing is ever good enough.

I agree with ya Empress (I generally do

the media passes over the real good some people do within their own faith to stop the violence their brothers and sister perpetrate. Unfortunately, do-gooders and people doing the RIGHT thing don't sell product spots, magazines, newspapers... crazy extremists get the press and recognition.

I'm certain the reason why people hang on to the crazy extremists and feed off it in the media is because it makes the viewer feel better about themselves.

Do-gooders stories don't sell magazines, tv ad spots, newpapers etc... when your joe-average gets up and goes to work, lives in his own little world, and sees do-gooders who are fighting the good fight, Joe average tunes that story out, it makes him feel incompetent compared to the person that's doing something proactive. When he sees crazy extremists his attention is caught because he can confidently point his finger and say "look, I'm better than that!"

Wise words MissMel . Good news doesn't bring in ratings. It's the horrible atrocities that directly effect us in some way or another. You don't even see the crisis in Darfur as 'front page' news. Only something like the Sunday special rerun when all the news networks close down early. Something to fill the time slot.

Thats why I like reading articles from the Good News Network. Always something there to make you smile ^.^.

Personally, I think religion would only ever die if it offered nothing of value, at either a personal or a societal level. So far there is no sign of this happening, and in fact many individuals and societies seem to be experiencing a resurgence in the religious aspects of their totalities.

A couple of weeks back, I posted a topic with an article about Brain May, who was the noted guitarist for the band Queen. He's 60 years old now and is completing his doctorate in Astrophysics (he was working on that doctorate when he left school to persue the band). He's doing his thesis, his internship and research. He was offered an honorary doctorate and he stood up and said "I want it for real, for me".

I posted that story to see if it would get any responses... Not a one. The same article on MSN got about 70 posts...

Yet, threads like "Brittney Spears is a Ho" gets HUNDREDS, on a site like MSN, thousands, of responses... can you guess why? Brittney makes people feel good about themselves, they think they're better than she is. No one wants to comment on the REAL achievement of Brian May because it makes them feel inadequate.

People who feel superior about themselves buy lots of stuff and the media is standing right there ready to sell it to 'em.

That is true and so sad.
Brittany, Lindsay & Paris are terrible role models for young girls. Kids are so impressionable. But I feel the media and it's consumers are just as much at fault.
Everyone is a little at fault for this dilemna.

Have to agree with you on this. It's the old human nature thing. People do love to see bad things from other people because it makes their $hit look better. Although I have tried to set my mind on the good in people it makes me feel good and it causes less conflict in my world. I don't buy the BS the media force feeds me and I have the option to change the channel. HGTV is the place I like to be